The KIND of affair -

[lostinthejungle]

Here's another one for my affair-surviving friends on the board (and by surviving here I mean anyone that is still alive) - what's your take on the importance of the kind of affair, EA/PA/EA-PA?

I ask because I'm having some doubts after a first meeting with a marriage counsellor yesterday. H and I both really liked her and want to continue with her despite elevated cost. But I got to thinking last night about something she said - she asked my husband what kind of affair it was he had, romantic or purely sexual?

The answer is purely sexual (lasted about 5 weeks while I was away, finished before I returned because he was feeling crap about it). She said to me (before I explained the wider context to our relationship, for which I got a lot of sympathy) and said that well, a sexual affair is "just a scratch on the relationship". She wasn't saying that it was justified, or that I was stupid to feel terrible about it in the immediate aftermath. But I did take it a bit as "well this shouldn't be too difficult to get over". Bearing in mind also that I'm in South America where culturally quite accepted.

So I'm not only wondering about her as a counsellor, but more importantly about my reaction. It's true that the context for my husband's sex-only affair was a pretty awful one (supported him for the entire almost 11 years of our relationship, thus becoming resentful and cold with him), but if I leave aside the other factors for just one second, should my reaction to a purely sexual affair be softer than to one where there is real feeling involved?

I have thought on occasion how an EA would be easier in fact. I have slept with my husband a few times since discovery and end up feeling dirty afterwards because of where his "privates" have been. Using condoms (as we now have to) reminds me of how he used them with her. I am finding all that VERY hard to deal with. But I know so many say that an EA is much harder to deal with. Until you've been there, it's hard to know.

Anyway, appreciate your ideas here, thanks ladies!

CR, there is nothing in any of my posts that implies that my opinion is either right or the only valid view. I will therefore post what I like and as you know, I have no wish to get involved with arguments or point-scoring with you or any other poster. The OP and other posters can make their own decisions about the relative merits of our often very different viewpoints on life, or the ways we individually express them.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying however. I quite agree with you in fact that lots of men can have affairs without a strong emotional connection to the affair partner and the feelings for that person are indeed miniscule, compared to what is felt for the primary partner. However, I think this applies to people generally and not just men - and it is rarely just about the sex, but the addictive drug-like fix you have described. The sex itself is often not addictive, but the other feelings of being adored, desired, respected, valued and in some cases, the very illicitness of the enterprise itself, are.

The addiction is to these feelings therefore, not the woman and not the sex.

I agree that the addiction is to the feelings. who it is is not that important often- which is why men ( and women) often are serial adulterers as they enjoy the "fix".

OP- would you find it helpful to consider how you m ight feel if it had been an emotionally charged affair? Or does it simply not matter. Would it be easier or worse to cope with whatever kind it was?

The point surely is that for a while your DH got something from someone else outside his marriage, which fulfilled a need or two.

Does it matter what kind of affair? Only in so much as he needs to understands the driving force behind his behaviour.

I think what you are saying i s that there were many cracks in your marriage before the affair- you resented his neediness. Now you wonder if the affair tips you over the edge.

No one can answer that for you.

You could ask yourself what you get from him that makes you stay. How do you feel if you think of the next 50 years with him? What changes would you both need to make? Are you both willing to dig in and repair the damge- or do you feel he is not the man you want any more?

WWIFN - I've always thought of an emotional affair as one where the participants have strong feelings for each other. The first thing my dh said to me after I was told about his affair was, "it meant nothing, she meant nothing" and I felt a huge sense of relief that it was "only sex". However horrendous it is to think of him having sex with someone else, my gut reaction was that it would have been infinitely worse to think of him having a strong emotional attachment to another woman.

However, some posters seem to think that the man who is capable of 'just sex' should be shown the door. I have struggled with such comments but, having read your recent posts, I am now wondering if what my dh did could actually be described as an emotional affair. You know my story, and you know that my dh was hugely addicted to the feelings the ow's attention created in him. He was at a stage in his life when work was going badly, he was feeling old etc - pretty much the cliched mid-life crisis. Their relationship was conducted almost entirely by text which allowed a fantasy to develop. Am I right in thinking that you would class this as an emotional affair? Even though the emotions on my dh's part were not directed at the ow but at the whole fantasy/flattery etc?

