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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is it okay to break up a family ?

35 replies

ostracized · 27/02/2011 09:22

Sorry to start another thread so soon after my last one but have been thinking of this issue as well and would appreciate people's thoughts.
Basically I think my relationship with dh has completely broken down, there is no physical affection between us, much conversation or much kindness.
Are these enough reasons to consider separation? We have three children who are 4, 6 and 9 and divorce would be very hard on many different levels I think and I feel sick that I am even fantasizing about it.
BUT are dh and I supposed to have a non-existent relationship for the next 20 odd years for the sake of keeping the family together?
In addition to this what about sex ?????? The last time dh and I slept together was at the end of december last year and unless our relationship is radically re-evaluated I don't think this will happen again. Feel sad about living a sexless life at 42 :(.

OP posts:
ostracized · 27/02/2011 09:42

Plus don't want to sleep with him if he never shows me any affection, kindness or interest!

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 27/02/2011 09:55

What are you both teaching these children about relationships here if you were to stay within such a marriage?. You're both living a lie now and are now actually stopping yourselves from meeting someone new in the longer term.

If you stayed with him for the "sake of the children" they won't actually thank you as adults for doing so - they will call you daft. They should not be the sole reason you stay together, its absolutely unfair as well to give them that particular responsibility. They will come to wonder why on earth you never separated years earlier.

Day to day now they pick up on all the unspoken tensions and also see and hear far more than the two of you realise. You both cannot fully hide your problems from them.

eden263 · 27/02/2011 09:58

It's better to have 2 happy parents who live apart than 2 miserable and bitter ones who live together.

Yes, divorce is hard, but then so is having to grow up in a house with a constant atmosphere.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 27/02/2011 10:01

Some couples have lost hope that their relationship with each other is salvageable. However, loving their children as they do, and fearing the impact of divorce on their children, they question the wisdom of parting while the children are still at home.

As their unhappiness deepens, these parents wonder not only about the impact of divorce, but also about the effects of modeling a poor intimate relationship for their youngsters.

Neither option seems to be ideal for children. Children thrive in happy families that afford them stability, structure, care and guidance by two loving parents. In the absence of this formula, research has found that the crucial factor impacting children, both within intact families and after divorce, is the level and nature of parental conflict.

High conflict parents create fear, insecurity, stress, depression and lower levels of functioning of their children. Marital violence is also associated with greater incidence of child abuse, which jeopardizes children?s healthy development, educational, social, and emotional adjustment and future success in their own marriage and parenthood.

Research has also shown that when parents were able to reduce their conflict and learn to negotiate and compromise, children?s levels of insecurity fear and distress diminished.

There are couples who have lost their love connection with each other, yet they rarely fight and their level of blatant conflict is low. Their children may not see much joy, laughter and easy affection, but are also spared witnessing ongoing conflict and are often unaware of the depth of unhappiness their parents experience. These couples may be even more conflicted about choosing to part in view of their seemingly satisfactory relationship.

Children are not particularly interested in their parents? satisfaction and happiness with each other, as long as it does not threaten the youngsters? stability. Children are primarily concerned with their own need fulfillment, and are likely to be content if their parents are attentive to them.

Youngsters also do not have a gauge by which to judge the relative soundness of their parents? marriage, since this is the only role model they know. If parents have a non-intimate, yet civil relationship, the children may perceive them as having a happy union, and may not realize the reality until they mature.

In low-conflict unions, children may miss learning about effective problem solving styles, negotiation, compromise, free expression of affection, humor, laughter and ease of connection, but are not likely to feel loss, rejection, abandonment, and belonging conflicts they may suffer in the event of divorce.

Parents who are able to live respectfully with each other even after their love connection has been lost, may be encouraged to ?stretch? further and learn to communicate better, be more friendly and model for their children respect, kindness and cooperation, even in the absence of deep intimacy.

Mates who are filled with anger, resentments, hate, contempt, criticism and ill will toward each other, may be deluding themselves that these emotions can be masked from the children. These powerful negative energies are evident to youngsters, who may hold themselves responsible for them. ?Mom is always mad at me, I don?t know why?? Or, ?Dad comes home and hits the computer and talks to none of us, he must hate us.?

Sometimes, children undertake the task of protecting one parent from the other. ?Dad, why are you so mean to Mom all the time?? Or, ?Mom, stop saying bad things about Dad, he is not that bad.? When youngsters find it necessary to parent their parents, they are feeling the stress and may be more deeply troubled by their parents? dysfunctional relationship than meets the eye.

