'I don't know if I love you' means 'I don't love you', doesn't it?

[hurtandangry]

dh says he doesn't know if he loves me anymore.

We started relate counselling a few weeks ago, on his instigation because he's not happy. It's only just dawned on me that this isn't an attempt to make the relationship work, it's part of his exit plan :( . Although I don't think he'd realised this himself tbh.

I don't know what to do.

Our relationship has been rocky since dd1 arrived 6 years ago. I think we had got quite dysfunctional (sniping and resentful on both sides), and was glad to get into counselling to address that, but I had no intention of ending the relationship.

Oh god, I don't know why I'm posting. I just feel totally heartbroken. I so want my beautiful dcs to have a happy family, and I can't see a way to make that happen.

I've told him this afternoon that I can't wait around for him to make up his mind about what he wants. But I think we should continue with relate as we need to establish some kind of healthy relationship in order to raise dcs together. But should we give it a few weeks before making a decision? to see if we can mend things? to see if he does still love me after all?

Dd1 found us both crying this afternoon and looks so sad and scared. Shit shit shit. I don't want to hurt the dcs, but I can't see a way of avoiding it.

I just feel so sad and angry and let down. I've tried so hard to give him a happy home and allow him to achieve his ambitions. I should have looked after myself more and him less.

:(

I'm going to post this even though is rambling nonsense. Sorry :(

It's not rambling nonsense at all.
I don't want to give false hope but "I don't know if I love you" means exactly what it says. Sometimes you get so wrapped up in your own issues that you can't see the woods for the trees - sometimes it really isn't obvious, and a bit of time and space helps.

But if you're right, and Relate is an exit strategy for him then remember that your DCs can still have a happy family. It will just be a different sort of family. They'll still have two parents who love them, and that's more important than whether the parents are together. They'll adapt, and they'll be fine. Keep at Relate, because it will help clarify what you both want.

What hassled said.

It is sad and it does make you angry, yes :( People don't leave marriages lightly, it feels like failure. Please try and remember it's a far greater failure to bury your head in the marital sand, damaging at least three lives in consequence.

Going only by your post, I'd suggest you reframe your relate sessions as preparation for your individual futures and take care of DD's security. If the pair of you can agree to this beforehand, then tell your counsellor where you're now coming from, it can work extremely well to reduce inevitable pain and help you back on your feet.

Relate runs divorce workshops, which can provide valuable support during and after divorce.

thanks so much for your replies. dcs are demanding a trip to the park, and I think we'd all benefit from some fresh air. But I'll be back later.

Thanks again

imo, "I don't know if I love you" means "I do not feel any love for you right now./ At this point in time I am not experiencing feelings of love for you"

You know when you DO love someone. You can feel it. If you can't feel it but you know you used to feel it and you know you don't feel clearly that you DON'T love them, then you can be confused about it.

I actually would give relate a bit of a try.

Clearly your DH does have some feelings for you, perhaps they can be reawoken if he can get to the bottom of what's changed? None of us can really know what is in his heart and it sounds like you are giving him some space to figure htings out, which is important.

Sorry you are going through this, it must be so hard.

I think your DH may not actually know. It's very hard when you have small children as they demand so much of your attention and it's easy to become just "mum" and not wife. I would try to continue with the Relate counselling because it will help both of you, whatever happens. And for what it's worth, I don't think many men would go to Relate to try to get out of a relationship - I think he must really want to try. Good luck with everything x

Sorry, I should have said "mum and dad and not husband and wife" - sounded like I was saying it was your fault, which it clearly isn't x

If he's willing to continue going to relate, it's a good idea to keep going, because it will either help the two of you reconnect or it will help you make your separation amicalbe and fair.
Sometimes couple-relationships just run their course, and it's a lot better to part with goodwill and kindness than carry on clinging to a dead pair-bond till you hate each other.

Umm, no I don't think it means "I don't love you". I quite frequently question (to myself) whether or not I love DH - I'm pretty sure I do but sometimes it doesn't feel like it. I am not very happy a lot of the time - still getting used to being in another country (his fault, effectively), still getting used to being so far from home, friends, family; still adjusting to him having become far more "Australian" than he was in the UK (more chauvinistic, male, mummy-focused etc.)

I think also if you are in the throes of a depression, even fairly mild, then it depresses most positive feelings, including those of love. Stress can bring on mild depression - is your DH stressed? Or depressed for any other reason? Has he seen the GP about it?

But in all fairness, you cannot equate the things you have in your thread title, so don't despair just yet. Keep going to Relate, try and work through your resentments - resentment is the worst thing in any relationship, it suffocates so much else!