Catwalker No, I think the narrowness of categories is sometimes unhelpful. Describing affairs as "physical, emotional or combined" fails to recognise the nuances and differing feelings and motives within each affair. Knowing your story as intimately as I do, I would describe your H's affair as a type of Feelings Addiction affair, but the addiction was absolutely to the feelings this generated in him and about him and not to the woman herself. His affair also had nothing whatsoever to do with his feelings for you, or your marriage and everything to do with him and the way he was feeling about life. His vulnerability to infidelity was predominantly individual, but with several lifestyle and social vulnerabilities present too. He has always been telling the truth I think when he said that his marriage was happy and that no relational factors were present at all - and that he was getting needs met in the affair that couldn't possibly have been met in the marriage.

On this last point, the needs met by the affair are often impossible to meet within a longstanding relationship; the need for a sexual and/or romantic adventure with someone new. So often in affairs, this is the very simple and banal reason for them - it's the newness and excitement of an illicit escapade with someone different. Now some people are perpetually attracted to bright beginnings, hence they become serial adulterers while maintaining a satisfying and apparently happy primary relationship, but fortunately for most essentially good, emotionally literate people, an affair discovery provides the wake-up call to examine their own character and personality and make changes. Those individuals often become evangelical about fidelity and feel very strongly that it is wrong and indefensible to deceive a partner.

Hence, you will see that although technically, your H's affair would be described as a combined affair, in that there was a long build up of secret contact and undoubtedly, shared intimacies, followed by sex and a long period of secret contact thereafter, comparing your H's affair with another combined affair that was characterised by genuine love and frequent physical encounters would be like comparing a pot noodle with a gourmet banquet!

Furthermore, I think the feelings your H had for the OW - humanitarian in that he didn't want to hurt her, but fairly benign in that he wished her no harm, presumably tie in with how he has always behaved towards women. If you'd heard however that he had been callous with her feelings and had made hurtful remarks to her and snapped at her that this was "just sex" when he realised that she was apparently in love with him, then I think you'd have some trouble rationalising that behaviour with the man you've known and loved for so long.

And if he'd ever told her that this was just about sex, it wouldn't have actually been the truth, not that he would have understood that at the time. The people who actually have the self-awareness during the affair, to realise that the addiction is to the feelings and the buzz the affair generates, not the sex and not the affair partner him/herself, are pretty rare in my experience......that realisation comes much later.

WWIFN -that all makes a great deal of sense to me. Recently I asked dh about what happened in the period after they had sex - what sort of things were being said via text. DH said that the ow kept accusing him of 'using her' and saying things like, 'now you've had your way with me I expect that's it'. She said she didn't think he was the sort of man who would just use her for sex (no doubt she felt it would be nobler for him to carry on a full blown affair!) When I asked the question, 'and how did you respond to her accusations that you were using her?' I knew the answer before he gave it. Of course he would deny that that was the case because that would paint him in a bad light and hurt her. But by denying it, of course, he was reinforcing in her mind the idea that she was something special!

Yes and this little vignette describes the sexual politics perfectly. In reality, it was the OW who kept suggesting sex, before and after, either because she wanted that very much and/or she thought that's what was expected of her. When your H said that he didn't want it to happen again, she reverted to her societal discourse that "men use women for sex" and couldn't countenance the notion that your H regretted it, found the sex itself dissatisfying or wanted to end the affair and re-commit to his marriage. I think you also said that she taunted him with comments like "what red-blooded male would turn down sex"? and I've often heard women come out with this absurdity. It's a complete failure to take responsibility for one's own sexual needs - and who was really treating whom as a sex object....

And yes, within this absurd morality, she would have quite happily countenanced your H continuing to deceive and hurt you, carry on the affair, even leave you and the children, as long as he wasn't treating her badly or using her "just for sex"....