The question unhappy partners need to ask themselves is not: ?Should we stay together for the sake of the children?? but ?Should we change our ways for the sake of the children?? The answer to the latter question is a resounding yes.

PorcelinaOfTheVastOceans · 27/02/2011 10:04

i think attila has pretty much covered it.

from personal experience, even though i don't see my biological father anymore, it was a much happier life having separated parents who were happy, than parents living together who were miserable and resentful and creating a bad atmosphere for everyone.

ostracized · 27/02/2011 11:16

Thanks everybody. Thanks also for your very informative post attila - as if all my thoughts had been crystallized into something far more articulate and explanatory than I could have managed!
So basically, whether we get divorced or not, the kids are "done for" in terms of their future personal relationships. I know you weren't saying this exactly, more that the quality of relationship between parents whether divorced or not, is what affects the children. However I do worry that, as you say, if we stay together they will never learn what a loving intimiate relationship between two adults is like, and that if we get divorced, they themselves are more likely to get divorced when older. Also about all the unknowns that go with divorce.
The thing is, dh is so difficult to talk to that I cannot imagine having a conversation where we actively decide to stay together and be civil to each other. If we were able to have such conversations we would probably be able to get on a lot better than we do now.
Also, even though I know that if we were to separate I might never meet anybody else, part of me would find it VERY hard to stay with dh on a civil but unloving basis, knowing that there might be someone out there with whom I could get on really well. My emotional life is already completely and utterly dead and I don't know if I could accept this for the rest of my life without feeling endlessly sad about it :(. I feel as if I've got a whole load of living to do but that I cannot do it here in this tense, non-accepting atmosphere.

OP posts:
ostracized · 27/02/2011 11:18

Also have just tried to ask dh if he is ill (he is sniffing away and taking medicine) and he could barely answer me.... monosyllabic, not looking at me, totally angry sounding.... I don't know how long I can carry on like this. If I try to talk to him about anything he lays all the blame at my feet and becomes angry - so I never talk to him about anything important basically :(.

OP posts:
PorcelinaOfTheVastOceans · 27/02/2011 11:24

could you try relationship counseling OP? it doesn't necessarily have to end in divorce. and you sound like you could do with the support?

and a hug, very un-MN i know, but Smile

ostracized · 27/02/2011 11:28

Thanks for the hug! Am going to phone relate tomorrow to organise one to one counselling. Feel too intimidate to broach subject with dh who in the past has been contemptuous of the idea of counselling. I think if dh could get rid of all his work / money problems and move to a warm country then he would be a far happier and easier person but if pigs could fly!!!!!

OP posts:
PorcelinaOfTheVastOceans · 27/02/2011 11:38

oh dear Sad well i don't see why he wouldn't consider counseling. what's the worst that could happen, if there is already such a bad home atmosphere? maybe you could poke him into getting an appointment with CAB, they might be able to offer him some advice with the money problems, relieve some of the stress and he'll be easier to talk to.

i know it's hard, i am a complete confrontation avoider myself, but doing nothing in this instant is only going to make yourself feel more and more miserable, and unable to do anything.

gettingeasier · 27/02/2011 11:54

My life was a bit like yours ostracised but I didnt have the nerve to do anything and I still loved my h.

Fortunately he had the ow backbone to leave.

From day one overall I have been happier and feel alive again yes more downs but many many more ups and now just over a year later am a different person.

We both worked hard to make sure our dc of 10 and 13 (when he left)didnt suffer more than necessary and I think as Attila said they are probably happier too in our happy peaceful home. I was petrified their worlds would fall apart but divorce doesnt need to be the nightmare people often assume.

CheerfulMe · 27/02/2011 12:09

"I think if dh could get rid of all his work / money problems and move to a warm country then he would be a far happier and easier person"

Ohh, I used to think this about my XP. Turned out he was just an abusive arse, and would have been one as a millionaire in the Caribbean. So I left him - best thing I ever did.

I've always thought two happy parents apart were better than two snappy miserable ones together. Unfortunately, many couples don't get on much better after they split, which still affects the kids to some degree. But for many the relief of being completely free of the pretense that things were going to work with the other person is enough to transform their relationship for the better, and they often co-parent much better apart than they did together.

meditrina · 27/02/2011 12:40

Ostracized: your situation sounds so hard. I think going for counselling is a really good step for you. Attila is right in her last bit - trying everything to save the family is important. You can still see, even with flying pigs, a positive future. Counselling just might help find another route to an acceptable family life. Even if it don't, you will feel much better about your future choices if you know you tried and exhausted all avenues before making irrevocable decisions. Set yourself a time limit if you don't want to feel endlessly stuck. And as you are not describing an abusive situation, you do have time to plan your options.

