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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

For those of you who have had affairs and others with WS insight

34 replies

lostinthejungle · 12/03/2011 02:47

Dear mums, I think this will be the first of a few threads for me. I am having a lot of trouble sorting things out in my mind, and I hope you can help.

I have been with my husband for 11 years and we have a 5 year old only son who we are both totally devoted (to put it mildly). Yet I found out last Wednesday that my husband had had an affair over a period of about 5-6 weeks at Christmas while my son and I were back home (we are currently living in South America, where my husband is from). Even though our relationship had been problematic for many years, not least since our son was born, I have been totally devastated by this news. I KNOW that both of us desperately hoped that we were close to a solution for our problems. Now I don't know what to do, honestly.

I want to believe, and honestly harbour only the tiniest doubt, that this man loves me deeply, despite what he did. His pain has been just as great as mine since I found out. He's wandering around weeping as I write. He's doing everything right along the lines of what the wonderful WWIFN has set out elsewhere in this forum. He wants to know what he can do to set things right, but there's only time and comprehension, isn't there?

So here's what I can't comprehend:

  1. How can you deeply love your partner and your child, and then betray them multiple times? I CAN understand a vulnerability that makes you do it once and regret it desperately for ever after. But please, someone, help me to understand how you can not do it the first time because you don't have a condom, then go out another day and buy condoms, and then drive to someone's house and back to screw them once or twice a week over a period of several weeks, without stopping to think about what it could do to your family, how you could lose your child over it and ruin 3 people's lives.

I understand that my husband was very vulnerable because of the state of our relationship, because of some really bad things that were going on in relation to a business he is setting up. I can understand that this woman jumped him, that it was a meaningless affair, involving sex alone. But I still can't understand how, where you have the time and space to think about your actions, you can still so profoundly damage the ones you love. He says it was like a drug, he felt bad but had to go back for more. But seriously, is the drug metaphor really accurate? Please help me to understand because I feel like I can't get past it until I do.

  1. This is small in comparison, but I only found out because crazy bitch called to tell me. She told me (I believe him on this) a bunch of lies designed to maximise my hurt and the damage to him. She was livid because he had ended it a week or two before we returned. And YET, when I confronted him, he acted all shocked and denied everything - until I got her on the phone and he heard her voice.

Okay, he was shocked, and scared of losing us. But apparently she had been threatening to do just what she did, so why such a surprise? Why no game plan? And he tells me he had even considered telling me right after I got back, but just couldn't do it/saw some stupid TV programme that said if it didn't mean anything then don't open the Pandora's Box (welcome to South America). At the beginning I actually told him that it didn't make any difference how I found out, the hurt was the same. But I was wrong. I can't forget her opening line, and I can't forget that he tried to hide what he did, for however brief a period. So the question is, how can you love someone so deeply, regret what you did, and still try to hide it, acting innocent in the face of their extreme pain?

Am I grasping at straws here? I want to believe that there are answers to these questions that mean that my husband is not a cynical bastard and that it can be true that he really loves me and will never do this again. Right now I 99.99% believe those things but am terrified in that 0.01% of being a complete fool.

I think I am going to need so much more help from the many obviously wise women on this forum, but for the time being I would appreciate it a lot if people could tell me about their reactions to these questions, no grudges held. Thanks so much!

OP posts:
ladysybil · 12/03/2011 02:55

I am of the camp that doesnt believe an affair is the worst thing a person can do to another. I also dont think an affair should be enough to destroy a family. there are far worse things. but my opinion isnt one that is shared by many.

Its very very possible to be in the sort of situation your dh was and do the things he has done, because he didnt stop and think. An analogy i would use is when a person on a diet might be eating donuts, not just one, but a whole box of krispy kremes that they actually had to go out and buy. and then repeat the action the next day, knowoing full well they are on a diet. Its obviously not on the same level of hurt to the other person in the partnership, but, I can understand how it can happen.

Only you can decide what is best for you and your dh and dc. there will be wise women on here later to give you advice and support.

sundayrose10 · 12/03/2011 05:03

affairs are so hurtful. it's been years and i still carry the scares. i left the bastard though.

hope the wise women on here really help you out and i'm sorry you're going through this.

sufficient · 12/03/2011 09:58

lostinthejungle I'm so sorry you are in this position. I will try and answer you as best I can.