WWIFN -- before your DH had his affair... before that.. did you two like eachother?

What a really odd question Talleyrand. We didn't just like eachother, we adored eachother!

talleyrand - if I was with someone I didn't like and they had an affair you wouldn't see me for dust!
Everyone on here who's trying to work through it is doing so because they love their DH/DPs!

I totally can't add to anything WWIFN has said but am posting my tuppence worth anyway. To me, what happened wasn't "just sex" in the way that's usually meant, because it went on for five weeks. I could forgive a one-nighter - and have done, though I wouldn't now (another story). Repeat action, though, implies premeditation and choice.

You seem, in your posts, to be seeking validation for your intense feelings of betrayal. This might have something to do with the fact that you, H and your counsellor are trying to reframe what happened as less deliberate than it was: as a solitary mistake, rather than the AFFAIR it was.

Either it was an affair, with emotions, or he coldly & deliberately used another woman to cheer his dick up. He can't have it both ways. I hope your thread's helping you get your head around your feelings - good luck & best wishes.

Lots of people stay married to someone they don't like (anymore)

Another fantastic barrage of opinions and experience, thank you so much to all of you again. I'm trying my very best not to make my posts too long so let's see how this one goes:

perfumedlife - I take your point about overthinking, this of course is my fear in the pit of my stomach, but I am not quite ready to face it yet. I think I'm developing a scenario in my mind where we get through the 5 counselling sessions this woman suggested initially and I see how I feel then. But first of all I have to make sure she is the counsellor for me (possibly dodgy attitude to physical affairs), and of course there's every possibility that I still won't know my arse from my elbow after the sessions anyway. In relation to what you say about your aunt, how completely horrible for her. There is no narrow comparison with my situation (I only planned to be here in S. America for son's primary education, secondary back home with or without H), but I take your point that it may be better to take the pain up front. Terrifying. Finally, on H trawling internet for way of understanding my reaction, I misspoke. We trawled from Day 1, and so I think it was just very helpful for both of us to understand that if we get through this in all likelihood it is going to take years, not months. I imagine few WSs, or even BSs realise that up front - I certainly didn't.

2010Dad - Like Hissy says, there is a lot of background to my husband's affair, and our relationship has been very unhealthy for a long time. The question that is arising in my mind after reading so much on these threads is whether it is only those relationships in which everything was pretty much fine before the affair - it was just, as WWIFN says, an issue of individual vulnerability - where there can be a reasonable expectation of recovery. If so, yet another scary thing for me to confront.

HerHissyness - is that you LMHF, changed your moniker? Straight to the point and on the mark as ever. I will go full on with the counsellor in our indiv session on Wed, despite the fact that (as you know) few professionals here expect their clients to question their positions. I think she can probably handle it tho. Don't you think she'll have to show straight away that she gets where I'm coming from, though? I need that as a basis to proceed. (ps. I did appreciate your post massively last week about your own experience in Egypt and I am sorry I didn't respond then, I will do so today because I would like to know more.)

Cabbage - you're right about me expecting a payback, except there was never anything subconscious about it. We were both, ostensibly, in full agreement that he would finish his studies and make a respectable (respectable as in motivated, personally-developing, not high dosh-generating) career for himself. Because that was always our understanding, I still feel like I am owed payback (money is an issue there now, I won't deny it, but personal development is much more important). An affair was not really what I was thinking about! I am definitely considering whether I want to stay in a marriage with these dynamics. Seems clear that pretty much all but the die-hard religious would encourage me to get out, but my mind has not yet caught up with that and it may take some more time and suffering on my part. I am still finding it hard to feel that I should just chuck it all without trying, despite my H's intense relationship with DS, and despite the fact that H has - with the obvious exception of the affair - always shown himself to be a good, considerate, highly affectionate person(-cum-walking-disaster-area). Hard to get past those things at this point in time.

