Why do women do it?

[Pandamoanium]

Reading threads here about infidelity and all the pain it causes, makes me wonder why women do it - be the OW I mean?

I have always had a code for myself, after suffering a lot from a previous BF's continuous infidelity, that I would never put another woman through it. Knowingly anyway.

I was the OW for a short while, but as soon as I realised he was married, I dumped him fast and never saw him again. And felt guilty for ages about his poor wife. Especially as I found out that he was dating me during the latter stages of her pregnancy. I thought he was despicable for doing this to her and I couldn't get away fast enough.

So why can't women be sisters to each other and avoid men like this?

It's always the womans fault isn't it!

Hurrah! I get to say "What about the menz?"

The question is really, why are some people shits to others? Answer, depends.

I don't think it's all women's fault and wasn't saying that at all! I was just looking at this from a sisterhood perspective. I have no idea how men think, so I wasn't asking them.

Often because they don't think there's anything wrong with it and they don't realise just how much upset they cause.

They also believe the lies men tell them - not having sex, unhappy at home, she doesn't really love him anymore, blah blah blah.

We live in a society where men are considered fully human and women are the other, not quite as human as men. So we are not socialised to empathise with each other, we are socialised to empathise with men IMO. The most obvious expression of this is rape, where women are just as likely - sometimes even more so - to blame the rape victim than men aer, but infidelity is another symptom of this.

I do find it more interesting to ask why men do it - for some reason, men who go after other men's wives, are considered morally more decrepid than women who go after other women's husband. Or is that just an impression I have?

I think there are as many reasons for being an OW as there are reasons for affairs. The stereotype of the OW who is lied to by some dastardly man, doesn't accurately reflect the true picture in 2011.

For some, it's low self-esteem or to put right unresolved hurts in their childhood. For some, it's because they hate other women and see them as competition in a marketplace. For some, it's a guilt-free active choice, rather than preferring a monogamous relationship and for some (although fewer than I think people would like to believe) they are duped into having a relationship with someone who later turns out to be attached. Strong fabulous women like you OP, walk away from the latter type of relationships, whereas weaker characters protest that they can't "because they are in love".

I also have no idea how one human can do this to another and collude with a woman's partner to cause her and her children pain. Even more unfathomable are those women who do it to their friends or their female relatives.

In response to HerBex's point, I was socialised to have great empathy with my fellow women and consequently, female friendship has been a constant in my life. The vast majority of my female friends would therefore (like me), rather chew their own leg off, than become an OW.

However, I've also noticed what you have about men's view of male philanderers, but I sometimes think there is a much more distinct code of honour and fairness amongst men.

Mustn't forget that lots of OW are attached or married themselves too. The ones who protest that they wouldn't be having an affair if their H was kinder, more attentive, wanted more sex etc., but they are only too happy to see another wife treated badly by the man she's having an affair with.....

IMO women need love and attention, the other man can smell this a mile off (like a dog on heat) so there you have it...quite simple really..

WWIFN - I wish I had known you when I was in the situation of being cheated on over and over by my exDP! I have read so many messages by you on these threads and you are so wise :)

Thnk goodness I now have a wonderful husband who I trust totally. I wish everyone could have someone like him.

I did it when I was very young. I've told this story before: I stopped messing about when I met The Wife at a party. Her pain and anxiety were so evident, I instantly saw what I'd been a part of and dumped her H. He then went on to have more affairs with his students (yes, he was my lecturer ) and eventually left her for one of them. I hope she soon realised she was better off without him! His students didn't cause her pain. He did.

Despite that - and despite having subsequently been the cheated wife - I did sleep with one or two married men in adulthood. These were never affairs, and there was no chance of being caught. I have to say I don't envy those men's wives: they're married to players. I never went out of my way to 'tempt' them and I hardly feel I'm so irresistible that they forgot themselves!

I know there are women who get a special kick out of being mistresses. It's an unpopular view on here, but I say good luck to them if they really are comfortable with it. I very much doubt they force their 'boyfriends' to stick their penises in them ... The guilty parties are the cheaters. No two ways about it.

What cracks me up is the silly bints who start a relationship with a married/unavailable man, only to discover years down the line that said man is now having an affair behind their backs too. Surely it doesn't take a genius to realise that if he was once capable of doing that to his (now) ex, he's more than capable of doing it to you?