  1. he could betray you because he wasnt thinking about you. He saw something he wanted and went for it, without giving you or your feelings a second thought. He probably does love you, but not enough to put you before his self-indulgent desires.

Your husband was vulnerable, not because of your relationship problems, but because of who he is as a person, his character traits and personality that meant he could give himself permission to deceive and betray you time and again.

Please don't think this woman jumped him, its a pathetic excuse, and a lie. He is responsible for his own actions. Plus, re: e drug analogy, no one "made" him do it, of course he didn't "have" to go back for more. He chose to do it every time.

  1. finding out through someone else is not "small". People I know in RL whose relationships have successfully recovered from an affair found out because the unfaithful partner confessed- they had got to the point where they were full of guilt, shame, remorse and wanted to change their lives around. I think people on here have discovered affairs and still managed to heal their relationships, but it's not a good start. He was still lying to you, right up until he couldn't say otherwise.

She might be lying, but then again she might not. Please don't believe your husband because at the moment he is not trustworthy. Only his actions over the next few weeks and months will be able to tell you otherwise.

Lots of that must be hard to read. It doesn't have to be the end, it is possible for marriages to survive. But they only will if you see things for how they really are, how your H really is, and maybe not even then. Good luck, keep posting. If you want to read all the amazing advice given to me when I was trying to repair my marriage, the thread is "what are the signs a marriage can survive an affair?"

waterrat · 12/03/2011 11:49

Im sorry lost, it's a horrendous time for you - yes, if he is sorry and wants it to work, then it might work. I also agree that relationships can come back from an affair. Life is long and we all do selfish things - and that's what it is - selfish.

There seems to be a lot of excuses coming from him - and I'm sorry to say this, but there are red flags here in terms of him lying.

It's not a small thing that she called you is it? he wasn't going to tell you - and his dishonesty led to you hearing it from her - and then he lied further. You call her a crazy bitch - but the only person who has betrayed you here is him.

are you absolutely certain that what she said was lies? You have clear evidence that this man is a liar - that he repeatedly betrayed you and lied to you and was prepared to carry on doing so. Yet you are believing him over her - I wonder why? I would presume some of what she said is probably true.

Just to stress - it is actually integral to this that you heard from her. And you need to have some proper counselling about that. He allowed you to be far more hurt and humiliated than necessary because he was too cowardly to tell you himself. You must have faith in your instinct here.

To go forward - you need to stop believing him until you see evidence. He needs to accept that his lies mean you don't trust him now - and I think you are not getting the full truth here.

she 'jumped ' him - that is absolutely pathetic. Absolute bollocks - they had an ongoing affair and he is trying to remove all his own responsibility.

If he can't be really really honest - and yes, that is going to hurt more to hear - then it won't work. He needs to know from you that you expect nothing but the truth, no matter how painful it is.

Are you in counselling? I know joint counselling is recommended, but personally I would suggest some just for you - to work out what you want and to have a really clear look back at your relationship over the past years.

Youllskimmer · 12/03/2011 11:54

I couldn't forgive an affair-it is the ultimate betrayal.

And it would be the end of my relationship/marriage without a doubt, I don't think I could respect or trust my partner again and what sort of relationship would that be?

waterrat · 12/03/2011 11:59

The reason you need to understand exactly why it happened is to ensure that if you face problems it won't happen again. What were his vulnerabilities? I would worry about him not telling you to be honest - yes it's a pandora's box - but there is a possibility here that he thought he could get away with it. And would he have simply never told you? And then - would he have been happy to do it again?

Is he sorry he did it or sorry he got caught? I think an immediate 'turning on her' from him is suspicious - a good man who had done something bad and out of character would be more likely to blame himself rather than anyone else.

I'm not laying into him - you know him and life is complex, and of course people lie when they are frightened - but I think you need to make sure you are getting the whole truth, no matter how long that takes to get to

cabbageroses · 12/03/2011 12:09

I am not going to say much except that many men ( and some women) are able to separate emotions from sex.
men can have sex with someone and see it simply as sex. They still love their wives. They put the 2 separate parts of their lives in boxes.