WWIFN - I am sticking with it! Sorry, I feel bad about dropping out on the first one (tho I did go back), but I just didn't have the energy and I turned in on myself for a while (whilst also trying to help a suicidal friend, to be fair!). This last post of yours (11:42) has been absolutely spot-on in helping me to refine my thinking about the nature of my husband's affair. Of course it wasn't sex-only! He himself said from the beginning (despite using the phrase "only about sex") that he felt devalued, unmanly, undesired, and this woman's attention made him feel desirable again. Of course it was about the attention. It may also have been about the physical sex urge, yes, but it was more about the attention, you are right. I am going to ask him for more detail on this aspect, just how she treated him and where the sex came from (right now the story is that after she kissed him the first time, a few days passed, she texted him to come see her and he bought condoms because he knew what she wanted - ffs, sickening {angry}). I find it difficult to believe he wouldn't have wanted more than a candlelit dinner, though, to be honest.

What I do accept, though, for good or for bad, is that he didn't feel anything out of the ordinary for her as an individual, beyond obviously not disliking her. She offered herself and he accepted. I very much doubt that he was trying to convince her that real feelings existed - he told her from the beginning that he had no intention of leaving his family (I don't know WHERE he thought it would go, tho he says he didn't think of course). I don't think that's the same as treating her badly, though, would be VERY surprised if that was the case. That would involve lying and leading someone on, in my eyes. More stuff to talk about with H, anyway.

As to what I believe/feel, that bit is simple. Even though it seems to have gone down as I just said, I am devastated. I am not, ex-ante, comforted at all by the fact that it was "only physical". Rather, when I started this thread I was trying to get a sense as to whether my devastation is reasonable seen through the eyes of others. If a majority of posters tell me it's not that big a deal, something that you can get over more easily than if real emotion is involved, then I have something to think about. But that has not been the case at all, has it? (CR - to be honest I can't imagine what my reaction would be like if there was real emotion involved, my mind just isn't clear enough. I will say that I find it pretty disgusting that he chose to do this with a complete, unstable slapper, rather than someone I could perhaps, under other circumstances, respect. But knowing me, if it was EA, then I would be saying the opposite!)

talleyrand - disagree with you a bit there. I do think there is an understandable tendency to want to minimise what went on, but I'm pretty sure (I know I can't ever know for sure) that my husband's minimisation was as described above - "I needed to be desired and feel like a man" turns into "it was just sex". Doesn't necessarily mean there was "romance".

Erm, a bit long then :o

Lost

Your husband fucked this other woman in full knowledge that in doing so he would be ending his marriage. In the end, and after all the necessary analysis, your marriage was barely limping and he shot it.

He will not end things. He's not capable of ending it. You will have to do that and then he will always blame you for splitting the marriage up as he was willing to work at it.

You will be blamed for his continued unhappiness and discontentment which will no doubt be all of your fault as he no longer has the close relationship with his son anymore or he's on a downard financial spiral.

My advice, move back to the UK sooner rather than later. You do not need to live with your husband for him to sustain a good relationship with your son.

Forget marriage counselling, go for your own therapy. Figure out why you want to be in a relationship with someone so obviously unable or unwilling to meet your needs/aspirations/wants etc. I mean, has he ever actually done what you would like him to do, what you expect a partner to do. He has barely ever lived up to your quite normal general standards.

Use this as a clear end to the dying relationship. Your son will be fine if you split up. He will not be unscathed but who is. He wasn't going to escape unscathed from growing up with parents who barely like each other anyway. Draw the line, get the therapy.

Don't use your son as an excuse to stay with him. He has disappointed you many many times. He has crossed over a line which you had always firmly drawn in your mind. Are you now going to move this line even further, let a little bit more of yourself be erased by this arsehole?

fuck that - and fuck him.

Hello, garlicbutter, I like your thoughts. Like I just said, it's clear to me now that this was not an emotion-free "mistake", but I think the kind of emotion does matter (for good or for bad, still not clear on that).As WWIFN sets out - giving in to flattery and feeling desired with whoever happens to give it to you, vs. having real romantic feelings for that person individually.