I've mentioned before my friend who had an affair with a MM. She did have her own moral code, although it's a million miles away from mine. When it started she didn't know he had someone else, and didn't want to know, although I think she had her suspicions. Eventually it became impossible not to know he had a wife and children. At that point her rationale was that she wasn't taking anything away from them, because he travelled in his job anyway and would have been staying in a hotel, it just so happened it was her house and if there was anything else going on, did it really matter? She even assured me that she was good for the marriage because she encouraged him to spend time with his kids (damn' good of her wasn't it!). When his wife was away once she popped round to theirs for a quick one in the marital bed. Why not? She wasn't there, was she? What she didn't know wouldn't hurt her. All she had to do was trust her husband and she wouldn't notice the difference whether he was faithful or not.

No, it wouldn't work for me either, but it worked for her. (Didn't work for the wife though. She threw him out eventually.)

Too many undefined "she's" in there, hope you can make sense of it. Translation available on request!

Ah, such are the bargains people make, to avoid having to take personal responsibility for their actions, eh Annie?

Women are not responsible for what men do with their dicks. It's the man's job to either remain monogamous or, if he's unhappy in his marriage/relationship and doesn;t consider it fixable, to leave it.

As to the various reasons why people get involved in adulterous relationship, some are good, some are bad. Sometimes it is a case of rescuing someone from a toxic relationship (or helping them to rescue themselves) or indeed boosting the sustainability of a difficult relationship eg when one partner has refused any sexual activity yet there are strong reasons for not separating: a discreet affair with someone who has no interest in wrecking the relationship can keep all concerned happy.

I don't get the 'sisterhood' thing. We're all individuals. Some of us are selfish, amoral bastards. You can be in ownership of either set of genitals and still not give a fuck about other people. By definition, if there is an odious OW, there is an odious husband/partner happily lying to their wife/partner. We can only take responsibility for our own actions, and I have never believed that someone can 'steal' someone else's husband/wife/significant other.

Women are responsible for their own behaviour and no-one else's, that's for sure. But if that behaviour would bring unhappiness to another if discovered, then that's pretty callous and irresponsible SGB. It's also incredibly naive to suggest that a "discreet affair" keeps everyone happy, SGB.

All the while someone's being deceived, the participants have no idea whether the person being kept in the dark would be "happy" but it's a fair guess that this person would not be happy at all - and the affair partners know that, hence they keep the affair secret and deceitful.

Too right WWIFN. As I've said this is a good friend despite our different opinions on a number of topics, and she would do (has done!) anything for a friend or relative in trouble, but it's amazing how often she can explain that the only right, logical course of action is exactly what she wants to do, and it's not selfish at all really because...

You may have been socialised to have lots of empathy for other women WWIFN and I think discovering feminism in my teens socialised me that way too, but I really believe lots of girls and women aren't - they really are taught to see other women as competition.

Viz the men thing, there is more of a code isn't there - is it a hangover of the old idea that a woman was another man's property and you don't take another man's property, whcih women don't have quite so much respect for because they never had any property to begin with? Someone recently told a story about how some bloke shouted sexually suggestive abuse at her in the street and when her boyfriend who was a little way behind her furiously remonstrated with him, he apologised to her boyfriend not to her "didn't know it was your girlfriend mate" (ie she didn't count as a person in her own right). Is it that many men still see women as a reflection of the man they're with, rather than people in their own right and so they have enough respect for the men who "own" those women, not to overstep the mark?

(I'm not wedded to this idea btw, just tossing ideas around)

Some of my experience supports your theory, Bex. After my relationship ended, many of my long-standing male friends made a move. I'd not had the faintest idea they fancied me. They all said they couldn't say anything while I was married. They, however, were still married ...

Oh yes that's quite a common phenomenon...

My married friend is having an affair with a mutual friend of theirs. I have no idea how she can do it to her husband especially when they all spend time together as "mates". Her husband is a good man and a very good husband, ok not perfect, but that's no excuse. The OM is a lothario with clearly no conscience. So why does she do it?

You tell me...

I'm married, he's married, we both have children, we flirt at work and have just started texting outside of work. It's a recipe for disaster, but it's exciting, it doesn't feel real, more like a game. I'm bored, it's addictive, like I said recipe for disaster. I guess I'm just awful and have low moral standards and no respect for my husband, children or myself.