I wish you well through this. And never think you've already wrecked your children's emotional futures: they can still pick up good messages about much you valued a family unit, how hard you worked to make it work, and then either the obvious rewards of a reconciliation, or if not that, a sense of how you valued their well-being enough that you made every effort to stay civilised and minimise the impact.

Anais53 · 27/02/2011 12:41

OP, I can echo what gettingeasier said. Down to being grateful to ex-H for having the guts to leave.

I'm 4 years on and never been more content, not least because 11 year old DD (7 when we split) is so well-adjusted and happy. As for what she's learning about relationships, she has some excellent role models. Firstly her father who has a lovely new partner who treats DD as if she were her own :) and then me, who has managed to rebuild her life as a single person.
I've dated on and off and enjoy it but would only introduce someone into DD's life if I felt it was going to last.

There is nothing so diminishing as being in a relationship the like of which you describe. I would
urge you to consider separating and know that it can be done in a way that benefits all concerned.

Anais53 · 27/02/2011 12:41

ps tried Relate counselling too. It was the kiss of death Hmm

Alfreda · 27/02/2011 14:54

Why? I'm interested because although not as bad, my relationship is going the way of ostracized's, and I too have been thinking of the trade-off between my dc's happiness and my own, and what it might mean for their future if I split with their father. The difference in our case is that he will behave very, very badly if we split, as his own parents divorced when he and his sister were the age our kids are now, and he feels very damaged by that. And alcohol is an issue, about which he is in denial as he does not consider himself to be his (alcoholic) father's son. In this respect, sadly I suspect he is.

Alfreda · 27/02/2011 15:00

Sorry. Meant to press preview, not post....
...I still see the ideal solution as improving the relationship if possible, and think that this is possible for us. Have tried email counselling with Relate on my own as he refused to discuss things 4 months ago, didn't find it much help. Basically I got a lot of "poor you" and links to info on abusive relationships when I wanted strategies and useful stuff. I didn't find soppy sympathy and labelling my husband an abuser helpful.

So...sorry this went on longer than intended.....why is Relate the kiss of death?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 27/02/2011 16:03

ostracized

Should we change our ways for the sake of the children - well yes but I actually think your H is quite happy as he is and does not want to change. He being contemptuous to the idea of counselling as well is also a bad sign for you. I would suggest you attend Relate on your own.

Even if your H did not have any monetary problems and lived abroad he would still likely act the same as he does not; the problems would only move with you all.

I do not actually think the children would be done for regarding their future personal relationships; it is how both adults behave towards each other post split and divorce that matters here.

Better to be apart and happier in my view than to be together and miserable. You cannot go on as you are in what is basically to an outsider a loveless marriage.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 27/02/2011 16:05

Alfreda

Bringing the children up with an alcoholic dad for a father will do them no favours at all. Your H is at the very least abusing alcohol and by turn yourselves. Alcoholism is a family disease; the whole family need treatment.

everythingchangeseverything · 27/02/2011 16:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Alfreda · 27/02/2011 17:13

I agree with you up to a point Attila. Have been off thinking about this as dd was swimming. Husband gets up, does kids breakfast, takes them to school, cleans house, takes them to sports, is always there on the touchline for ds at football, gives many hugs and much encouragement to them. He drinks much more than he should (50-80 units/week) but I am not sure they have ever seen him out of control. The problem is being a tad over-controlling with the kids, which is probably not alcohol related, irascibility and moods which is, and is an issue maybe three or four times a year.
So sure, it needs some action on my part, but I am probably not going to be taking the nuclear option: undoubtedly the kids would be damaged more by my leaving, especially as at least, or more than half the time they would stay with him: he works from home and I work long hours away from home. My work supports the family.

I agree that bringing kids up with an alcohol-dependent parent may not be good for them. However in splitting up a marriage you do not remove the alcohol user from the equation, they have rights! And the kids love their Dad.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 27/02/2011 18:31

Children will love any parent, even an alcoholic one. It will damage them though and that will only become apparant in adulthood. Alcoholism as well can be learnt behaviour, what are they learning from the two of you about relaitonships here?.

