Can it be ok to just say enough is enough?

[NorthernerAtHeart]

I've posted a bit on the Diary of a Separation thread, and also a while back here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1150861-Time-without-kids-relationship-going-wrong-worried

Relationship not good - no violence or abuse, just lots of arguing, ignoring etc. Together for 8 years, 3 kids.

We had a rubbish weekend 10 days ago. DH home early and feeding the kids, I got home at 5 to come and help and he really resented it (normally get home between 5 and 5.30). Ignored me most of the evening, swept the issue under the carpet, but the stirring the next day, ignoring during the evening, sunday I was pretty fed up and by the evening again silence and ignoring, so I asked him why he wanted to be with me. Silence in response, followed by 'that's a difficult question.' Great. More discussions, arguing, he told me I shouldn't have come on on the fri at which point I said I'd had enough and couldn't do this any more. Spent all day monday figuring out practicalities.

Since then he has turned himself into super husband - lots of cuddles, kisses and telling me how devoted he is and has always been to me, how much he loves me etcetc.

The trouble is that is just feel incredibly low and empty. Before, if he'd have done that I'd have got upset and said I love him too etc etc. I feel like he has suddenly stepped up a gear but that it is all too late. I have built up so many defences and feel very detached. I don't cry when he is about if I can avoid it, as it just gets ignored. He started complaining last night that he was getting nothing back for his efforts to fix things, and was going on and on about both of us turning over a new leaf. He also asked me if i just wanted him to disappear - i didn't reply, but it's pretty much at that point.

We have booked councelling but I'm not sure how that can work when I feel so completely detached anyway.

I'm not sure what reponses I'm hoping for, but any comments would be appreciated.

Can I just say I don't want to continue? It seems wrong without their being a major event to be the reason. What if it's the wrong thing to do?

I need a fairy godmother to tell me what to do and hold my hand!!!

Thanks for reading if you made it this far!!

There really worries me:

Also deciding not to tell me a couple of important (in my mind) things and undermining my reaction - a bike being stolen, and large amount of earnings being put by him in his savings account rather than joint savings. No effort to understand my point of view - just a blanket 'no i can't see where you're coming from', or 'but you did x/y/z without telling me', or 'well i never asked you to put money in the joint account' or 'i earn most of the money in the house'.

Does he do this a lot - put large amounts of money into his own account? Does he assume that because he earns the most money it can go into his account? He undermines your reaction - because what you think or feel isn't important to him. You need to understand that.

It seems that he's talking about 'saving the marriage' but his actions are saying something very different. Sorry to say this, but I think you need to keep your eyes open sweetheart and track every penny

worth

Your family life is already broken by his actions.

Putting up and shutting up will keep you in that hole he's dug for you. And now you are growing flowers in it, dig your way out instead!!. He has truly done a bang up job on you to get you so conditioned to feeling as you do. Your words are all those of someone emotionally battered and worn out by the ongoing actions of her abusive husband.

You give him far more consideration than he deserves, he has never shown you such courtesy and would not do so either. He acts like this also because he can. He enjoys hurting you!.

Your children are being emotionally harmed by their Dad and both of you are imparting damaging lessons to them with regards to relationships. Is this really the life you and they deserve now?.

He is neither a good father to them either if he is more than prepared to treat his wife (the person he professes to love) like this.

Honestly, this is no legacy to leave these young people. Would you want them to have the same sort of relationship as you now have with your H?. How would you feel if your DD (if you have a DD) went onto marry someone like her Dad or your DS (if you have a DS) treated his wife like your H treats you?. What you are teaching them is that this is (currently) acceptable to you. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents, think carefully about what you are teaching these young people now. You must not put him before them, this is an accusation they could well throw at you when they are adults and leave home. They could well come to despise you for staying with such a man and wonder why you never left. They will not thank you for staying with such a man, they will wonder why you stayed and if you say "because of you" they could well call you an idiot if not worse.

