Why do women do it?

[Pandamoanium]

Reading threads here about infidelity and all the pain it causes, makes me wonder why women do it - be the OW I mean?

I have always had a code for myself, after suffering a lot from a previous BF's continuous infidelity, that I would never put another woman through it. Knowingly anyway.

I was the OW for a short while, but as soon as I realised he was married, I dumped him fast and never saw him again. And felt guilty for ages about his poor wife. Especially as I found out that he was dating me during the latter stages of her pregnancy. I thought he was despicable for doing this to her and I couldn't get away fast enough.

So why can't women be sisters to each other and avoid men like this?

Top post as ever, WWIFN. I enjoyed the two above yours, as well. It's good to see honesty. Interesting the words 'weak' and 'selfish' appearing more now. That's exactly how I described (to myself) the married men I slept with. Nice guys, every one, but I don't envy their wives. Those men are emotionally immature. Perhaps they've grown up since then - I hope so - but does a person who 'takes', like a toddler takes sweets at the checkout, often grow out of it? I suspect not.

I like the way you say your friend 'grew up', in the sense of coming to see her lover for the emotionally weedy person he was, instead of a magical creature trapped by the wicked witch.

Unless someone actively pursues a person who is in a supposedly monogamous relationship, I really don't think that the OW/OM is responsible for the feelings of their lover's partner. The onus is always on the 'betraying' person to choose whether or not to embark on sexual activity outside the boundaries agreed with an existing partner.
But I really do have a huge problem with this idea of human beings as 'property' which can be 'stolen'.

Well we will always disagree about our responsibility to others SGB but I agree that human beings are not property that can be stolen, but then so does everyone else on this thread, it would appear.

Irrespective of the moral component, it can be that it is neither a matter of deluding oneself that one is in love nor an active way of 'competing' with other women.

After a certain age, married men tend to be better groomed and better looked after. They're certainly more confident, and I would also wager they're likely to be better in bed, because a long-term partnership gives one confidence to explore and talk and refine one's technique. If one is looking for something strings-free, part-time and/or discreet, married men are perfect. Women do look for those things.

While I always adore your posts, WWIFN, I think on this one you may be attributing too much motivation to women who date married men. Some women just want a good shag. I realise you did say that, but I wonder whether it gets lost in all the 'low self esteem/deluding themselves' stuff?

Oh Tortoise actually, I think that is increasingly a motivation for OW, married or single .

Yes, you're right, I did mention the "guilt-free no-strings-attached sex" motivation, but if you've read some of my other posts, I've been saying for a long time that it's a shame that some women cannot admit that these are their reasons, rather than pretending to themselves or others that they are "in love".

However, I did want to also acknowledge that some women fall deeply in love, as do their partners.

Yep, that makes perfect sense, and of course they do.

I also want to say I Do Not Fuck Married Men (Except My Husband), lest the above eulogy be misinterpreted.

There is no 'sisterhood'.

Personally I wouldn't want to settle for anyone's sloppy seconds but some people have very low standards for what they want in a man.

It can also be a way of making sure a man keeps his distance. Women who, for whatever reason, do not want a fulltime, committed relationship, may have found that unattached men who say they want NSA sex have a nasty habit of getting resentful with women who don't fall in love and pursue the man, whereas attached men already have demands on their time and are not likely to insist on setting up home together. Though if this is what a woman wants to do, the safest way is to pick a real fannyrat, the sort of bloke who has an affair a year and whose wife either isn't bothered or is completely deluded in thinking that one fine day he will realise that Wifey really is The ONe and stop shagging around.

You hand a murderer the knife knowing what it will be used for. Does that make you innocent? No

In the same way the man cheating on his wife is the one most in the wrong doesn't mean you need to be part of it and doesn't make you innocent either.

When I was younger (ie, a teenager) - I felt it wasn't my responsibility to make sure the guy was single. That was his responsibility. I played no part in it. Yeah, if he was cheating on his girlfriend he was a dick, and I'd never trust him enough to want an actual relationship with him, but hey, I was having fun

(Never happened if I actually knew the girlfriend though. Which is telling.)

Also - in another situation which happened when I was younger, naivety, low self worth. Believing that our "connection" was so "special" that sharing them was better than not having them at all.

I would never ever get involved with anyone who was in a relationship now, BTW. No matter how unhappy they said their relationship was, or if they said it was over. I'd have to be 100% sure they were single. (And am attached myself now so irrelevant, but just to clarify)

Speaking as someone who has just discovered her husband's affair, the overwhelming responsibility lies with the married participant. Anything else is crap.

Speaking as someone who very very long ago, when I was as green as they come, had short relationships with two married men, I believed all their crap about being separated, about there being no real relationship with their wives. It was only many years afterwards, when I had copped on a bit, that I realised that it was all lies. They will say anything, honestly. I can only feel a little grateful for the fact that my husband never dissed me to his tart. I believe him when he says that, anyway, can't possibly know for sure.

