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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

The KIND of affair -

73 replies

lostinthejungle · 31/03/2011 19:15

Here's another one for my affair-surviving friends on the board (and by surviving here I mean anyone that is still alive) - what's your take on the importance of the kind of affair, EA/PA/EA-PA?

I ask because I'm having some doubts after a first meeting with a marriage counsellor yesterday. H and I both really liked her and want to continue with her despite elevated cost. But I got to thinking last night about something she said - she asked my husband what kind of affair it was he had, romantic or purely sexual?

The answer is purely sexual (lasted about 5 weeks while I was away, finished before I returned because he was feeling crap about it). She said to me (before I explained the wider context to our relationship, for which I got a lot of sympathy) and said that well, a sexual affair is "just a scratch on the relationship". She wasn't saying that it was justified, or that I was stupid to feel terrible about it in the immediate aftermath. But I did take it a bit as "well this shouldn't be too difficult to get over". Bearing in mind also that I'm in South America where culturally quite accepted.

So I'm not only wondering about her as a counsellor, but more importantly about my reaction. It's true that the context for my husband's sex-only affair was a pretty awful one (supported him for the entire almost 11 years of our relationship, thus becoming resentful and cold with him), but if I leave aside the other factors for just one second, should my reaction to a purely sexual affair be softer than to one where there is real feeling involved?

I have thought on occasion how an EA would be easier in fact. I have slept with my husband a few times since discovery and end up feeling dirty afterwards because of where his "privates" have been. Using condoms (as we now have to) reminds me of how he used them with her. I am finding all that VERY hard to deal with. But I know so many say that an EA is much harder to deal with. Until you've been there, it's hard to know.

Anyway, appreciate your ideas here, thanks ladies!

OP posts:
lostinthejungle · 31/03/2011 22:12

God, it's BRILLIANT to be able to type this over with you. I'm going mad here.

Cloudybay - no PA, but the EA still shook you absolutely to the core, made you question your whole life with this man and who he actually is? Sorry, absolutely not being facetious, just want to understand. And am I right in thinking that you're one of the survivors? Was the fact the there was no PA meaningful for you in any way?

Leela2 - well we shall never know, but 1 of 2 options: 1) He had broken it off and she just wanted to hurt him to the core (me being a mere instrument, thank you) because she barraged me with what seems to have been a load of very hurtful lies, some of which I have proof were lies, or 2) she hoped that I would kick him out and he would go running to her, though that was probably knocked on the head a bit in the course of my conversation with her when it was revealed that he hadn't earned a penny for a over a decade. Bear in mind that this is South America and the emotional code of conduct is a little different to the UK (though of course there are psychos everywhere)!

cabbageroses - I know you and WWIFN have your differences, and WWIFN's posts have been an unbelievable resource for me over the last month, but I have to say I do agree with what you say about the male/female divide - based on my narrow experience of life and the human relationships I have seen around me. (A lot of which have been Latin American, hmmmmm). Of course there is a very substantial minority in each gender that sees life differently, but I still don't see that it's more than a (substantial) minority. Nature or nurture? Probably a good mix of the two. Even so, I challenge your friend to go through what I have gone through and not change her opinion. I have to confess - and this is extremely embarassing to admit for the first time, not least as my husband will probably read it - that I had wondered VERY, ENORMOUSLY, EXTREMELY IDLY if sending him elsewhere for sex (constant badgering) might not be a solution. Boy was I put straight on that one.

cabbageroses - also, I'm very interested in what you say about putting the whole issue of supporting him to one side, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I most certainly was resenting all the support I was having to give him for so long, well before the affair ever happened - in fact, my resentment is the reason it happened. But don't you think there's something particularly sick about someone failing to do anything meaningful with their lives for so long (apart from being a brilliant dad, can't not mention that) and then adding in sexual betrayal to boot? I find it hard to separate out the two things because when something like this happens everything goes on the weighing scales in the decision to leave or to stay....

Ta ladies, very much.

OP posts:
lostinthejungle · 31/03/2011 22:18

oops, caught in the middle!

Peter, his inability to communicate properly about his feelings (low confidence/self-esteem not insensitive bastard) definitely responsible in large part for parlous state of our relationship immediately before affair. Not used as an excuse. No excuses attempted.

FWIW, I'm not a jot sorry for his pain either and in fact I would quite like to maximise it though I'm sure that's a highly unproductive way of looking at it.

OP posts:
PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:20

it's ok lost, you are not caught in the middle

it isn't a polarised issue

cloudybay24 · 31/03/2011 22:24

Hi Lost

YES the EA has still come close to destroying everything - and still maybe could but I hope not, we seem to be getting there. The moment of discovery was the worst moment of my life. I have never felt such grief, anger and panic in my whole life.