Its too easy to fall into the enabler trap and you need help and support too.

There are also elements of codependency within such relationships and I would suggest you read "Codependent No More" written by Melodie Beattie.

You're carrying this family financially, presumably as he is a househusband he is not working at present. You write he works from home, what does he do and how much time is he devoting to that?. How much of that time is he spending drinking?. You are not there of a day so you do not really know his full day. He is not supporting the family, okay so he cleans house. Who buys the alcohol?.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

Also you would not have to leave, he should be the one to leave the familial home.

If he is drinking between 50-80 units a week they are seeing the after affects of his drinking; they see the empties for starters along with your reaction and total antipathy towards him.

Your choice re him at the end of the day though - your children have no say. You cannot protect them fully from the realities of his alcoholism. Sorry to write that but you cannot.

The 3cs re alcoholism:-
You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

At the very least speak to Al-anon because they will help you (their pamphlets are very helpful) and not judge what you decide to do longer term.

Alfreda · 27/02/2011 18:44

I know exactly what is in the house, empties have never been hidden, and he doesn't drink during the day.

I'm intrigued as to why you think he should be made to leave the family home if we split. He is not a criminal, and he is the main carer for the children. If the genders were reversed in this problem would you advise a man to force his low-earning wife to leave?

Most of the time I suppose I do get a lot out of the relationship: we've just had a bad weekend.

But really, thanks for your advice: I do value it, and I do think I need to work harder at trying to engender change. I'll have a look at the reading matter. This isn't an empty throwaway line, I really will.

ostracized · 27/02/2011 21:53

Thanks for more messages everyone and I hope you and your husband manage to bring about the changes that you desire Alfreda. My dh's dad was an alcoholic and quite a destructive one (I gather) who eventually left the family home when my dh was about 15. I often wonder what impact his behaviour has had on my dh and his brothers and sisters - who dare I say it are more or less all "difficult" in similar ways: sulky, uncompromising, bad-tempered, domineering...... Of course this may have nothing to do with their dad's alcoholism as such and might be genetic but I do know that their dad was not very nice. Not relating any of these personaly traits to your dh Alfreda, but how alcoholism impacts future generations is quite interesting I think.
With regards to my situation, I am definitely definitely going to organise the one to one counselling. How I put up with dh's constant more or less ignoring me and cold shoulder in the meantime is what I don't know as it upsets me, distracts me and means that I am constantly feeling sad about this rather than getting on with my life. The thought of divorce frightens me on so many levels, things like:

  • dh will drive on the motorway to see his family with he kids and I wouldn't be there to quieten them down if being too rowdy in the back and he might have an accident
  • they might be ill while with him and I wouldn't be there to look after them
  • he might take them swimming and I wouldn't be there to help look after them as dd2 cannot swim yet and dd1 only half swims
  • I might get together with someone whom I mistakenly think is nice but who might be nasty to them
  • dh might be really nasty to me and much more excluding than he is already
  • dh's family might be nasty to me
  • I will be automatically excluded from part of their life and that feels very strange
  • dh might meet someone else who my kids decide they prefer to me

then there are all the usual worries:

  • how unhappy and shocked the kids might be
  • the kids having to divide their lives and affections between two homes, and two now obviously disliking each other, people
  • where will dh and I both live (he would be very resentful of having to leave this house which belongs to him but I think we would have to sell it and share the proceeds, he would find this very very difficult I think as his first wife got his house when they divorced (he was left with a much smaller, not so dear to him, business property)
  • would we be able to stay in this area (hope so as kids settled at school and I have friends around here and I volunteer at the school which is kind of my life at the moment)
  • would I have enough money?
  • the social "stigma"

etc.... etc.... etc..... etc.....

So I was lying in bed next to dds as they feel asleep just now feeling sick at the prospect of even considering a separation.

There definitely needs to be a massive change of some kind though, if only in my thinking and way of being as life is so so short and I am wasting so much of it obsessing about all these things :(

OP posts:
Alfreda · 27/02/2011 23:56

Sorry to have hijacked your thread ostracized. I hope that you can find some way to change things. I think that most of your worries would be unfounded, to be honest. How would your kids find your dh's one day maybe new partner ever better than their own mother? Come on! I guess that self-esteem drops to a deep low when things are this bad at home, so all of these fears loom a lot larger than they need to be.

I wish you all the very best.

(I won't hijack any more after this, except to say I've gone and joined up with the bottled up people. Definitely a more attractive approach for me than Al-anon.)