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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

When does remembering wrongly turn into gaslighting?

32 replies

PaperView · 09/04/2011 22:05

SO bloody confused. I have a good memory but lately i have apparently been wrong in my recollection.

OP posts:
HerHissyness · 09/04/2011 22:17

Come on, spill! Grin

Give us details and we'll give it our best shot!

What ELSE is bothering you?

bittersweetvictory · 09/04/2011 22:19

This might help
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/power-in-relationships/200905/are-you-being-gaslighted

Original poster
PaperView · 09/04/2011 22:20

BUgger...namechange fail Blush

HerHissyness ....??

Thanks BSV, i will have a look at that.

OP posts:
HerHissyness · 09/04/2011 22:27

Sorry, not trying to be clever or anything, just merely asking what is going on. Why is your recollection of actual events being doubted?

You know it's not a good sign. How can we help?

midnightservant · 09/04/2011 22:32

OH and me do this to each other all the time.

However, I am naturally more inclined to doubt myself.

We used to have endless arguments along the lines of 'but you said x' 'no I didn't what I actually said was y' - as if one of us was a perfect tape recorder and it was a question of who was right.

There is no way to settle this, since it is past and gone!

I have stopped engaging, to a great extent, when this starts to happen. My version may not be quite right, but it's good enough.

The other way we do it is to argue about the past. He made out some of my happiest times to be quite shit, and I have to remember it's my memory, of my experience.

lookingfoxy · 09/04/2011 22:59

Ugh, dp 'tries' to do this, but I shoot him down in flames every time.
I've told him if he doesn't stop, he can get out the front door and i'll be using his head as the battering ram.'
Its so fucking tiring .... and it usually descends into me telling him he's deranged.
If/when we split up, I totally pity the next person he gets together with!

BertieBotts · 09/04/2011 23:31

XP used to do it. I found it really hard for ages to differentiate between deliberate, abusive gaslighting behaviour and the other kinds - the trying to get out of something/"selective" memory kind, and the genuine forgetfulness. I can see the difference now I'm in a normal relationship and DP does the forgetful one and occasionally the selective memory thing

Basically in order of harmlessness:

Genuine forgetting - when you both think one of you said one thing and the other thinks another and in the end you both laugh and say "Oh who cares"

Selective memory - this is things like when you tell them about something they don't really want to go to so they helpfully claim that you never told them and they didn't want to go to. Or when they agree non-committally to do something and then deny they were ever asked. This is annoying and slightly manipulative but at a low level it's not really a big deal - if it's all the time though or on big things they KNOW will upset you or inconvenience you then it probably is bordering on malicious/abusive.

Then probably what I would term "true" gaslighting - this is the kind which sounds so insane it makes you doubt yourself and you know nobody would believe you if you questioned it anyway. One example XP did was that one day he'd put the oven on to heat up, I got to it to put whatever it was in and said "Tch, you only put it on 140, we'll have to wait a bit longer for it to heat up now" and turned it up to 200. He said "No I didn't, I put it on 200" and continued to argue this for about the next ten minutes while we both got more and more irate because I knew I had just turned it up and he just SAW me do it and why the fuck would I have needed to do that if he had got it right? This argument culminated in me asking why he thought I would lie about it and his answer was "To make me look stupid". Confused There was NOBODY THERE.

Another example I remember on a thread was where a MNer had two pasties in the fridge, one chicken, one beef. Her H ate one of them and then swapped the packets. So he left the beef one in the chicken packaging. And then he watched her while she ate it, almost daring her to comment on it. Or something like that - it was odd. Really weird. Just totally NOT something a normal person would even dream up, even as a joke or something.

Reaction is a good gauge as well - if you can both laugh it off and say it doesn't matter it probably is more likely to be innocent than if they push the issue and get annoyed at you or say things like "I can't trust you to remember anything" or "You must be going mad" etc.

garlicbutter · 09/04/2011 23:32

It's one of those things we all do sometimes - and children do it a lot. Say I'd left something of yours out in the rain and it was ruined. I hope I'd instantly confess and try to make amends. But, if I was scared of repercussions, I might insist you'd taken it outside yourself. Not very nice of me - and I would be gaslighting you - but I wouldn't be doing is a part of an insistent campaign to take control of your every thought and feeling. If I went on to do this more & more, telling you how scatty you are, maybe temperamental and irrationally suspicious - then I'd be abusing you. You could begin to lose confidence in your own reality, to question your own feelings and (my objective) to think it was, indeed, a good thing you had me to keep an eye on you.

After I'd started therapy, I saw what H was doing and told him, very firmly, to STOP telling me what to feel! He literally took a step backwards. The look on his face showed me he knew exactly what he was doing.

Original poster
PaperView · 09/04/2011 23:48

Thank you that's very helpful. 2 things today have been a total head fuck if you will excuse the phrase. Felt a bit more than Me remembering it one way and him remembering it another.