Womens Aid can help you but you need to be brave and make that call. Only you can do this, staying with such a man is truly no great option for you or for your children.

Oh my goodness. I'm still here and feeling absolutely awful. I so need a kick up the backside - hence rereading my old post. We've been going to councelling throughout and I don't feel it has got us anywhere, other than being a place where we can discuss something without me being told I am wrong about it all the time, or feel like I am talking to a brick wall.
Sometimes we're muddling along ok, sometimes we clask enormously.
Went away on holiday, mostly fine.
Went away camping, massive clash because he wouldn't listen to my fears about cooking in tents. (Well not a massive clash at that particular time as friends were with us so I couldn't say any more - he just ignored my pleas and asked if I was going to just let him get on with it, or what). Fears were not irrational - backed up by a relevent science phD - but still told I was wrong until he happened to do exactly what I said would happen (thankfully not in the tent), when he conceded that I may have had a point.
He told me a few months back that he'd been contemplating ending the relationship around the time we found out we were unexpectedly expecting DS1. I find it very hard to get this, and his utterly useless behaviour for a long time after, out of my head.
I feel I am on a very short fuse and rarely feel relaxed at the moment.
How on earth do people fix things and forget the past? I just don't feel happy at all - tears in my eyes after the school run, hard not to cry and cry and cry.
I am still frozen by the thought of changing the kid's lives. What if I have got it all wrong and it is me? He comes from another country and that adds another dimension to the problems.
I gave myself 12 months to sort things out - only 2 and a half left. I'm not sure I have the guts to do anything anymore.
Don't feel obliged to reply. I just need somewhere to vent and waffle a bit.

Hi NorthernerAtHeart.

I've just come accross your thread and wanted to say that I am exactely in the same situation. H has been a pain to live with for years and when I was finally plucking up the courage to leave, he started to try and be 'the best Husband ever' - well it means he actually has done something caring for me... And again I can't managed to make the final jump. Arrrg....

Having said that, I've had one these totally paralysing fear. Mine was about money and finances. Will I ever be able to cope when I am earning near to £0 (thanks to me becoming a SAHM after dc2, having being made redundant at the time)??
What helped was to try and face the problem head on. So I went to CAB to see what I could get. Did a budget, looked at what we are spending money on, whsat can be cut, what will go down by being 3 instead of 4. in the mean I stopped putting pressure on myself and made myself enjoy the time I have (with the dcs, on my own and being as calm as possible with H)
Didn't work the first time but did the second. I am confident that I can 'do it' financially now.

The things that come accross in your last post are :

• The pressure you put yourself under (I will have that sorted out in 2 months time)
• The fear your dcs will have a very hard time. Is it a rational fear or irrational? Is your H going to be difficult about it?
• The fact that yu are struggling to stand up for yourself. You knew your H was doing something dangerous. He didn't want to listen to you and put you down in front of yur friends. But you didn't say anything. Why? Why is it OK for him to put you down and tell you you know nothing about things (even if you do because of your background) but it wouldn't be OK for you to stand up for yourself? Do you think your friends would ahve supported him or thought less of you if you had?

Perhaps one way would be put everything that you would need to do if you are getting divorced in place in the mean time. That would help strenghtening your resolve.

Not sure if all that help but I wanted to tell yu you are not the oly one to find that so difficult.

Also someone mentioned before that indecision is terrible. I can relate to that too.

Try and imagine how would you feel if you had taken your final decision and got the ball rolling?

CactusRash thank you so much for your kind and reassuring reply.
I do feel under enormous pressure!
The thing with the kids - could well be rational but based on nothing concrete but snippets over the years. He comes from the other side of the world. What if he went home and the kids wanted to go too.......MIL very manipulative too adds to worry. It may well not happen, but then again....

I have been absolutely kicking myself about the camping thing. Can't believe I actually sat there and let him get on with it. It was because I felt the next would have ended up with an argument and wanted to keep the peace. Highly stupid given what the result could have been. I was furious that he had done it as I could explain clearly the problems, but also furious that even if it had been an irrational fear of fire or something, he completely rubbished it when he should have supported/looked after me.

