Inter-family social class

[Bennifer]

I wondered if anyone had any experiences with what I would call an inter-family social class problem. In our family a rift has developed which I think falls along class lines. I was chatting with a friend this weekend, and although he hadn't thought of it like this, but on reflection, it has caused problems in his family.

In my family (my two parents, and me and my brother plus young children), there's a tension that occurs between my brother and the rest of us. I've come to the conclusion that's it's largely to do with class. We're (lower) middle class and he's working class. Let me explain. It's nothing to do with his job or his money (he has more money than me, although only marginally), but to do with attitudes.

I would describe my attitude as someone who reads books, eats healthily, occasionally goes to the theatre, exercises, goes cycling, etc. (as a disclaimer, I know these activities on their own don't make someone middle class, but overall, there's a correlation between that kind of lifestyle and class). I want to stress we're not aristos, going to the ballet or the opera every week. On the other hand, my brother and his partner eat less healthily, are overweight, don't exercise, don't read books, go to sporting events like speedway and darts.

It seems that this almost colours everything in our relationship, between what we talk about, what we do when we meet up, and an assumption (not entirely false perception) that one way of life is better than the other.

I'm fully expecting some responses to be dismissive (how could we be so horrible?), and some may think that social class either doesn't matter (although I suspect that most families would broadly call themselves the same social class, and when we see marriages, many people, if not most, inter-marry in a class sense) , or doesn't exist (I think this is definitely not the case).

Another perspective would be that it doesn't matter, as long as someone's happy, which I agree with to an extent, but it's difficult not to have expectations of a general form of life for your close family.

Is your last sentance the 'question'? Are you the one with expectations that your brother ought to climb a rung of the class ladder?

I don't think you can call it "social class" when it's a difference between one sibling and another, who were raised together in the same environment. All you're pointing out is that individuals have different interests and attitudes, despite having a similar background and upbringing. Which sort of proves that "social class" is a meaningless construct!

Unless you're trying to prove that his partner has "pulled him down to her level" by some form of contagion ....

There's not a question as such, it's not an expectation that he should climb a rung of the ladder, but firstly an observation that I think we are different social classes now, and secondly, and that it has caused a rift. Is it possible to overcome these differences? Does anyone have experience of this?

AMum, that's what my friend thought at first, but I think it's entirely possibly, almost by accretion to change social class over a period of time depending on your education, your friends, etc.

thats not what social class is. Money, education, living standards, thats social class.
For example, my DH comes from a nice 4 bed semi in the burbs, civil servant father, SAHM, education up to university (though drop out).
Me: council estate, single parent mother, long term benefits, education up to GCSE level.

We have managed to meet somewhere in the middle.

It sounds to me that your brother just lives differently to you, and you don't like it.

Hmm, you might be in for a bit of a flaming but I do completely understand what you're getting at.

I guess it depends who has the bigger problem. Are you looking down on him a bit because you think he's 'lowered himself'? Or is it more a case of his inverse snobbery and feeling like 'Who the hell does she think she is?', kind of thing?

There's not much you can do about someone else's low self-esteem/inferiority complex. But you can adjust your own attitude to be accepting of your brother and his choices.

If it's simply a case of feeling like you have nothing in common with him, well: welcome to families! The people with whom we have blood ties are seldom the same kind of people we'd choose to spend time with were it not for those ties. In that respect I don't think the situation with your bro is all that unusual.

I suppose we could disagree about what constitutes social class, it's a discussion in itself, but I think it's about education (I went to university, he didn't), but also the attitudes to things such as culture, what you do on your holidays, rather than money per se.

It's true that he lives differently to me, and also that I don't like it, but it struck me at the weekend that of the things that I think we disagree on, it seems that social class is at the root of it. In my RL, almost all of my friends are middle class (and I don't suppose I'm the only one like this)

madonnawhore,

being honest, it's a combination of the two - I look down to an extent (it's true) and I think he at the same time thinks of people like me (and people who went to university or who eat brie (I kid you not)) as "up themselves"

I suppose my point, it's true, is that this is just family life, I just thought I'd had (for once in my life) a mildly interesting thought about the role of class in family situations.

I guess it depends what you think "social class" is - I'd say it has more to do with background, education, and the expectations that you grew up with.

If you want to get over the problems, then you just need to stop judging him and his partner for having different interests than you - you clearly think they are not as good as you because of their interests, and I expect that comes across. You don't have to pretend to be fascinated by darts, but it's not fundamentally any worse sitting watching darts than it would be sitting watching polo.

I agree with madonnawhore, this is just families. The rift you talk about, is this stemming from db feeling you are somehow leaving him behind? Because it's entirely your choice how you live your life, and he, his.

I am poles apart from my sisters in lifestyle. I have big ties with the theatre, I am university educated, own two proporties, read and so on. They live in ex council houses where they grew up, work in trades that required hard work but no degree. We are just different but there is no rift, some teasins sometimes though. We are all products of a working class home though. I still see myself as working class. I don't think about it much mind you, and have no idea what one must achieve in order to magic themselves up a rung.