So if my husband gave in to the flattery and the feeling of desirability, does that mean that she was just a warm place to rest his dick? Maybe, maybe not. But in the worst case scenario, and barring deliberate mistreatment as mentioned above, when you make the moves on a married person who then turns out to be vulnerable and depressed, what can you expect? I remember making the moves on someone vulnerable and depressed myself many years ago - albeit not a married man, and I only found out after succeeding in my moves that he was vulnerable and depressed. But I understood that his less-than-desirable handling of his relationship with me was not deliberate and was just a consequence of his state of mind. Fair enough, I seduced him, I accepted the consequences.

All very interesting, shame it this discussion hasn't come for me without massive helpings of grief.

snotalways - JESUS, ALRIGHT! :o

No, seriously, I find it hard to agree with everything you say. But what I do appreciate is that every time someone gives me a hard message like this, it helps to move the line/tip the balance a bit further/gives strength to some of the thoughts in my mind versus some of the other thoughts. I certainly don't think I'm using my son as an excuse - there is a real, genuine and highly significant concern there (kids yourself?) - but what I accept I might be getting wrong is just how much it might damage him. Shitty to have to just try it and see. A mental stumbling block is that I don't have a very strong relationship with my parents or sister, so I can't expect much support or understanding from them. Very good friends with kids, but all dotted all over the country.

Talking of the effect on kids, in the immediate aftermath I came across an intersting article about the long-term effects of divorce on kids. I think I will start a thread about it because I found it very distressing (but BELIEVABLE) and I would like to hear others' thoughts on it.

Lost- it is easy for onlookers to tell you what to do- to say he is not worth it, that he knew he was shooting your marriage in the foot etc etc- but they are not you- or him. If it was that easy you would have done it- instead of talking to strangers who can just guess what is really going on in both your heads.

I don't think anyone ends a marriage especially where there are children involved without a huge amount of thought- or they shouldn't anyway.

You are still aligning payback with "affair". I can see why, but it does not follow.

When people ask was it emotional or was it simply sex- well, it has to be both to an extent. If it were just sex, a prostitute would do. The OW boosted his ego and made the right noises in a way that a paying-for-sex encounter would not.

I don't think you should waste energy blaming her. I have been on the receiving end of married men's attentions in my (long) life- they spin all kinds of tales about their wives and the state of the marriage which may or not be accurate. For all you know, maybe he promised to leave you for her etc etc etc.

This was a very brief affair- some go on for ten ot 20 years. You can get past it- but it's whether ou want him and what he IS that matters.

Hi Lost

I'm genuinely sorry for hurting you with the bluntness. I have read all of your posts and I like you a lot and your husband a lot lot less.

I suppose I can hear myself in the way you are talking and I can see how I would be doing exactly what you are doing now, trying to fix things, and excusing his behaviour or rationalising it and doing a lot of self-blaming and it just came to me. If I were where you are now, I would want the me from before the affair to shout loudly - NO, DO NOT REDRAW THIS LINE, DO NOT LET HIM MOVE MY LINE EVEN FURTHER.

You seem to be very giving in this relationship. But you give and resent his taking. You give him this and you will resent him even further. He will never ever appreciate what forgiving this affair will mean to you. You will never get the payback for the forgiveness.

And its really hard, but without the affair your relationship was all but dead. From reading your posts, it was beyond unhealthy and you both suffered from depression within it and because of it.

Its not like your son has the option of two happily married parents or two divorced hating parents. There is an awful lot inbetween not all of it good but not all of it long term and damaging.

Blimey snot, and they call ME blunt!

Lost, it is indeed me, LMHF, royal wedding name and all that... I'm thinking of keeping it though. Titled at last!!!

WRT to the counsellor, I don't care whether they are used to getting questioned at all. Bloody Drs in Egypt walk on water apparently, people don't DARE to question them. I've no idea which particular south american country you are in (PM me if you feel you want to) but depending on which one it is, and the levels of illiteracy, if you have letters after your name, then everyone else is an idiot.

Basically, you are no slouch yourself. Sure Spanish may not be your first language, but you are bloody clever and can express yourself most eloquently to the rest of us here, so don't you dare let this Shrink make you feel inferior.