HTH.

Sorry to disappear.

Thanks for your replies. I think you're right that he's not sure what he feels. Although he admited that he had emotionally detached from the relationship.

We've had an intense weekend.

One of the things our counsellor had pointed out was that dh has a lot of anger. He said that he thought he was hardly ever angry. I was because actually he is angry very much of the time. This was one of the problems - he'd get angry with me or the dcs over nothing, and I'd get upset and we'd row and snipe. I suggested, without giving it much thought tbh, that this was to do with his family - his dad was pretty shit and left under horrible circumstances when dh was 15. DH was sceptical when we were with the counsellor.

But then we talked about it some more on saturday after I posted here, and it turns out that I actually knew very little of how awful poor dh's childhood was :(

I said I'd read about 'Toxic Parents' on here and that the book is often recommended. He read it over the weekend. It's like the scales have fallen from his eyes. His dad was violent and verbally abusive. His mum was emotionally neglectful and hasn't forgiven him for siding agaist his dad when he left and still tries to get him to spy on his dad on her behalf. He hadn't talked or thought about this for years.

The reasons for his anger and self destructive behaviour over the years are coming into focus.

For my part, I was reading lots of posts on here, and realised that I have some codependant traits (illustrated in my OP by 'I should have looked after myself more and him less') - I have protected dh from the consequences of his actions and expected him to reward me with love and gratitude. which is, of course, not how it works.

I feel like we've started a long journey here. I'm not sure we'll end up together :( but I hope that we both end up OK. And I'm sure this will benefit the dcs in the end.

I'm sure having read so many threads on here has helped me move forwards much quicker than I otherwise would have. Thank you so much everybody.

x

Wow hurtandangry - that's amazing progress in a weekend! Your poor DH - but good for him to read the book so quickly and understand its relevance, and even better for opening up to you about it all.

If you can maintain that level of communication and openness, then you might be able to reconnect when your DH has done more work on his own issues - especially recognising his own emotions. Not realising you are angry is quite a major problem in its own right.

I hope that your relationship does recover and that your DH gets the help he needs, and that you manage to take care of yourself in this situation as well. :)

I kind of can't believe it's taken us so long to get to this point. I think we must have done a lot of the preparatory thinking/talking before and then reached a tipping point this weekend.

For me the trigger was realising that what I was feeling wasn't so much sadness at the idea of losing him, but indignation that he could leave me when I do/have done so much for him. And then I realised that that's exactly how I felt when my last relationship ended. God, I sound like a pain in the arse. What a ridiculous way to think. So I read a bit about codependancy and it kind of fitted into place.

Dh is having a really tough time. He's realising that he might not be a useless failure and that, instead, it his parents' mistreatment of him has made him feel that way. It's a difficult shift in perspective, I think. :(

It's all made harder by the fact he works away during the week, so we've just been speaking on the phone. He's taking thursday/friday off so he has some time to think.

Apologies for the the length, incoherence and rantiness of this. I need to vent and I don?t really have any other outlet.

Fucking hell. I'm so pissed off with everything. Everything just seems to be about him. If I try to talk about how I feel he either says 'we're not communicating properly, let's not talk now' (= ?I don?t want to listen to you, please shut up?) of 'ok, I can see everything's my fault [so shut up now]' I just don't get a chance to have my say.

We had a lovely family day out on Saturday (DH suggested and organised it, which is unheard of) and we all had a really nice time and got on really well.

On Sunday the black clouds had descended once again and he was miserable and angry and taking it out on me and the dcs. He said he realised that it was because even though we?d had a nice day on sat, he?s still unhappy (with me).

One minute he says he loves me and ?how can we through this away?? and the next he?s shouting and miserable and can?t wait to be rid of us. He now thinks that now he's realised he had a bad childhood, the problems this has caused will be automatically solved. I think he's kidding himself.

He went to the gp on Monday and was prescribed anti-d?s. He now says he can?t tolerate the side effects and anyway ?I feel fine now?. He seems to feel OK when he?s away from us during the week, so perhaps it is just living with us that?s causing his misery.

I want to vent about the major previous issues in our relationship:

~5 years ago, he had unprotected sex with a man and then had unprotected sex with me a few days later. He became convinced he?d contracted HIV and given it to me. We had 3 months of stress and tests etc before being given the all clear. I was bf dd1 at the time (she was 10 mo) and so there was a potential risk of having passed it to her too and I had to stop feeding abruptly for 3 months while we were testing. He did contract herpes which made him pretty ill for a couple of weeks. God it was absolutely awful.