How are you lower middle class and your brother is working class?

Sorry if ive missed something but i dont get how two siblings can be different classes

AMum,

I think we're largely agree on social class, where of the three things, we have the same background, but have different educations and expectations.

True, I think I should stop judging, it's just very difficult.

I would add the point isn't about the darts, per se. I've got friends who work as lawyers and like darts, but it's the whole picture of our divergent lifestyles.

• providing that you both grew up in the same home with the same parents?

Amber,

I think it's as perfumedlife showed in her case. Where I would disagree with her that although she calls herself working class, I would describe myself as middle class. I think one's social class can change (as one would say the Middletons have)

I don't think that it is true to say that siblings are necessarily the same class, clearly background plays a large part but there is such a thing as social mobility. Your background will certainly dictate your class to some extent, if you were brought up working class nothing will make you upper class. I describe my mothers family as the sort of working class who think they are middle class, but aren't. My fathers family are middle class, but my parents divorced when I was young, so their influence isn't as great.

My dh has a similar background and I would say that our lifestyle and values are more middle class, my mother married again and my step father is working class. We are not so different, but there ARE differences. Values, language, aspirations etc sometimes it does cause problems.

They are very quick to say I'm 'snotty' and my mother says I always was even as a child. (I did feel more comfortable with my fathers family as a child). I don't know why it's ok for them to say that to me, but I'd never say anything similarly disparaging to them.

However I don't look down on them or think I'm better

sprogger, I've not, but I've heard good stuff about it. I'm certainly a believer that the class system is alive and well in this country, and I'm as much a part of that as the next person.

I would perhaps tend to say that in my family's case, the problem lies more with my brother (but then I would say that). I was fortunate, and went to university, and have over the past ten or so years, spent more and more time with middle class people. My parents didn't go to university, but I don't see any gulf with them. I perceive my brother as a little bitter, but I'm biased.

I think your circumstances can improve via access to education and better finances but i think your class stays the same regardless.

Just my opnion i know others think otherwise.

Is it not just a case of different interests. To me your class is based on your family of origin and since your brother and yourself come from the same family of origin. However you are 'aspirational' and he is not.

Neither is right or wrong. Just two different approaches.

It can be hard when you've nothing in common with your siblings and their new families. But it works both ways, he might find it tough going with you. But if he's a good person and makes an effort I would never get hung up on diet/hobby/superficial lifestyle differences.

You sound like a snob and you are pissed off that whilst you brother could be more middle class as he earns enough, he has remembered where his roots are and does not aspire to be more than he already is.

He seems happy, you? You seem like a stuck up ass.

My DH always says he feels like Rita from "Educating Rita" when he meets his family. His 2 brothers and 1 sister have basic jobs: bus driver, carpenter, doctor's receptionist. DH is now in the "professional" class having self educated and is now an expert in his scientific field. His family don't understand him, his mother once said "he doesn't have a proper job, he works in an office." I have a degree and am in senior management, and although they are generally perfectly nice people I have nothing in common with them and they drive me mad if I spend any more than a few days around them. They are baffled by me, I accept this.
They are thrilled one grand child has 8 GCSE and is going into the army. We are expecting our DD to go to university, and she is in private school.

Yes, it makes things challenging socially which is why we don't visit very often but DH phones regularly as his mother loves to chat.

Social mobility is always interesting when it happens to one sibling but not the others. In the end it is a question of outlook and what you have in common. My brother's wife is unremittingly wedded to poor food and a quite aggressive inverted snobbery, that is what she is like, nothing you can do about it. Siblings do grow apart and their marriage choices also play a big role. I rarely see my brother now, as my SIL doesn't want me to visit (or any of the family including her own). It's just one of those things.

On the class thing and whether one can change, I agree that you can't change entirely, so that it's not possible to go from working class to upper class (no matter how rich you can, or perhaps one can, but very, very rarely), but I think the differences between lower middle class, middle class and working class are quite fine, and can be changed.

I am a little bit snobby, no doubt, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I value thinks like education and culture, that means I'm inherently going to think it's a negative thing if it's not valued.

As for my brother, fabbychic, is that I don't think my brother is happy, and rather, I see him as a little bitter at how things have worked out for him. I see him having a lack of confidence and self esteem, which I think means he has limited himself. (I suspect you might be projecting a little what my brother suffers from, there's no way I've forgotten my roots, because I get on fantastically with my family, and am very proud of my middle class upbringing)

OP I don't really understand what your problem is. I come from a working class background and attend opera and ballet performances most weeks - I do so because I enjoy it. I also like eating fish & chips out of paper on the beach....

You're an adult, live your life on your terms & let your brother do the same without making lots of value judgements.

You sound a seenu bit crazy and a lot hung up on "class" when really there's
just a difference in aspiration and lifestyle

hairylights, I suppose you could say that, it's just I take the view that class exists, I know some don't believe in class, but when you say I'm mistaking lifestyle and aspirations for class, my reply is I'm not, I believe them to be the same things.

ladylapsang, I love fish and chips on the beach too, I'm not suggesting the two are incompatible at all