You are paying her, she is merely hired help IYSWIM, you are her client and if she doesn't get you, she is history. For the money she is taking off you, she has to be able to perform. FAST. Be as matter of fact as you need to be. AFAIK, over there directness is usual. Politeness not too common in all areas.

AFAICS, your H bonked this cheap skirt, because he CAN. You were not there, he manufactured your permission somehow, and he 'knows' you are so over invested in him and his life that you won't leave him. So where is the deterrent for him? Why shouldn't he screw the first tart that flashes her tits/ass at him? What will you do about it? After everything you gave up, knowing what your parents think of him. He's betting on ZERO, NADA.

I think the time has come to be brave. To play chicken with him at the very least. Make plans to go back home. Start scaling back, and cashing in your investment.

I know it hurt, the comment about your son being an excuse to hold you to this man, but actually you need to look at this from the other side, the side that says you MUST have a good role model for your DS. H is a crap role model, DS would do better with a happy mummy, and who knows a great Step Dad. Tell shit head H that. That is a kick straight in the balls for him, and a well deserved one.

You owe it to him, your DS to provide him with the best environment you can give him to be a success in his life, to be happy, bright, successful. A lovely hippy chick school is all well and good, but qualifications are going to be very important, he needs to be able to support himself. What if you DO decide to call it a day, and he ends up like my DS, an only son. With your H not pulling his finger out, the responsibility for caring for his parents will fall to him.

Sure it's a shitty thing to think, but it's real and it has to be considered.

Give you and your son a Summer in the UK, away from H and with a view to arranging to move back. Why? because this arse of a bloke took all he could from you, and has bitten the hand that fed him. literally. If you can get his passport to the UK removed from him, do it.

Apologies for the MASSIVE post.

Hello girls, sorry I was down and out there for a few days again. Things are very hard going and I feel like I am swimming through thick mud.

snotalways - Thanks for your kind words, and I want to make it clear that you absolutely didn't hurt me with your bluntness! Yes, tough messages are always hard to hear, but not gonna shoot you for it. Like I say, it's all part of the process of working things out in my mind. And that has been happening.

Hissy - ditto. I massively appreciate your posts - the longer the better in fact - and I would like to PM you because I would like to know more about your separation and how you and DS handled it. But a couple of clarifications.

About DS not being a good enough father because he has just arsed around for the last decade. Definitely true - so far. But what kills me about this situation with H is that FINALLY, FINALLY, he is about to step up and show whether he can be what we both expected of him - ie. someone who develops himself as a person by interacting with the real world and earns a bit of dosh to boot. This damn cafe (I don't think I can even go there now, to be honest) should be opening within the week. It is quite conceivable that we could have got to where we wanted him to be after so long. (Whether I could have regained my respect for him even so is another matter, we shall never know now.) What I'm saying is that he could potentially be a good father in all senses. Apart from not screwing around on his wife.

The other thing is that there are things in your post and the posts of others that I really don't recognise, I'm sure all OPs feel this to an extent, and it doesn't necessarily mean that we are deceiving ourselves. I know it might do, and noone can ever be sure of the full details/dynamic behind their partner's affairs, but I don't, for instance, think that H (even though he's Latin American with all that entails) screwed this woman just because he could, in a very cold and calculating way where our marriage was concerned. I do think that he did it because he was depressed and vulnerable and our marriage was shite. I don't think he thought about the consequences for a second. If that doesn't sound plausible then possibly it's because you don't know how very stupid and naive this man can be. He has just wandered through life not thinking about anything very much at all.

But ultimately that doesn't matter very much. It might allow me to feel more charitable towards him some day, but right now my sense of betrayal and grief is acute in the extreme. And the fact that he is stupid and weak is obviously a massive problem for our relationship.

The long and the short of it is that over the last few things my agony has intensified to the point that I have attacked him several times (obviously not in presence of DS). I cannot find a way to suppress my rage at what he has done to my life, and this situation cannot continue for my DS. I am not quite there yet, I warn you, but my sense of peace at returning home is growing. The thought of what I have to get through as part of that process - selling much of my stuff, packing up the rest (I have a lot of crap!), finding homes for the dogs etc etc - virtually paralyses me with despair. But increasingly I feel like I can do it. H is distraught, but he made his bed.