OP posts:
garlicbutter · 10/04/2011 00:00

Total headfuck not good. Especially if it's being done by someone you need to trust. Might I suggest you start keeping notes? Keep them to yourself!

Jellykat · 10/04/2011 00:07

If you explain it as a total headfuck, and it felt more then the normal 2 different ways of remembering.. I'd say it's Gaslighting - Your instincts are telling you something - Trust them!

garlicbutter · 10/04/2011 00:27

I liked the salmon story in the article bittersweetvictory linked to. It's scary how often you see that going on in apparently ordinary lives - gaslighting is one of those "through the looking glass" things, which nobody really believes until something forces them to take a better look. After that, it's so much easier to spot (and quite terrifying to see/hear how widespread it is.)

It's bizarre how hard I had to work to learn that what I see, hear and feel IS what I see, hear and feel! I'd been thoroughly trained to trust other people better than my own senses :( Confused Angry

Bertie, I remember the pasty story. The poor OP was so controlled, she was prepared to believe almost anything other than what her H was really doing. I recall we offered her various trap-setting, memory-jogging tactics to help her get some objectivity back. I hope she managed it.

OP, journalling is the first line of defence. You can read your previous night's journal back in the cold light of day; see what you think when you're out of the argument. As Jellykat says, though - you can trust your instincts here. I'm sorry you're having to question yourself like this.

Original poster
PaperView · 10/04/2011 09:33

I can't journal either on or offline - long story but I know I recalled these 2 particular things correctly. I even remembered getting a waft of the hamster fgs!

Right.

Ok.

OP posts:
Original poster
PaperView · 10/04/2011 09:33

I can't journal either on or offline - long story but I know I recalled these 2 particular things correctly. I even remembered getting a waft of the hamster fgs!

Right.

Ok.

OP posts:
exhausted2011 · 10/04/2011 10:07

I think if you are aware of what it is, And you think this is the start, then you stand your ground. No need to argue, just say sorry, I know what I did/said/saw.
I think there are a lot of ways to gaslight. My h swears he has told me something and will actually make up an entire story about how he told me. He's delusional. But even though I know, I have still doubted myself for a second.

Original poster
PaperView · 10/04/2011 19:43

I am worried i am over thinking this and he just lied in the first place.

OP posts:
midnightservant · 10/04/2011 20:33

I was ill with over thinking for the first two thirds of last year. Suddenly I realised

he is never going to agree with me

and my head went so silent and calm and clear...

Anniegetyourgun · 10/04/2011 21:12

An example from my joyous past... XH used to fetch me from the station and I'd call if I was going to be late, but he had usually gone already, since he started off ridiculously early and he didn't "do" mobiles. Three or four times when my train had been cancelled he said how odd, because he'd been waiting for my usual train and a train had indeed arrived at that time and the same people got off who were usually on my train, only excluding me of course. I tried to work out how this was possible, concluding at the time that the train he saw must have been either a delayed earlier one or one on a different route, and maybe he was mistaken about the people. One day I suddenly realised he had almost certainly been lying, simple as that. The objective was to make me defensive about why I was "really" late. Er, because the train service is genuinely crap, thank you very much, and when I've had a long day at work added to a long wait at the station with a bad back and sore feet I don't welcome veiled accusations that I've been having a good time!

Anniegetyourgun · 10/04/2011 21:16

Oh, and if anyone is tempted to say how kind of him to give him a lift, he insisted on it. He was the one in charge of cars. They used to break down a lot; in hindsight, the more I liked a car, the quicker it was either sold on or taken apart for some terribly logical reason and somehow never returned to working order. When we were nearly divorced I bought a car exclusively for myself that he wasn't allowed to touch and drove myself to and from the station, and it was wonderful.

Anniegetyourgun · 10/04/2011 21:17

to give me a lift, of course.

HerHissyness · 10/04/2011 21:17

Jesus, Annie. WHY do they do that? It's so pointless! To keep you in a fearful, back-foot position no doubt.

HerHissyness · 10/04/2011 21:18

He sabotaged your cars so you would depend on him? chilling.

tallwivglasses · 10/04/2011 21:18

Wow Annie, that's creepy Shock

Paper, with all this talk of waft of hamster, etc I'm intrigued.

My only advice is trust your instincts.

HerHissyness · 10/04/2011 21:22

PaperView, according to my X, I was in a mental institution for 5 YEARS! Funny, I can't remember a THING about it.

He told me he had hacked my email account and printed off all the emails I had written and deleted. I actually believed him. He used them to berate me about unsuitable relationships I had. Friends. I had to bin all of these friends, they'd done nothing wrong at all. Sad I'll never be able to apologise to them.

tallwivglasses · 10/04/2011 21:32

HerHissy, derailing a moment to say I've read a fair few recent posts of yours that have shown wisdom and strength. Less kicking, more patting yourself on the back please Smile

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