As for a woman who does it in the full knowledge of the damage she will cause, well I'm sorry if I don't have a lot of time for that kind of woman. Personally, I would never ever go with a married man again, whatever he told me about his wife.

Interesting case - friend of my sister's lost her husband to infidelity. 5 years later she and her married lover have lost their jobs over their affair. I can't understand how she could have done that to another woman after what she went through, but possibly (and in my situation this worries me) having been so deeply betrayed screws with your head and makes you just want to look after yourself, to hell with the rest. Know what I mean?

First post for me which probably wont go down well: I was also the other woman for a while, things with my partner were strained and I met a guy at work who was a quite a bit older and also very good at manipulation. I have always had quite low self esteem so I suppose I was drawn in at quite a low vulnerable time. Anyway needless to say it ended very messily, I am still with my partner Thank God and I will never ever involve myself in a situation like that again. Also ended up being in intense counselling for months so I would never recommend it to anyone!

WWIFN, I remember reading about your friend. I realise my post might not have made it seem like it but I have gone through a lot of what your friend went through since it all ended (and it ended in a very drawn out way, as I think he couldn't accept he was never going to do anything definitive even after I had accepted this). And as I have been more and more angry about his weakness I have also felt rather sorry for her and any anger towards her has lessened to the point where I don't consider her relevant - I think that's what helped me to end it in the first place, actually. And though I say I don't like 'sisterhood', I have also felt sympathy with her as one of two women he pissed around for two or three years - that has felt dangerously close to 'sisterhood' actually . I don't know if he is still pissing her around, I stepped away primarily so he could no longer do it to me but also because it was causing such a lot of hurt to so many people on both sides, the ripples spread far in his family and also amongst my family/friends.

I have often felt aggrieved that I was getting on with my life and he chipped away at me and turned my life upside down because his was somehow lacking. But at least he hadn't signed up to a marriage contract with me and then betrayed me several times; and he never seemed able to understand that as he had signed up to a marriage contract then he should either stick to it or get out but not carry on as though he was the poor one stuck.

I don't know whether she still demonises me ... I have realised I can never understand everything about it and so I have moved on as best I can. But I think you can move on and still be concerned about the issues from a personal stance, as your posts show.

In terms of putting myself in the wife's shoes, I agree, and strangely I did initially try to imagine what she was like and what she might feel. In the first few months after he told me how he felt, I said to him several times (after listening to his proclamations of what I meant to him) 'but you committed to her, not to me ...' and I told him to try to sort his marriage out first. Friends knew how hard this was for me as by the time he was saying these things to me I was very fond of him indeed. I would say them and go home and cry. Repeatedly. And he would say these things repeatedly. I couldn't easily move away at work because what we do is incredibly specialised, though I have managed to now.

I especially regret the deception, and I think this must be one of the hardest parts for the spouse. I told him after I caved in, and it did become the affair I said I'd never have, that he should tell her about me as he was deceiving her and I was never comfortable with that (though I realise that doesn't excuse sleeping with her husband). He did tell her about me in the end and she knew he was still seeing me and hadn't let me go for more than half the time he and I were together. I stepped away often but it always started again. I was stupid to let it continue and I let my very strong feelings override anything else, though for much of it she knew she also had a choice.

I do also acknowledge, and always did, that what I heard about his relationship or his wife might not have been the complete truth. I think that we all delude ourselves and believe what we want to sometimes and possibly more so in an affair. I'm ultimately not sure what he was telling to who, another reason I ended it. I do know some of it to be fact, though; and I had so many 'reality checks' from my friends and family concerned for me that I wasn't in a 'romantic bubble' by any stretch and challenged myself and him constantly.
I also occasionally wonder what he has since told her about me and about how it started or progressed ...

I suppose I read a lot on here about OW and was perhaps trying to cover other ground, maybe unnecessarily because as you say some of the stereotypes I raised hadn't been mentioned in this thread. However, in the first post and a few early posts there was just an incredulity that anyone would be the OW unless they were either mad or bad and I just think sometimes it's worth considering actual human stories rather than just discussing the principles. There are patterns to affairs, I agree, but there are also individual twists to many of them. And though I have talked a great deal about my affair to friends/family and written it down, there is a lot in my mind and heart about it all that I can never properly express and no one else but me will ever know. I guess that is the same for my ex and his wife.

Hi Something

I was really interested in your post and noticed the different tone you used in this one, to your last. I'm really pleased you've felt able to empathise with his wife's position and how you felt about the continued deception.

A couple of things occurred while I was reading your post and they may or may not help.

You seem angry with him for pursuing you in the first place and you describe it as "chipping away" at you. It sounds as though he was quite persistent with you and that it was some time before you "caved in". I tend to take an interest in language and it sounds as though you regard yourself as very passive in this; almost without choices.