Counselling on Wed. Seems like it will be more about how to get through this with least possible damage to DS.

Btw, wanted to add a few tidbits. H insists that the affair was purely physical, just about sex. I pressed him on the emotional element and he told me that what he did appreciate from her was that she asked him about how the cafe was going, which he welcomed because things were so ugly (death threat ugly) with a contractor on that front. (That hurt me desperately deeply because firstly I'm not sure that I wasn't able to talk to him about it at the time (can't remember), but also because I was so depressed at what was happening with the cafe, after waiting so long, after investing so much emotionally etc etc). But he insists that was the only emotional element he got out of her, apart from feeling generically desired. The sex was like a steam valve for his distress. Whatever, I just don't know what it all means, I'm not sure it matters.

Here's the really great thing - why do you think she was asking about the cafe? "Gold" digger. I strongly suspected this myself, as when she called me she asked me if it was true what she had heard that he didn't have any money of his own, a fact that I was more than happy to confirm. And we never heard from her again. But now he tells me that she began to ask him (heavy hints) for money for this, that and the other. You can find women like that at home, obiously, but Hissy will agree with me I'm sure that it's particularly common in Latin America. And this wanker felt like a big man because she wanted to screw him?! HA! Truly pathetic.

Anyway. All too ugly, too seedy. How did something so vile come into my life and that of DS?

Yep, you got me lost, I know more about him now than I did, and I am projecting my own evil bastard onto your DH.

You know him better, and I don't doubt your perception of it all.

tbh, the questions from the mamacita wrt the plata and the fact that she wanted to know if he had any of his own, and buggered off when she found out that No, he really didn't, does tie in with his side of the story. If it was for el amor, she'd have hung onto her man...

She thought he had cash, betting she's done it with other clients, to supplement her income as it were. You know that goes on, I know that goes on. My X's business partner is totally broke now, due to a Honey trap, £140k he gave her to invest in some sheep thing. But he burnt a heck of a lot of cash on the 3 girlfriends he had prior to this, 1 in her 20s, another in her 30s and another in her 40s. He used to boast that he had them all in one day, before his wife's bags had hit the floor of her mother's hallway. the one that took the money told him she was a virgin too! Went out there with over £500k, has less than £5k now. Men really CAN be that stupid.

Mind you, your H is nothing like this guy, he doesn't seem contemptuous of you like this one was

Remains to be seen if you think that a bloody great big rocket up his arse and being read the riot act so nothing of this ever happens again, will be enough to counter the feelings of his monumental naivety and stupidity on this occasion.

Take a break if you can, do some thinking, weigh it all up and lay it on the line with your H.

OP - my soon to be XH has had two EA's, the last one as an exit strategy from our marriage, although the lies and deception he used for the last 4 years of our relationship make me think that they were (are) PA's too.

IMO whether your H had an emotional connection to the OW or not, at the time he was being led by his dick, he certainly wasn't connected to you. The 'fog' he tells you about is really a strategy to fog your thinking and make you doubt yourself and your instincts about his appalling behaviour and lack of respect for your relationship. Whether the affair was 'led' by OW or not, he must have been giving signals out about being up for it.

We went through relationship therapy too, which my XH used to lie all through while he tried to plan his way out of our marriage. The therapist also did not challenge him enough about the EA - which he denies to this day was anything more than 'intimate friendship'. But, strangely, my pain and distress were not alleviated by his minimsing.

Beware of any therapist who imposes meaning on a situation like this, at the very least you must take it back to therapy and have it talked about in that context.

Before you can move on from this, together or alone, he needs to work on getting to the bottom of his own problem with keeping it in his trousers. If he can't/won't then you'll struggle to find peace because he may do it again. He could start his own therapy alongside what you do in couple work. Are you both absolutely clear about the purpose of this work together, btw?