At the risk of being shouted at, I'd say - is it really such a big deal? he loves you, is back with you- can you move on that it was a fling that meant not much to him?

cabbageroses · 12/03/2011 12:11

I am not going to say much except that many men ( and some women) are able to separate emotions from sex.
men can have sex with someone and see it simply as sex. They still love their wives. They put the 2 separate parts of their lives in boxes.

At the risk of being shouted at, I'd say - is it really such a big deal? he loves you, is back with you- can you move on and accept that it was a short fling that meant not much to him?

I don't think you will ever understand. It's not helpful to agonise over why- it's what happens now that nmatters.

cabbageroses · 12/03/2011 12:15

sorry for the double posting.

I understand the drug analogy- I was told exactly the same by a male friend who had had an affair.

One part of your head knows it's wrong- but youjust can't stop. exual desire is a very powerful emotion- that's why logic goes out the window.

I think that sometimes unless you have felt this pull for another person- the sheer physical chemistry- it is hard to understand. Not saying it is right- but it exists.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 12/03/2011 15:20

I'm going to give you my thoughts in response to your questions, but I'm going to pose several others. I suppose I ought to forewarn you too that a lot of these questions might challenge the script you're currently carting around and the one your H is wanting you to believe and might even believe himself. Some people don't want that level of challenge though, so I will understand if you don't want to persevere with this.

  1. How could he?
    • Because by that time, he had already long since given himself permission to have an affair. The die had been well and truly cast. It wouldn't have seemed such a leap, because of the 100 steps that preceded it, each one serving to normalise the last. At this stage, he was undoubtedly well and truly in the grip of the insanity that is an affair and a more relevant question at this point would be "why wouldn't he?".

By this time, he would have moved away from any "why would I?" questions (if indeed he ever asked these of himself) and into "why not?" - so the justifications would have been left long behind and moved onto potential consequences. I'd wager that those consequences were some or all of the following: You would never find out, especially as you were out of the country and what you didn't know, couldn't hurt you. This will burn brightly for a while and then fizzle out, because it's all about intense physical chemistry and there aren't any strong feelings involved. He might not get another opportunity like this again. He thought he would be able to compartmentalise successfully, keep a secret without harm being caused to either of you and once this had ended, your marriage and him and you as individuals would be still completely unscathed.

  1. How could he lie in the face of incontrovertible evidence?

Firstly, because of fear and panic, but more meaningfully, because of his basic character and habit of lying. He had been coping with the guilt possibly even better than he thought he might and this was easier when he didn't have to see you all the time when you were away. I expect he wondered whether you would possess magic powers to instinctively know what he had been up to as soon as you locked eyes - and wondered whether it would be best to get a confession in first....but instead he watched a programme that told him what he wanted to hear and comforted himself that telling you would only hurt you unnecessarily and that he should bear the (previously non-existent or at best, lightly held) "burden of guilt" as his "penance".

Of course, the truth of this is that he didn't regret the affair and probably didn't feel much guilt - at this point. A large part of the "guilt" you are seeing now is because he has been caught and he is now having to face the consequences. A lot of those tears are in fact self-pity at the chaos and ruination to his own life, not yours or his son's.

And the real reason he didn't tell you was because he didn't want to live with the consequences of you knowing. Keeping secrets from a parter are often dressed up as being for his/her benefit and while some of that might be true, it's never the whole story and the person most likely to benefit from the secret was him, not you.

Which leads me to some observations and questions.

I don't doubt for a second that he loves you deeply. I don't doubt for a second that whatever bargains you are trying to make about how if your relationship has been better, this wouldn't have happened, this has less to do with your relationship and far more to do with him.

Affairs can happen in good marriages, if you accept as I do that no marriage is permanently characterised by hearts and flowers romance, amazing frequent sex all of the time and exclusive, focused mutual attention and adoration. That in every healthy normal marriage, there will be times when the focus shifts and when life gets in the way for a time. It is too easy and simplistic to put the spotlight on an infidelity-blighted marriage and find causative factors, because those would be found (and far worse) in most marriages, for some of the time.

So while affairs can happen if there are no relational factors at all, they never happen if the individuals have a mature and pragmatic approach to infidelity, lots of self-awareness and a core belief that it is never justifiable to deceive and lie.