Friends probably would have supported me. I have lost confidence in myself though I think. Stupid really, others would see me confident and capable.

Previously I had the same fear about finances and did just as you say. Found out about benefits, incomings outgoings etc etc and figured out I could actually manage ok. Big issue there though is the equity we have in the house. Although I can manage the mortgage, I wouldn't be able to pay him half of the equity. So I also looked at what I could afford locally, and it did all seem do-able.

If I had taken teh decision and got the ball rolling? Relieved I imagine!!! I keep wishing I'd stuck to my guns in Nov and then again in March. I keep beating myself up about the changes that have happened in the last few months - 1 yr old DC who would have been quite oblivious then is now almost 2 and much more attached to DH etc etc.

Oops, child to rescue from climbing frame...........

You know re your H coming from abroad. A lot of women on here have been told that they can not go back to their country of origin wo the agreement of their exH. Otherwise it is child abdusion.
The courts will always favour where the child is living so it is extremely unlikely that your H could 'take them away', however manipulative him or your MIL are.
Your dcs are also very young. Do you really see them saying they want to go and live with daddy? Do you think that point of view would be taken into account by a court?

Serioulsy, the issue would be more about your H deciding to 'go back home' and see very little of them but then that's his responsability towards the dcs not yours!

Have you been to see a sollicitor yet? Do you realize that you might be able to get more than 50% of the house and that yu would not have to leave the house and repay him the other 50% (less the morgage) immediately? There are lots of other possibilities incl you repaying a small part of it and selling the house at a later date, you staying in the house until the yougest dc is 18yo etc....

Re the fire, i totally get what you are saying. My H did something very similar with my car and its brakes. I thought there was a problem. he thought they were fine, have never been that good anyway etc... I took the car to the garage (something I normally leave to him to organize). He proceeded to be a real pain for the whole time the car was repaired, the people there were no good blabla. In the end... there was a major problem with the brakes (and one he probably created at some point when he worked on the car too). But he still hasn't appologized for it or taken any responsability.

You see just as you I can see all the bad point, all the negatives, all the reasons I should leave. And I still can't do it....

I've just read that on another thread and thought it was appropriate for both of us. (Not sure if this is good form to just copy & paste like this and hope no one will take offense)

They did a test of people's states of mind in and out of relationships according to levels of unhappiness.
Unsurprisingly, happily married/in a relationship came first.
Then happily single.
Then unhappily single
Then, and at the bottom of the list, way, WAY below unhappily single in terms of how unhappy, came unhappily married.
Because there's no hope and no looking towards the future (new friends, new partner etc), there's just the relentlessness of now.

The point I'm trying to make is that being single, even if it's not what you'd choose, is BETTER than being in an unhappy marriage.

What if I have got it all wrong and it is me?

NOo No No no, no-no.
You do not have it all wrong-you do not have any of it wrong.
These feelings are your basic instincts clawing at your insides to alert your survival mode.

Imho, your "d"h has undermined your self-esteem completely. He has shut you up (the camping incident). He has absolutely no respect for you.

He is emotionally abusing you...and (for now) through you, them. When they are old enough, they will become targets.

Why in the world are you putting up with it? You and your children are being damaged here. Your children are being raised in a dysfunctional atmosphere that will have long, long range effects. These effects are subtle and invisible but they will shape decision making that will guide the entire course of their lives.

The happy game of catch in the back yard is so superficial...it is just a little window dressing on the toxic foundation of the quality of nurturing, guidance, and love that children depend on for the future of their mental health.

I am angry for you.

A little clarity
through you, them=your dc.

You know it's always amazing how people who are not in the relationship can see things that we, in the middle of said relationship, can't see.

TeachMySelfBalance, you are totally right and it's all the result of having your self confidence damaged by all these little pout downs. One after the other they have such a devastating effect.