I think what tends to happen in these situations is that a person only perseveres if they can see a chink and that someone is persuadeable. I often point this out to women who berate the OW for her persistent pursuit of her partner. While I don't doubt the truth of that, it's evident that she didn't give up because she wasn't being given a firm enough deterrent and that any refusals were pretty wishy-washy and designed to make her try again.

And that the proof was in the pudding, if her partner did eventually "cave in". Many men and their betrayed partners in this situation like to put the blame on the OW for repeatedly putting temptation in his way, but I always point out that a firm "no" at the start would have in all probability stopped this in its tracks and if not, threats of harassment would be the death knell.

I understand that you were in a different position in that you didn't have the same considerations as the attached men in the above example and the same deterrents from starting an affair, but I wonder whether it might be more helpful to share the responsibility for not saying no more firmly when this first started, the occasions thereafter and finally, for caving in?

Secondly, this comes from my aforementioned friend's experience and I wondered whether it was applicable to your situation? She was also told by the MM that his wife had found out about the affair (twice, from memory) and on each occasion, his wife had asked him to end the relationship and try again in the marriage. These claims seemed consistent with his behaviour after each "discovery" in that he would for a while, give up physically seeing my friend apart from at work, but continued the relationship via E mails and texts.

This was torture for my friend, but she never felt able to step back and away and let him re-commit to his marriage. She used to say that she couldn't believe the wife was putting up with this and must surely be checking his phone to see if contact really had stopped with her. I remember being very sceptical about his claims and in fact once suggested that perhaps his wife didn't know at all and that it was him trying to cool things off, albeit in a half-hearted way. My friend couldn't countenance this at all, but of course she was never able to corroborate his stories about his wife's "discoveries".

Since the relationship ended (my friend's choice) a few interesting twists in the tale came out via the work grapevine and in the end (perhaps unwisely) my friend confronted him, before she finally left their joint workplace.

It turned out that it was just as I suspected. His wife never had found out and these "cool" periods were his attempts at extricating himself from the affair, but he didn't want to burn his boats completely. Therefore, his wife wasn't making any active choices at all, she had all the time been unaware, as far as he knew. Furthermore, he was honest enough to tell my friend that his marriage hadn't been as bad as he had been making out, but that he had started the affair (my friend had pursued him) because he thought it would be a pretty risk-free enterprise and fun for a while. However, he hadn't expected to develop strong feelings for my friend, but he had. However, at the core of it, they weren't as strong as they were for his wife.

My friend is still angry about this, but in truth some of this is with herself, because she believed a load of uncorroborated stuff throughout the affair and especially about his true feelings for his wife and her "knowledge" about the affair.

Mightn't be the same for you at all - perhaps you did corroborate that his wife knew, in which case yes, she did have choices if he really said that he was torn between the two of you, but even then I wonder did he tell her that it was over between you and that he had severed contact with you and was re-committing to his marriage?

Thanks for your insights. They are brave and interesting.

I think we are conditioned that we as humans are to be monogamous, but we are actually more akin to the Bonobo monkeys. We love getting attention from others and sometimes act on it. I've never cheated on my husband nor do I know for sure, but have had numerous men make passes at me and comment even on the fact they are surprised that I don't have an affair considering his working hours. And really, I don't know if he has on me, as you really can't ever truly know that. I say right now that I wouldn't engage in an affair because as far as I can tell, our relationship is healthy in every way. But I couldn't do get involved with a married man because he is being deceitful to his wife, so what makes you think he is being all that honest with you. But then again, I understand life isn't so cut and dry.

I think we are conditioned that we as humans are to be monogamous, but we are actually more akin to the Bonobo monkeys. We love getting attention from others and sometimes act on it. I've never cheated on my husband nor do I know for sure, but have had numerous men make passes at me and comment even on the fact they are surprised that I don't have an affair considering his working hours. And really, I don't know if he has on me, as you really can't ever truly know that. I say right now that I wouldn't engage in an affair because as far as I can tell, our relationship is healthy in every way. But I couldn't do get involved with a married man because he is being deceitful to his wife, so what makes you think he is being all that honest with you. But then again, I understand life isn't so cut and dry.

I would add though I would be devastated if I found out DH was having an affair, or one night stand.

I do know a woman who went through a period of several years in her marriage where she was bitterly unhappy but never had the nerve to get up and leave. Then she met another man (he was single) and started a relationship with him, and that gave her the motivation to leave her husband. The new relationship didn't last, but she's grateful that it happened. Now both she and the ex have found stable partners and they're happy (I think).

So it's not always a moral disaster.

Im with you OP. I have found out, when I was in early 20's that a boyfriend had a girlfriend already..... dumped him quick sharp.

Also a boss, kept on at me once. Stayed well away.

I know how much pain it causes, so I wouldnt do it.

I love WWIFN's infinite wisdom !

'Women are not responsible for what men do with their dicks.'

Indeed. The responsibility lies with the person who made the commitment imo. In any case it's not a gender thing.