I've lurked before but never posted. I had an affair - I was chased without me realising (I was probably naive, yes), the chase continued and I said no though I had fallen for him by then, eventually I gave in ... and we worked together and no it wasn't that easy to walk away.

These things are, to use a cliche, complicated, and upsetting for everyone involved and no one can understand anyone's situation unless they have been there. My friends were great, my family knew about it and were mostly supportive, their primary concern was for me and they were angry at him. All are normal, upstanding members of society - sorry if that cuts through some of the traditional images. I am sorry for the pain of everyone involved but it is not as simple as 'OW is a bitch and wife is an angel' I'm afraid. One friend, who is a very caring and quite meek individual, actually wrested the phone off me when his wife had called to abuse me yet again and spoke to his wife on my behalf as she was sick of seeing me so upset. Does that make her sisterhood or not? ... One (older) woman who was particularly supportive of me had actually been betrayed by her partner just a couple of months before very badly and they had split up. As she said, every situation is different.

I don't know what the man involved was thinking, I am not sure he was thinking, really. We did love each other very much and he was pretty weak in the face of his wife's threats. He left home three times but we are no longer together because I ended it. It should never have happened in an ideal world but then I am not sure their marriage should have, though it produced two lovely children. Life is complicated. But he was the one who entered the marriage contract, not me, as I repeatedly reminded him. And they chose the way they behaved within it. I know people who had met his wife and known him for a while and they said it had not been right for a long time.

As for 'sisterhood', I am close to my own sister and have plenty of female friends ... and some male friends. This weekend I am going away with some friends and their daughter who is my goddaughter. I also have a godson and support many couples I know in their relationships (and their children). All but one know of my 'terrible history' and the ones who don't know I think suspect and have said whatever the issue I was dealing with was it doesn't matter. We support each other as friends or family, gender does not come into it. As someone has already said, we are all individuals. I don't think it's a choice between supporting people just because they are the same gender as you or going against them because they are competition for the same reason. I just don't get that, I'm afraid. Some women can be a complete nightmare, so can some men. Other men and women are great. Both men and women have certain traits you could generalise about but surely we should relate to each other as individuals rather than set out to hurt someone or support someone simply because of their gender?

Flame me, I don't mind, because I read all sorts about OW and I know the stereotypes and I know they are often not true. Life is not black and white unfortunately, but fortunately we are all individuals, and human, and we would often do better to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before making assumptions.

Some of the stereotypes you mention though, Something are not on this thread. And I have often said that it doesn't help our understanding of infidelity if we paint the protagonists in one-dimensional terms.

I don't think this is about sisterhood either, but I do think it's about humanity and treating others as we would like to be treated. Just because you made that woman no promises, it doesn't mean that you were absolved of your responsibility to behave with integrity to another human being. Causing harm to a stranger is still wrong.

I also think you are demonising this man's wife and seem indignant that she was angry towards you. using your analogy, perhaps you need to imagine walking in her shoes to have full empathy with her position. She might have all sorts of flaws in her personality and character and it certainly doesn't follow that all betrayed wives are "angels" no more than any of us are, but she was a human being who was hurting terribly and whatever her faults, didn't deserve to be deceived.

Her H does sound like a weak man, especially if he was hiding beneath her skirts and alleging that she was making "threats". What you were also told about their marriage, by him and the people who really aren't friends at all, might be very different to the reality.

No-one really knows what goes on in a relationship and how people present their marriages to their affair partners is frequently jaundiced and contaminated by another agenda. You say he was weak and he was evidently supremely selfish - who knows what she had been putting up with for years? Infidelity never happens in a vacuum, that's for sure. His weak character and selfishness would have manifested in their relationship repeatedly, before his affair.

However, as I always say. Good people have affairs and good people do bad things, for a time. If it is isolated to a single bad period or relationship, it doesn't have to define a person. If it becomes a pattern however, it might.

I have a friend who was once in your situation and what helped her was to take responsibility for her own behaviour and to see how her own actions had contributed to so much pain. She had been saying some of the same things as you; claiming no responsibility as the single woman, criticising the wife and being rather self-indulgent about the man's weakness (it was also just about the worst thing she ever used to say about him, so I had a wry smile when I saw your post ).

Once she'd started to see his behaviour more clearly and could more accurately identify that actually, he was selfish and manipulative, she was able to humanise his wife more. Once she'd done that and was able to take responsibility for her own part in this, she was able to detach and walk away, resolving never to get involved in a relationship like this again.