Last year I took the decision to change school for the dcs. I thought about it for nearly a year and when I finally did it, I was dreading it still.
What if I have got it all wrong and it is me?

Today I met a mum who did exactely the same thing than me last year. And she was as worried as I was, wondering if she had made the best choice for her dcs. Even though the truth was staring at her, her ds was so mcuh happier. Even in a couple of days, she could see the difference in his behavior.
I think that's the same. Trying the do the right thing for your dcs, you and still be scared shitless you are going to make the wrong choice.

I firmly believe the 'right'choice is not to stay in marriage because of children. I was brought up in that environment and it wasnt pleasant. I am also a very firm believer in having one life and living it the best you can. Your DC will be happy as long as they have a happy mother.

I am two months into separation. Married 7 years with 4 dc all under six. And I am managing just fine. The separation was what I needed to finally get my zest for life back. I threw myself into sorting out what needed to sort out...and two months in, I am never looking back. You CAN do it, you CAN cope, but only you can give yourself that last bit of fight left to leave.

Thanks Cactus.

NorthernerAtHeart, it does get down to 'enough is enough'. And, imho, you don't really need to explain. Presenting a doctoral dissertation for proof: as if you are hanging on for his approval of your reasoning? He will never give you approval because he has no respect for you. This relieves you of the civil responsibility of respecting him. Forget about respecting him, he doesn't deserve it. He has used up all of your respect.

The periods of 'nice-nice' are pretty much by a script aren't they? More window dressing. How long can he keep it up? Asking that question reveals that it is not sincere. It is an act of preserving his status quo so he won't have to go through the hassle of breaking in someone else (to be his household appliance with a heartbeat). That is how he ignores you-just like he ignores the toaster until he wants some toast.

I am a victim of "Death By Ten Thousand Cuts", but at the hand of my sister.
(Sister is single, -never had an intimant relationship-, no kids, and now 51.)

I have had to cut ties with her. The breaking point was when she told my then 13 yo dd to "come to her first if she ever found herself with an unwanted pregnancy". This was at the beginning of my third pregnancy 3 years ago, which was a total surprise (13 year gap).

I put up with her degradations-in all their forms- for decades because I was raised by dysfunctional parents and my emotions were diminished out of existence. I was emotionally numb. Go dormant to get along. I was on the edge of major depression when I fell pg and I truly believe the hormonal surges with prenatal vitamins and fish oil supplements helped me gain the clarity of thought that I needed to create significant boundaries.

I know this has no relation to a man & wife dynamic, but people are people. If they are toxic to you, then no matter the relation, you really need to get them out of your life.

Good luck to you.

Thanks again for more lovely and helpful responses. We spent all yesterday evening talking about what to do hence not replying until now. First proper calm conversation about it all in ages!

I have explained to him (I hope) how I feel and and how I see the future. He keeps telling me he loves me and we do have good times etc etc. It is true, but there are some utterly lousy ones too. I feel like I've lost faith,trust,belief.....respect? Whatever..... He asked if I could forgive him for various things that have happened. I don't think i can. I certainly can't forget. Even last night he was suggesting a period of time when he was helpful and supportive until I reminded him of things happening at the same time. He perceives himself to be loving and supportive, but when I need his support (and I have learned to manage life/kids without having to rely on him just incase he fails to deliver) or understanding it just isn't there. It is the more stressful times, but then surely that's when you'd want someone to step up to the mark, not just the easy times.

CactusRash - rationally I think you are completely right about the overseas issue. It is still a big fear though. RL friends echo exactly what you say I just daren't believe it!

Solicitor and Money - I haven't taken that step yet. I agree I should be eligable for more than 50%, especially as it is the kids home too. This will be where the increase in value of our house will be a pain in the neck rather than a godsend. The mortgage itself is manageable (if i can persuade the bank to let me keep it).

Aren't they (husbands) bloody annoying when they won't take responsibility for anything? Mine just can't be wrong!!