All through this he was a mess of guilt and self loathing so I supported him emotionally and didn?t get a chance to express my feelings (if I did say anything, he threatened to commit suicide).

A few months later he had another unprotected one night stand with a man. This time he told me before we had sex, so at least there was no risk to me/dd, but again I supported him through testing etc. Very stressful and again, no opportunity to address my feelings.

He often overspends. When we got married I paid off his debts (£27k) with proceeds of the sale of my flat. We (he, mostly) have repeatedly got back into cc debt and eaten into my investments to pay the debts off. A couple of months ago (before he revealed that he was considering leaving) I agreed to a load secured against the house to pay of the most recent pile of debt (£27k again, oddly).

3 years ago I discovered that he had emptied dd1?s savings account and spent the money on himself (£500) he has never paid any of this back.

Except during the brief windows when he makes a real effort, he is not a very good father (or husband, for that matter). He hides behind his laptop or iphone rather than interact with the dcs and shouts and is generally horrible to them for no reason. I think the issues with his upbringing are really getting in the way of him being a good parent.

I?m finding the limbo and mood swings incredibly hard to deal with. I don?t know what I want. In some ways I think I?d be relieved if we did split up. At least I?d have control over my financial destiny (although I?d struggle with the mortgage, etc). I don?t know what I want.

:(

What a mess. :(

I discovered the extent of my co dependency in the last eighteen months. You H has 'fessed up to his childhood, is there a chance that you learned your co dependency from your childhood?

It seems that that must be the way forward for you, to discover yourself, and learn to love, and look after yourself. You didn't end up with this man by accident, and have lived under mammoth stress, to the detriment of yourself, and inevitably your kids.

Have you considered therapy for yourself? I think it's time you started to come first in your life, perhaps do something today to start that process?

I think you need to face facts, your DH has quite clearly been living a double life, sleeping with men and spending the family money on goodness knows what. He does not respect you or your children, he is and has from at least five years ago and probably before been thinking about himself.

You are allowing yourself to be treated this way by supporting him rather than getting angry and telling him to sling his hook. I think you need to forget Relate and get counselling for yourself to deal with the self esteem issues that led you to accept him treating you this way. He has put your life and your child's life at risk for goodness sake. He has spent money that could have been spent on your children and created debt against your house (with your blessing) that risks your and your children's security. In your own words 'he is not a very good father (or husband, for that matter). He hides behind his laptop or iphone rather than interact with the dcs and shouts and is generally horrible to them for no reason'.

Its seems like there are very few good points here to warrant saving your marriage.

I would get legal advice, secure all joint assets and bank accounts so that he cannot withdraw money without your signature. Then I would tell him to leave given that his behaviour to you and DC's borders on emotional abuse.

I hope you have some good RL friends and your family to talk to and get some support.

I have worded this post quite strongly in the hope you will wake up and stay ANGRY, it will help you so much in taking back your control and confidence that have been sapped by this relationship.

Please try to remember that YOU DESERVE BETTER and don't fall into being a doormat, your kids need one parent who puts them first.

Do you feel like he cheated on you when he had sex with these other people, or did you have a pre-existing agreement?

Bloody hell - he doesn't know if he loves you anymore???

The fucking cheek of it.

I think you need to tell him to leave and you need the best solicitor you can find!

Neither you nor your children should be living like this.

I am very sorry he had a shitty childhood - that does not excuse his behaviour -not at all.

Thanks for the replies.

Toby - he was definately cheating. I was totally shocked. I had no idea he had any sexual interest in men. He still says that he doesn't, in fact. He sees risky sexual behavoiur as part of his fucked-up-by-toxic-parents-ness, which may well be true.

I'm struggling to shift my view that he needs looking after (by me). I need looking after by me!

I am angry, ZhenXiang, and your point that my kids need a parent who puts them first has really hit home. That is so true.

I'm sure I did learn my codependancy from my childhood, although I'm not sure how/why exactly. In many ways I have pretty healthy self esteem. But clearly not in the context of relationships. I do need therapy, don't I?

I can get telephone counselling through work - would that be worth trying? Or should I see my gp? Or both?

Is there any chance of saving this relationship? Or is it not worth saving? Obviously, it's crazy that I'm asking you (hello interweb!) this question, but I can't see the wood for the trees.

I can honestly say I am stunned! I read your first posts thinking how sad this was. Then your last post makes this a horse of a different colour entirely. This man never loved you, he is a closet homosexual for gods sake. The debt could be rent boys or god knows what. Why were you ok with that? When you were caring for a newborn, he just announced he had unprotected sex with a man for the second time!