It's mature and pragmatic to acknowledge that everyone is potentially vulnerable to the attentions of someone else. It is disingenuous to say it doesn't feel good when someone else desires us, respects us or adores us. This can happen without reference to our primary relationships, but the wise move is to acknowledge it and swerve the tempation, not feed it until it gets too difficult to resist.

The self-awareness comes from knowing your boundaries and your weak spots. Many men in your H's position are suckers for damsels in distress and their chosen affair partner often turns out to be volatile, needy and with a train-wreck back history of failed or abusive relationships. Hence, the weak-spot is rescuing tendencies which are all the more emphasised if his wife is competent, level-headed and independent; the antithesis of the OW.

Other bits of self-awareness are some acknowledgement that a person is at a vulnerable time in life (i.e. mid-life) and needing an escape, feeling that the adventures in life might be over, feeling depressed (depressed people are especially vulnerable to affairs), recognition that one's own esteem has in the past been defined by one's attractiveness to others - and so it goes on.

The last bit is about core beliefs and these would have taken however many years your H has lived, to be shaped and formed. What he needs to concentrate on is what his beliefs were about fidelity before he started this affair - not what he believes now.

The key to this all is personal responsibility (hence do please jettison the idea that the OW jumped him) and what behaviours and character traits existed in your H before this happened. Focus on him as an individual, then have a look at what your lifestyle vulnerabilities were, but recognise that making changes to your relationship is the easy bit. Changing a person's character, belief and behaviours is much harder, but it really is the key.

Good people who love their partners are having affairs, but they only do so if they under-estimate their vulnerability to temptation, fail to take precautions based on self-awareness and are then able to lie and deceive, if only for a short time.

Because I suspect you are focusing on the start of the affair, what I want you to do is to go back long before it and timeline what led up to it. You will have done this in relation to your relationship already, but I want your H to focus instead on himself and what caused him to detach and under-invest in your marriage, because affairs can only happen if there has been detachment and under-investment.

Sometimes those two have occurred long before the affair and sometimes they happen, because of the presence of an affair opportunity.

Timeline the lot and it is essential that you know when your H had first contact with this woman. Start the affair clock from this point and no later, to assess when the under-investment and detachment preceded that date, or followed it.

Whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of thinking that because this affair was "just" a sexual fling that wouldn't have happened at all if the OW hadn't offered, at a time when your relationship needed some attention, that is the whole story and that all it will take is an improved relationship and you getting over your hurt, to out this behind you.

Affairs mean something. But truly, they mean more about the person having them than anyone or anything, else.

wotnext · 12/03/2011 17:09

It's horrible what he has done to you & he is only trying to do whatever he can to save himself.
By the sound of it the OW is a vulnerable 1 & he has taken her & used her for his own selfish means this has came back & bit him big time.
I would ask myself this...... you think she is a bit OTT? He went with her what does this say about him?
He has to be honest with you he cant, it took the OW to tell you & if he can be so shallow to blame her then i would be worried.
In a weird sort of of way she has done you a favor otherwise you would be oblivious to his infidelity.
Only you can decide if you want to continue with him but i would find it very hard to trust him again.
I think most people in general deem affairs/infidelity to be a deal breaker but there are the ones that 'put up with it' usually because the man has came back to them etc.
Trust is the core of any relationship & if you cant trust him then that will bring its own problems, moving on from this is one thing but how will you ever trust him again?
I feel for you & whatever you decide best of luck but show no mercy he needs punishing one way or another x

cabbageroses · 12/03/2011 17:30

I know plenty of men- through friends of friends- who have had affairs and are happy in their marriages. There is no "detachment and under investment". They have a fling because they can.

I think the reply from WWIFN is very much a woman's perspective and not one which many men would recognise.

it's an ego boost, it's attention, it may be sex that they don't get at home.....but it doesn't mean they are detached.

LittleMissHissyFit · 12/03/2011 18:10

There are predatory women everywhere and South America is certainly no exception. I lived there for 2 years, and it really was another world entirely.

My 'H' has an Ex from Colombia who won't move on. Over 10 years now. There are different rules at play here so while it might appear to be fair to say don't attack the OW she wasn't the one to betray OP, and on some level it may be fully appropriate for OP to say this.

From my own experience of living abroad and living with a foreign male in his country, the women of his land feel that they somehow have a right to have a bash at bagging him for themselves.