Unhappily married is a very lonely place to be, I agree.

Teachmyselfbalance - 'These feelings are your basic instincts clawing at your insides to alert your survival mode.' You have hit the nail on the head. I don't think on any single day in the last year, if I had been forced to make a decision one way or another, would I have decided to stay together.
You are right about not needing to explain why enough is enough too. Just easier to justify alongside a mamouth explosion!
I'm sorry to read of problems caused by your sister. You have done well to cut ties.

Stayforthekids - you sound so positive! So good to hear you are doing well on the other side. If it's not too intrusive, can I ask what let to you separating?

Thanks again everyone.

Northerner I think you've actually moved on there. That's great!

Please go and see a sollicitor and get a better idea of what you would be able to do with the divorce both re the house and the children. That will put your mind at rest!

Also remember, small steps and don't put pressure on yourself. You will move on when you are ready. It's not possible to turn the page just like this after 10 years+ of marriage and with young dcs in the mix. It's usually more about making kittle steps and then one day everything is becoming clear and you know divorce IS the right ting to do.

Take care!

It sounds like he is just parroting "but we have good times too" as if...
Well, it is dismissive of your concerns to say that even once.

I agree with cactus on the baby steps. Although I have not gone through divorce w/ dc, it does seem a good plan to make the foundation for your leap; then the leap could possibly seem more like just a regular everyday step.

Grocery: check
Laundry: check
Man gone: check

Do you have plans for the weekend?

Start asking him where he might live when you split? (When, not if=that will get his attention.)

Btw, something to say to the dc (including your dh )that was posted ages ago on another thread but I've remembered it: live apart parents can parent just as well as live together parents...sometimes even better.

More thanks! TMSB, your to-do list made me chuckle!

Plan for the weekend? Family outing tomorrow (and girls night out - much needed!)

I agree about the live-apart-parents thing too.

So last night more discussions - I give him no positive feedback on his efforts, I am making no effort (along with thankyou for trying really hard), what was the point in counselling. Today he has emailed me suggestions for a family holiday in a couple of months...........I'm really not getting through to him.

Hi - I posted on your thread back when it began and so remember you and your situation as I was going through it too. I started another thread a couple of weeks back and would suggest that you read it......I am rubbish at computer things so do not know how to link it (sorry) but it is called "Followed MN advice - want to hear the outcome?????"............

Not going to say anything about what it says......but do give it a read!!!!

You can PM me if you like - happy to "hold your hand". Good luck and look atfter yourself x x x

This is the thread here

Northerner, I can not get accross my H either. He seems to either stick his head in the sand or refusing to see what is going on.
Interresting that he is finding faults on your side but isn't suggesting any faults that he could have and what he could do about it.

The one thing my H though would help was for us to spend more time together doing 'things'. It's forgetting that what needs to change is the day to day stuff not the 'going out together 3 times in the year' thing.

Try to not to concentrate on his faults, what he should or shouldn't do. That would have been helpful when there was something to salvage. Now concentrate on the fact that you don't love him (and he probably doesn't really either otherwise he would act with love not from selfishness). N one deserve to live somebody they don't love. This is itself is enough to want to get divorce. This is enough to say 'enough is enough'.

Goitwrong - you have got it so right! Well done. Your situation must have been dreadful, you have done so well.

I am feeling totally overwhelmed. Feel like I could explode and desparately trying not to cry. Things look so rosy from the outside, maybe it is all in my head. I know it isn't, but does kind of feel like I'm cracking up. I feel utterly useless and withdrawn this weekend. I felt myself noticeably perk up when he went out to the shops for a bit, and again when I went out with friends last night. Maybe I'm putting that on too. It just feels refreshing though.

Argh.........

You sound like me a few years ago. Marriage was dead, no intimacy, affection, appreciation, but a dread of what it would do to the children if we split. H was content just to drift along but I wasn't. Spent years (literally) desperately trying to figure out how I could make things work (and putting a lot of unreciprocated effort into marriage) before emotionally withdrawing. That 'numbness' is just what it's like.