I despair. This isn't how a marriage, or a relationship is meant to work. I cannot for the life of me understand why you went to relate. He is angry with you?

Unless you knew he was 'bi-sexual' when you married him and were fine with it?

i think you have some issues that need to be addressed op - never mind him for now

how can i put this - up until your last post i thought was an amazing job you were both doing. i have used Relate and it was fantastic for us at a difficult time.

but you are being so submissive, as if he can do almost anything to you, and you will still fight for the right to be with him.
what else does he need to do to you? he sleeps with other men. then tells you.
its as if he is angry with you for putting up with this shit, he is testing and pushing to see how much shit he can throw at you before you snap. your tolerance sounds like it angers him. I think you need to get counselling on your own, and find out what it is in you that feels its ok to be treated like this, and still want to fight for such a dysfunctional relationship.

most woman, would not be fighting for him op. they would be changing the locks.

why are you putting up with this? you need counselling to work that out.

how can your DC be happy? really? like this?

he has no respect for you, you allow him to use you and you are being a door mat, and he probably hates himself for doing it but you are making it so bloody easy for him.

id say you have as much work to do as he does to dig into what is really going on here.

good luck op, i feel for you.

Hurtandangry - I am glad that you are beginning to see that he does not need looking after by you. In a healthy adult relationship there are times when you do need to look after your partner, but in your case he quite clearly does not look after you or your children at all so it is not appropriate. He is a grown man, yes he had a f*** up childhood, but he is now taking it out on you and your innocent children, who in turn will end up hurt by his behaviour if you do not set some boundaries.

Approach all avenues with regard to counselling, the GP route can take some time so work telephone counselling might help you in the short term while you are working things out. Relate might even see you on an individual basis if you ask.

You need to ask yourself why you would want to save such a relationship not whether it is worth saving.

To be blunt the relationship is not worth saving, he doesn't even want to listen to your feelings, he takes his feelings out on you and your children and still expects you to be there for him and yet tells you that he is not happy with you and isn't sure if he loves you! He wants to have his cake and eat it, which is what he has had so far to the detriment of you and your kids. He wants to swan around wallowing in self pity while flinging EA at you and the kids, while you run around after him trying to make it ok for him which in reality only he can do anyway. You need to start thinking about how you can make it ok for you and your kids not him. You will feel so much better when you stop taking responsibility for your third 'adult child' and start putting you and your kids first.

I totally agree with the idea that you get legal advice asap and then ask him to leave.

To have another one night stand after all the tests etc first time round is astounding , just mind blowing.

So sorry but if you could read your post impartially you would see how shocking it is

I know you're all right :(

This is the first time I've ever told anybody these things. I posted on here at the time to get bf advice, but I lied about how I'd be (potentially) exposed. I don't know why I feel such shame. I wasn't me that did these things.

I've sometimes tried to raise these issues, since I feel I have a lot of unresolved anger about them, but dh gets defensive and closes the conversation down. I don't really know what I want from him anyway.

It does seem extraordinary that he did it twice and I supported him through it both times. WTF was I thinking? I don't really remember now. I remember thinking (the first time) that everybody makes mistakes, and I could (in theory) imagine having a drunken one night stand that I'd regret hugely. So I was prepared to forgive that. The 2nd time I really don't know what I was thinking. I remember that I really wanted to have a 2nd dc and didn't want to start again on my own.

I think I've just been in very deep denial, tbh, about the scale of the betrayal and the impact that it had on me/us.

I've been trying to think about why I've wanted to save the marriage and tbh, none of my reasons are all that sound. I might list them to get some reassurance that they can all be overcome.

He's on his way home now (having been working away since Monday). We've got a session at relate tomorrow. I'm nervous about that and about how the weekend will go.

The practicalities of splitting up seems so complicated. I can't work out how we'd manage access.

He's said he'll make sure the girls are well provided for. How can I get agreements in place before he gets pissed off that I'm not offering him emotional support through the divorce? Oh, it all seems so difficult.

Thanks so much for all your responses. I know you think I'm an idiot, but it helps so much to have put the truth 'out there'.

Errr... you are NOT supposed to give him emotional support through divorce!

He is the one who said he has doubts.
He is the one who cheated.
He is the one put you and your newborn at risk.

So it's only fair that he is the one to go through his divorce without the 'emotional' support of his wife. I mean he is ging to have to live an independant live and that means that you are not responsible of his emtional wellbeing, nor about the choices he is making in life.

On the other side, get as much emotional support as you can get. You do need it now. You will do later on too.