Foreign wives somehow don't count apparently.

WWIFN advice to you OP is as ever super solid gold.

lostinthejungle · 13/03/2011 15:18

Ladies, you are so fab. Whatever about the dehumanising side of the internet, I am so alone here. I have only been here a year and haven't developed deep enough friendships to be able to really turn to anyone. So your support and advice, whether I or anyone else can fully take it on board or not, is totally invaluable to me to work things through in my mind. (And if I didn't say it before, THANK YOU for wading through my very long posts. I'm normally really concise, but just can't find a way to make this stuff shorter.)

I'm immensely grateful to all of you, but I want to say special thanks to WWIFN (I have found your advice on other threads amazing. There are some things in your perspective I find difficult to fully comprehend and hope we can thrash them out here) and to LittleMissHissyFit for pointing out that there is a cultural issue here in relation to the OW. Glad to hear from someone familiar with the particular environment I'm dealing with!

On the cultural point, I want to make it clear that I feel my husband is - what - 98% to blame for what happened. Forgive me if I can't help but reserve that 2% for crazy bitch (and to call her that does not give any indication of the blind rage I feel towards him). I realise it is possible that H is lying through his teeth about how it all happened - I am not as innocent as perhaps I seem. But personal relationships in this country are really ***ed up, more than they are back home in my opinion. The women do regard any man as fair game (men are worse of course), there is no regard for marriage or other people's children or even ones' own - the place is littered with abandoned families, parentless kids all over the place. (I sound like some bible basher but I just find the lack of regard for others' lives really disturbing. I so regret having come here.) Really, it is totally plausible that she jumped him, whether it is ultimately true or not.

But on the same point, this is much more important - I misled many of you into thinking that H blames her, he has not done that once. It was me that insisted and insisted on knowing who had made the first move. I have no way of knowing for certain if his answer is true - I will never have the evidence you refer to, waterrat - but I do believe him (his face is easy to read if you confront him directly - in fact, when he tried to deny the whole thing initially that's when I knew for certain it wasn't just some massive plot by a disgruntled business partner). But in the end it just doesn't really matter, does it? The responsibility is his and he is owning it completely - it's one of the few things I can't fault him on. (@ wotnext, what does it say about my husband that he allowed himself to feel desired, desirable, "manly" because of the attentions of such an obviously screwed up and desperate woman? It says a lot about how totally pathetic, retarded and infantile he has been (if only you could hear the way I spit those words out). By the way, I did actually thank OW on the telephone for telling me, but I sort of don't feel that charitable towards her now?.)

WWIFN, we have made a start on looking for a counsellor (tho I have a lot of doubts about finding a suitable one here). But in the meantime we have begun to go through the points that you make which I find so massively useful as a framework (are you a pro, per chance? If so, can I pay you for further advice??!). Here's my doubt. It's what cabbagerose points out about the basic nature of men vs. many/most women. What do you think about that - really? My husband swears blind (and like I say, I know this man's face and it is extremely hard to disbelieve), that until the moment she made her move he had not considered ever betraying me, as completely desperate as he was feeling about our relationship. He thought non-betrayal and honesty was part of his fundamental code, and that was always our joint understanding. He is setting up a cafe (with MY SAVINGS! I will post below about our relationship history), and this woman was a potential supplier he went to see. He first met her about 3 weeks before I left. Swears blind that he never thought about her for a second thereafter. Not until second business meeting when she made her move, about 2 weeks after I had left. "Just a kiss" at that point, but thereafter she kept calling and texting him to go back. Then some days later he asked me on the phone if I missed him and I said "no!", lol, joke, joke, but it was true, and it reflected the state of our relationship. So he took that as the go-ahead to go out, buy the condoms and head for her house.