Had he slept with ANY anonymous OW would it have been worse? Who knows? If he had slept with this particular OW after conducting an EA?? - then definitely YES as the sex would have meant something - it would have had context and wouldn't have been anonymous or just conducted in a vacuum which had nothing to do with real life.

We are surviving fairly well but I have had a lot of help on here and I am keeping an open mind. I can have really good days then it comes and bites me on the bum.

Pseudocreme · 31/03/2011 22:27

I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation and I'll leave the advice to the other women on here as I have none.

But as a general point, I think any comparison that attempts to paint a PA as less damaging than an EA is perhaps based on the fact that one can be ended by mere choice iyswim. As soon as the affair ends, the substance of it does. But with emotions, you can't choose to switch them off.

Anyway, it's irrelevant because it's the betrayal that continues to bite, regardless of the nature of the affair.

2010Dad · 31/03/2011 22:30

Quote:

"I wasn't posting for your benefit, CR

You have no need to address my posts personally

Why do you feel the need ?"

It's called a public forum. mumsnet has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of subscribers; what do you expect?

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:33

2010Dad, I would give your post more credence if you had already posted in support of the OP on her thread

since you haven't done that, I will take your input as a cheap opportunity to have a go

well done

2010Dad · 31/03/2011 22:38

Perhaps I haven't got quite as much time on my hands as you have.

cloudybay24 · 31/03/2011 22:42

Come on, just stop it, this isn't doing anyone any good, specially the OP.
PAFPM please keep posting, what you say makes a lot of sense and I look forward to what you say.
2010Dad - if you have an opinion about what the OP has raised then join in but no need to make it personal.

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:42

and your problem with me is ?

how odd is your reaction ?

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:44

last post to 2010dad of course

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:45

perhaps 2010dad you should srat your own thread, detailing your problem wih me

and take it the fuck away from this thread

see how that one goes

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:46

start

lostinthejungle · 31/03/2011 22:46

Pete, I was going to lump you in with my counsellor there for a minute, talking about my odd reactions...

OP posts:
cloudybay24 · 31/03/2011 22:48

Of course PAFPM !
wtf is going on, thought we were meant to be trying to help lostinthejungle!
lost r u still here?

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:48

lost, now that would be daft Smile

PeterAndreForPM · 31/03/2011 22:51

...since you are the one making the most sense on your own thread

perfumedlife · 31/03/2011 23:01

OP I read your other thread and i'm so sorry you are going through this.

I have an aunt and uncle who emigrated six months after his affair with a neighbour came to light. My cousins were 8 and 10. My aunt swallowed a bottle of bleach the night she discovered the affair. Luckily my mum found her and she was ok. Anyway, fast forward thirty years. They came home for a visit. Aunt tells my mum she has ruined her life, and also her childrens. Why? Well, the cousins are so settled in the new country, married, kids, they never want to return to the uk. Understandable. Aunts marriage has limped on, happyish, but never the same. As she ages, she realises she misses her family too much, doesn't want to die abroad. Trapped though, can't come back and miss her kids and grandchildren.

All done to escape the pain of his affair. She ran away from the scene of the crime, and took the murdered with her.Sad

You are over thinking this. He is not what you want in a partner, your resentment is palpible. And as if that was not bad enough, he cheats. Some things cannot be talked to resolution. This man is showing you who he is, he has always shown you and you have made bargains with yourself. If I support him through this study period, he might then be who I want/ need him to be...

I am struck by him looking at this forum for reasons for your reaction. What problem does he have understanding your reaction? Is he blind?

2010Dad · 31/03/2011 23:23

OK

I don't have a lot to offer, I'm afraid. Having being in a faithful relationship for around 18 years, since I was 15.

But I understand the temptation. It's true; blokes are able to 'compartmentalise' and I have friends that have slept with girls while in a relationship, but to be honest, one of the reasons I haven't (other than obvious marital commitment) is because I can't imagine enjoying feelings for another woman and being able to continue a loving relationship with my DW at the same time. I have been tempted though, but really pleased I haven't done anything about it, especially after having read some of the threads on this relationship forum. I really love my wife, but it's amazing how a man's brain can adapt in some situations (maybe women are the same?)

OP hasn't said much about her relationship with her husband. In any relationship, honesty is the most important quality you can have (IMO). Also, I think one of the things that is so important in any relationship is a shared closeness (even if it's not all the time, with kids), shared sense of humour, and shared interests, such as holidays, or a surprise weekend away.