Anyway, H finally realised that this wasn't just a whinge or a nag and tried to be more affectionate etc but I realised it was just too little too late.

Long story short, we separated, then divorced. I'm now in my own home and children live with us both on alternate weeks. It was the hardest thing I've ever done, and I still feel tremendous guilt that I (we!!) couldn't give our children that stable homelife they deserved, but given how the situation was it was the best choice and I don't regret it for a minute.

Northerner would you be interresting in trying to support each other?

You seem to be exactely in the same situation than me, bar the fact that my H is repressing his anger. I think he thinks that it's OK because he doesn't show it. Except that he does in other ways than shouting and I am actually finding more difficult to deal with it!

I totally get what you say about the fact that everything looks so rosy from the outside. Or you think it looks so rosy from the outside.
This week end I saw my parents and they needed to know if we are coming for Christmas. H is (again) digging his heels in even though he knows it is probably one of the last chance I have to spend christmas with my gran - she is over 90yo now. Pathetic excuses again. So I told my dad we (I and the dcs) are coming. That I didn't know what H was going to do but I was fed up and he could decide whatever he intents to do. Now I have rarely talked to my parents about my relationship problems but my dad just looked at me and said 'OK, that's fine. I'm organizing everything. Just let me know for H.' He knew. He knew things weren't OK because even though I have always though things look rosy, there has been so many things that weren't acceptable over the years that they know. Does it make sense??

I guess that it's the same with you. People might not hear the arguments but they can see when you don't something because your H doesn't want to (even though it is obvious for everyone that it would be the sensible option).

The fact that you are OK wo him and feels 'lighter' is for me a sign that actually you do need to split up. That it is not 'just in your head'. It is an awful feeling that I know just too well. And I found that seeing a counsellor helped because when she told me that his behavior was hurtful and unacceptable, I then knew it wasn't 'just in my head'. Have a look at your previous threads and reread what people have being telling you. Did they think it was in your head?

Back to work tomorrow and it will be easier, not the least because you will see him less (I am finding the weekends more and more difficult tbh).

Berries Yep, I totally know what you mean about this numbness and the dred that you are going to do something horrible.
Hard isn't it?

Cactus, I'd love to, thank you :) I found your thread from earlier in the week. It does sound very similar.

You are right about others being able to see how things are - my best friend told me a few years back not to worry about not wanting to organise meeting up as families (DH always moaning about why he had to come, why people were staying over etc etc), she understood and it didn't matter. She would always be there. After I told my mum recently what was happening, she said she thought I hadn't been myself for about 8 years. 8 years!!!! (wish she had said something earlier though!)

Berries - a very difficult question so feel free to ignore - how do you cope not having your kids with you all the time? I'm terrified.

Talked again last night. Maybe he is slowly getting the idea. He apologised for being continuely useless over the years. He is trying at the moment, and managed a whole weekend of not critising me for being upset while doing lots with the kids and chores too. It is too little too late though as you say Berries.

I think it takes time to accept that it is too little too late. Perhaps because we have spend so much time trying to hold everything together that it is hard to let go of that too??

I have posted quite a lot about things that I was unhappy about re H over the last 2 years. Have name change more often than I dare thinking about. Every single time, I had people telling me on that point alone. 'Your H is a twat. Move on.' From the way he behaves with the dcs to the way he is with me and everything in between.
What really made me realize how bad it was/is is when my counsellor told me 'his behavior was a crimpling as a abuse'. And even that didn't made run to the hills. It took me time to digest it.

It's the birthday of one of my dcs in less than 2 weeks time. I am waiting for that to go and then have a word with him. Not sure I am not using another of my delaying tactics but I couldn't face putting my dcs under stress at the same time than starting school and then stopping dc2 from having a good birthday because H would be unhappy/whatever else is going to happen when I tell him. Scary....