I have harped on and on at him to be totally honest with himself about his feelings for this woman from the time they met, and the point at which he decided it was acceptable for him to do what he did. But he passionately insists that it went down as I just described. And this is where I wonder if the male mentality thing comes in, WWIFN. Like I said in my original post, I CAN understand the vulnerability that makes something like this happen once. I remember aeons ago falling into bed with a married man. I was so green I believed his lies about his "awful" wife (it was only years later I copped on). But, crucially, I still knew what I was doing was wrong. I was simply in a weak state of mind and needed the physical affection enough to give in. I believe that is along the lines of what happened with my husband, albeit poles apart in terms of the magnitude of the offence. He was in a very bad place - he was clearly depressed, as was I - and she offered him a temporary exit. I struggle desperately with the issue of it happening multiple times, but I just wonder if it's apples vs oranges. I could never do what he did, but I am me (woman) and he is he (man). I thought he was a very special man in terms of his emotional intelligence, but clearly this has taken him off that pedestal. So is it not that the same kind of weakness in he and I just manifests itself in such different ways? That men - in general - can take things further before they realise what massive damage they are doing? In other words, that they are - in general - so much more PATHETIC AND STUPID than most women? (Sorry, not in the mood to be generous and balanced here.)

There is obviously so much more about my conversations with H that I haven't yet written up, in the interests of "brevity" (!). The why he didn't tell me, the whether he will ever do it again, etc. But probably the most crucial thing is about his failure to TALK to me about the depth of his unhappiness and need for physical affection, either before I left or before things were about to happen. I am so desperately hurt that he didn't, but he says he just didn't feel able. I do have a very dominant personality and am very coherent and strident in my arguments, which intimidates him. So I'd like to explain a bit more about the nature of our relationship and will do another post below on this - so sorry to go on and on!

Thank you all so much, please keep feeding my thoughts.

OP posts:
lostinthejungle · 13/03/2011 15:21

So, here's the background: I suspect you will all be telling me to just cut my losses, so it would be a sort of a relief if you ended up on his side!

We have had a very unhealthy dynamic for most of our relationship, I suppose. He is 7 years younger, from a very poor background, me comfortably middle class. Me PhD, he at the time with a couple of years of uni under his belt. All I thought about at the time was that he was a beautiful person; all that has ever really mattered to me is whether someone is good and gentle, not their training or status or finances. I now know, sadly, that is not the way to go about looking for a partner. Anyway, those differences made our relationship difficult from the start, worsened substantially by the fact that I am fiery and critical and he shuts down when criticised. Despite his background I always expected (and he promised) that he would be able to give me security in my life, that he would make a decent living, take at least half the responsibility for married life (you know, filing taxes, evil landlords, all that crap, just helping life to tick along). But it never worked out that way. Bad South American Stuff meant that he ended up having to repeat his uni course from scratch - took 6 or 7 years. Me paying for all of course. Always feeling like he wasn't putting his whole effort into it, rather sitting there surfing internet or whatever. Feeling like yes, he faced a lot of obstacles, but that someone with more drive would have overcome them. Me carrying the far greater burden of keeping life ticking along - earning well, but in a stressful job I didn't like.

Then, when DS came along, H became SAHD. Really beautiful for our son, H is an OUTSTANDING father, but I resented the fact that I couldn't chuck my job in and stay home with my boy like I wanted. I became quite badly depressed. I ended up leaving my job a couple of years ago after going through pretty much a breakdown, and then coming here so H could get his act together. Brief honeymoon at dawn of new possibilities, but then after months of being here his plans for a cafe still hadn't come to any kind of fruition. Bad luck after bad luck after bad luck. And me feeling like it's not possible to have that much bad luck, however difficult an environment it is here, that somehow he must just be screwing up. Because he IS, like many men, totally disorganized and forgetful and that pisses me off endlessly.

Anyway, over the course of our relationship I gradually became more and more bitchy and critical and he stonewalling more and more. Still a lot of love between us, and massive shared love for son, but worse and worse communication and worse and worse sex life. I lost respect for H. Put him down a lot and was domineering because I felt it was my right because he wasn't stepping up and keeping his promise. Throughout, he has remained very physically affectionate - and not just sexually. He did badger and badger for sex (this is the kind of guy who would do it twice a day if he could) but more often than not I just was not up for it - maybe we were doing it every 3 wks or so, but it was not good, it was mechanical for me. He would tell me that he loved me, but I couldn't answer because I was feeling so damaged. I explained that to him more than once, that it did NOT mean that I didn't love him, just that the words didn't flow, but he obviously couldn't absorb that. He now tells me he really felt I didn't love him any more. Also, before I left for Christmas I had told him (after yet another rejection) I didn't feel attracted to him because he wasn't being the man he promised he would be. And it was true, but it hurt him deeply (he now tells me).