I've deliberately not mentioned sex, as I think you need most of the above before you think about getting things going, in order to have a great sex life. No doubt it will all follow on naturally.

The only thing I can say which might be some help, is that the "just a scratch on the relationship" comment really is as simple as it seems to most men. What your DH did is unforgivable, and only you can decide if you can forgive him and move forward.

My DW and I had a bust-up after 15 years together (nothing to do with infidelity), and even though we felt like it could be the end, we are still together 3 years later and have never felt so in love. It's amazing how you can turn things around.

We now have a very demanding 12 month old and the tiny amount of time we have together is more valuable than ever.

Probably not much help!

HerHissyness · 01/04/2011 00:32

Lost, I think it's only right that you discuss this with the counsellor, and express to her that it may be a 'scratch' in her culture, but it is a great big gaping GASH in yours, and that if she can't understand the size of the hill you personally have to climb, then this is going to be problematic.

For one, you will feel that the pair of them are on the same page, which is unacceptable. This affair is unacceptable to you, tell her about how dirty you feel when you have been with him since and ask him if that's only a scratch.

That is a serious issue that needs sorting out pronto, or it'll eat away at you. She needs to understand that. HE needs to understand this too.

Your feelings HAVE to be fully taken on board, by both the H and the counsellor.

Give her a set period of time, to demonstrate that she 'gets' it, otherwise, you will need to go elsewhere.

2010Dad, with respect, nice to have some insight. However, what are you actually saying, that he had a point, and it's up to her if she can accept it or not? Is that it? hardly breaking new ground there Sherlock! Grin

You ought to have searched on lost's name for the full back story. There is more history there than you could shake a stick at. Pete knows the back story.

cabbageroses · 01/04/2011 08:43

OP- just to asnwer your points.
The reason I said it might help to separate the feelings of supporting your DH and the affair are these:

subconscicously, you may have felt you were owed some kind of payback from DH for all the support you gave him.
(It's already been mentioned in your earlier thread that yours was pretty much a parent-child relationship).

The first rule of parenting is- give your love, but expect nothing back- it's given freely. We can't make our children love us but hope they will.

Like a spoiled , over indulged child he has wandered off to have his bit of fun, regardless of the impact on you- he was driven, as men can be, and did not stop to consider the fall out.- and in response you are screaming ( understandably) "But I gave you everything!"

Maybe the affair has made you re-assess the balance in your marriage- but whether- with hindsight- you think that he "deserves" you to leave him because he didn't appear grateful enough- and even kicked you in the teeth for all your support- is something else.

You gave that support- I assume- willingly at the time, with no strings attached.

It is also possible- maybe your counsellor can help here- that if it was such a parent-child set p, he was anaethetised in some way from the impact of his behaviour. Maybe he thought you would forgive- like uncondiditonal parental love does.

More likely he didn't think at all- he just ploughed on fuelled by testosterone.

Although the affair in itself may not be the end of your marriage- and he wants it to work it seems- I think you need to- as you will know- think over whether you want to be in a marriage with these dynamics. He seems emotionally needy and you seem to have always jumped to those needs.

In some ways i can see what your counsellor means as teh affair is a symptom.
What is going on underneath is what matters. it's that you need to deal wit to find the solution.

But ultimately you question must be- do Il ove this man enough to give him and us a 2nd chance- and am I able to forigive?

cabbageroses · 01/04/2011 08:46

PAFPM- wow- what a spat once I'd gone to bed!
Really, you have no right to ask a poster not to comment on what you have said. This is a public forum. Everything here is goog-able and here for ever. Put your head above the parapet- and you know the rest.

You dish it out brutally most of the time- so be able to take it if someone points out you got the wrong end of the stick.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 01/04/2011 11:42

Lost I really hope you will feel able to stick with this new thread, because although as I said on your last, it's understandable if you don't want a certain level of challenge at the moment, you are asking posters to invest quite a bit of time and emotional labour reading and replying to your posts, on this and other threads.

You know my views on men and women and the sexual politics, so I'm not going to re-hash them here, but suffice to say that although I think men and women are socialised differently and especially so in some national cultures or faiths, I refute the idea that men and women have different sex drives or that women should be expected to behave better than men. In fact within the current societal culture in the UK, there is plenty of evidence of married and single women wanting no-strings attached relationships, pursuing affairs with attached men, behaving pretty badly towards others and refusing to take responsibility for their actions and conversely, evidence of men having emotional but not sexual affairs (and it is the men putting the brakes on), developing infatuations and leaving their partners for a crush, or genuinely falling in love with someone other than their sanctioned partner.

Compartmentalising men and women into narrowly-defined boxes is unhelpful, in my view, because people are individuals and will often not behave according to the social constructs placed on them.

The nub of the issue on this thread seems to be whether in your H's case it really was a "sex-only affair" and a secondary issue is your counsellor's extraordinary pronouncement about this representing a "scratch" on your relationship.

From everything you have said on this and other threads, I don't think your H's affair was a sex-only relationship. I think that might be a comforter your H and you are bargaining on, in order to get past this, along with some dubious views about the core differences between men and women.

I am not saying that your H had deep and genuine feelings for this woman, but I suspect he was getting far more from this relationship than just the sex or the promise of it. To me, his affair sounds like the classic "feelings addiction" affair, where the lure of it was not just the sex, but being made to feel adored, respected, desired and valued by the OW. His addiction for a brief time was to the feelings she generated in him but not about her and in fact, the sex was merely a necessary by-product of all that, to keep those feelings coming.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if your H told you that he might have happily conducted this affair without sex at all and it was the OW who was more insistent for sex to happen. Unfortunately, many women snort at this idea because they believe that men are primarily motivated by sex itself. Indeed, the OW may have fallen into this trap herself and might have teased him or sneered at him, if he'd said no to sex that was freely on offer. For some women, it is utterly inconceivable that a man will turn down the offer of "free sex" and because she defines her esteem by her desirability to men, she reacts very badly to sexual rejection.

So I think you'd be better off examining what else your H was getting out of this relationship other than the sex. I suspect the feelings the entire illicit enterprise generated in your H were higher up the motivational scale than lust and sex.

I'd say your counsellor is repeating the same discourse that I have documented here - that women find it easier to forgive sex, but harder to forgive emotions. I suspect if she had a couple in her room where the woman had enjoyed an emotional affair only, she would be describing that as a "scratch" to her husband...Hmm

It's what you believe that counts. For me, I wouldn't have even accepted that my H could have had a sex-only affair, because it would have been a total aberration to his character, the sexual politics he had espoused all his life and his general regard for and treatment of women.

I confess I find it a little odd that women are comforted by the idea that their Hs are attracted to casual relationships and are in some cases, using a woman for sex only, especially if he has been convincing an OW that real feelings existed. To my mind, it is never okay to treat an OW badly and it's a false bargain to approve of that.

I acknowledge it might be different if an OW had been similarly emotionally under-invested and both knew the score, but if that persona really doesn't fit with the values you thought your H had about sex, there's a disonnance that needs to be resolved between who you thought he was and the person he is in actuality.

talleyrand · 01/04/2011 12:34

you won't like me saying this, but personally I don't believe there is such a thing a sex-only affair.

It's an invention

  • if men are caught having sex they will attempt to minimise the offence by saying 'it was only sex, not romantic'
  • if, however, the man was caught exchanging intimacies they will attempt to minimise the offence by saying 'it was only emails/talking - we didn't have sex'

barring the drunken one-night-stand, sex and emotional attachment go hand in hand...

cabbageroses · 01/04/2011 12:40

WWIFN- despite your saying that you are not going to re-hash your views on social conditioning and sexual behaviour, you still wrote a good 2 paragraphs on it.

You and I inhabit different places where this goes. I don't think it helps the OP to have this going on. She already pointed out that she tended to agree with what I said on it, and although I am not scoring cheap points here, i think you should accept that your opinion is not necessarily either right or the only valid one.

OP- I have known and spoken to platonic male friends who have described their affairs- and I have girl friends who have heard the same thing. These men say quite categorically that they were able to have emotion-free sex. Of course they liked the women, yes, they were emotionally needy and got something from the affair, but what they felt for the OW was miniscule compared to what they wanted from their wives. They have used the same words your DH did- like a drug, like being on heroin, taking crazy risks just to get another "fix". I have been told this in real life by men who love their wives but whose wives at the time were making themselves (often) emotionally and physically unavailable.

it's well documented that when a relationship breaks down, either through separation or emotional distance, men seek out other women - whereas women take their time, cry to their friends, eat chocolate and shop!

In fact, some of my friends are adamant that they would never have an affair, irrespective of their own relationship status, but simply because they know the "place" the OW has in the minds of many married men.

Your DH has demonstrated he is needy by the demands he has made on you over your marriage.It's quite easy to see then that if you were getting fed up with those demands he took solace in the OW who didn't know him so well and was flattered by his attention- as he was hers.

You need to look at what future you might have nad if he is willing to change. part of the counselling should be what made hi have the affair- he neds to answer that. If you just don;t like him any more due to his neediness then that is something different.