So as you can see, a seriously unhealthy dynamic. Chicken and egg - he blames his lack of drive and failure to communicate on my bitchy personality. I blame my bitchiness on his lack of drive and failure to communicate. (And of course NONE of this justifies what H ultimately did, and he completely accepts that.)

So here are the reasons that I have not yet packed my bags:

  1. We have this beautiful, hyper-sensitive kid that we have both wanted to give nothing but the very best. We both desperately want him to have a happy and stable family life, even harder as we have been unable to give him a sibling, he has no cousins, there is no extended family. We are from different continents. If we separate, daddy is not going to be just around the corner for a sleepover. This is what is most killing us now - the prospect of damaging him so deeply. I can only be honest and say that if it were not for DS, I would be back home now and making a new life. But because I don't want to do that to DS, I WANT to get past these problems with H, and I want to try and recover a marriage that will make us all happy.

  2. Can we do that? Well, finally, after nearly 11 years, H is on the verge of having his own business and making a real go of being a man, providing for his family and being an example to his son. The cafe should be opening within the next few weeks. I feel like I need to give this some (limited period of) time to see if he can make it work, and if I can recover my respect for him. This may never happen, particularly after the affair. But for my son I feel like trying.

Do you think I'm being completely stupid?

OP posts:
waterrat · 13/03/2011 15:54

I think the argument about infidelity is very interesting - all I can say is that I agree with WWIFN - I think infidelity is not down to opportunity - which hopefully we will all be offered at some point in our life -it's about our own character.

I can imagine being tempted and flattered by someone fancying me, but I would never, ever say that this opportunity was responsible for me being unfaithful. It is pragmatism and a long view that keeps us faithful - a clear understanding in our own minds of what commitment actually means. ie. you need to be able to think carefully about what you are risking for some ego stroking and sexual gratification. I have discussed these kinds of things with my partner - had you ever done that before this happened? ie. we all will be tempted - but it's who we really are as people that affects what we do. It's really not about the temptation itself.

I really strongly disagree with assumptions about 'men' - I know many men who are far more sensible and less likely to be unfaithful than their partners - and vice versa.

I also notice that you say 'men are disorganised' - sorry, I have to pull you up on this - that is complete bollocks. My partner, just to take on example, is far more organised and hard working than I am. I wonder if you are creating these kind of excuses for him - yet underneath, in your heart, you know that actually he is responsible for the way his life has turned out.

How can you say 'men are disorganised'? Men make up most board members in companies in the city, they are most politicians, they earn most of the money - we live in a male dominated world. Why are you excusing your partners laziness on the grounds that 'men are disorganised' as though he is a child? You know, looking around you at the way the world works, that men in fact have most of the power.

Its very difficult to tell someone what to do over the internet. But instinctively I feel from reading your last post that you know he has not worked hard enough and has been lazy - and it seems he has a character that has justified his own behaviour to him. Only you can decide whether it's worth making another try at things.

But - please stop making excuses for him - and - re. infidelity, I really do believe that it is about the individual and what their personal beliefs about the world are - it is not about the temptation that happens to them. Many people go through life having countless opportunities that they do not take advantage of - your partner needs to look at his own character and beliefs if this is to be mended.

But - yes, life is complex, I am sure you are doing the right thing trying to make it work - but it is more likely to work if you really make sure he is confronting the truth about himself.

cabbageroses · 13/03/2011 16:19

Op- having read all your two long posts, two things jump out at me- correct me if I am wrong.

  1. Expectation that this man would provide security for you. See " Despite his background I always expected (and he promised) that he would be able to give me security in my life,".

Why? Why would you expect anyone to provide you with security? As a mature, educated person should you not provide your own security?

  1. You seem to be punishing him for his not being able to be a high achiever- or contribute financially, yet you say that this is not important to you.

3.You said, "making a real go of being a man, providing for his family and being an example to his son........ and if I can recover my respect for him."

If you don't mind me saying so, you seem to have a very traditional view of what a man should provide. Whatever the reasons for his failing his course and starting over, you have chosen to be critical. Yes, you have supported him financially- but you are not happy about that, are you?

Why were the dynamics all wrong? Because he was younger? Because he was not financially independent? Class differences? Because he didn't meet your expectations?

You see, other people could face all of these things in a relationship and be really happy- it would not matter a jot.

There seems to be a big difference between what you say you want- and what you really want.

What comes over very strongly is that this is a parent-child relationship. Psychotherapists say that long-term relationships fit into 3 categories eventually- child/child; parent/child; brother sister.

Although the brother/sister one may be least sexual, it has a history of lasting better than the other two.

Which is yours?

I see that it is parent/child- yet everything you write shows your expectations that the man should be the provider, be an example to his son, etc etc. What you chose was the precise opposite of this.

It's not hard to see ( though still not justified) why your DH should take "refuge" in another woman's arms if he was feeling rejected by your critical stance on everything he has done. I am not saying anything here that you have not said yourself- you said you have been a bitch to him.

I think you really do need counselling to unravel how your childhood laid down expectations of what you think a partner should be. Often women choose the exact opposite of a parent- as a type of subconscious rebellion- or choose the same person as their father.

I agree that he has not pulled his weight inthe relationship fiancially, but the point is that you knew all of this when you met- the age difference, the lack of education compared to you, etc etc.

When and why did you become irritated and impatient with him?

If your respect for him boils down to his earning a living and supporting you all- is that a sign of real love for him? Or have you an idealised/fantasy of marriage?

cabbageroses · 13/03/2011 16:29

Anyway, over the course of our relationship I gradually became more and more bitchy and critical and he stonewalling more and more. Still a lot of love between us, and massive shared love for son, but worse and worse communication and worse and worse sex life. I lost respect for H. Put him down a lot and was domineering because I felt it was my right because he wasn't stepping up and keeping his promise. Throughout, he has remained very physically affectionate - and not just sexually. He did badger and badger for sex (this is the kind of guy who would do it twice a day if he could) but more often than not I just was not up for it - maybe we were doing it every 3 wks or so, but it was not good, it was mechanical for me. He would tell me that he loved me, but I couldn't answer because I was feeling so damaged. I explained that to him more than once, that it did NOT mean that I didn't love him, just that the words didn't flow, but he obviously couldn't absorb that. He now tells me he really felt I didn't love him any more. Also, before I left for Christmas I had told him (after yet another rejection) I didn't feel attracted to him because he wasn't being the man he promised he would be. And it was true, but it hurt him deeply (he now tells me).

Worth pointing out that many people say:
Men need sex to feel loved, women need to feel loved to have sex.

If you are looking for reason why he strayed, it's all here in what you wrote.

Not saying he was doing the right thing- but you are both humans who are not 100% perfect all of the time.

dittany · 13/03/2011 16:40

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cabbageroses · 13/03/2011 16:48

one more thing- how old is he?
I am working out that he might be 30 -ish if that?

That's still young for a man to make his way in the world of work ,especially these days with the recession and being a mature graduate.

He has the responsibility of a child and he's making a good shot of that.

Maybe you simply chose the wrong man? Sounds as if you really want someone who is more together, more successful, more like a father figure.

Be intersted to know why you thought he wa s mr Right in the first place. You appear to have chosen him on his "promises" of what he could become to suit your needs.

I am not saying forget his short fling- but there are fundamentals in your relationship that need tackling.

dittany · 13/03/2011 16:56

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cabbageroses · 13/03/2011 17:28

Dittany- I didn't say that. I said it was understandable how he might have been feeling.

I don't feel it is helpful to attribute blame either way when these things happen. Understanding why is better.

dittany · 13/03/2011 17:43

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elliott · 13/03/2011 17:54

I'm searching for any evidence that you love him- and I can't find much. Perhaps you are not being entirely honest with yourself about that. I feel for you, you have made so many sacrifices to try and make the relationship work, but I think you know deep down that you made the wrong choice. It's important to respect your partner and admire themas a human being- I don't think you do, and you sound weary of carrying everything in the relationship. Not what you want to hear, I know.

cabbageroses · 13/03/2011 18:09

I agree with you Elliot

OP when you wrote this:
I had told him (after yet another rejection) I didn't feel attracted to him because he wasn't being the man he promised he would be.

It seems to show that your entire marriage is based on what he promised he might be one day. or what youhoped for.

Do you think a lot of your anger and disappointment is at yourself? You made a choice based on what someone promised they could become- rather than what they were?

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