Is this normal? Row with parents/family.

[NinkyNonker]

I ask because dh is shocked but to me it seems normal.

A week or so ago my sister came to stay, we get on ok but dh isn't her greatest fan. Our parents treat us very differently and she is often very rude to me and I just take it as would be to blame if I didn't.

Anyway, she lied about something and he called her on it. Very calmly (he is very laid back) and tried to talk to her about it. I was upstairs putting.g baby to bed. She flipped and stormed off. I tried to talk to her, she tells me it'll take a long time to get over, I didn't point out that she has been far ruder to me in the past.

As expected, my father phones me the next day to let me know what he thinks of me. (I'm 30, SIS is 27, dh is 37.) Apparently my sister is the good one, I've always been trouble, have to sell the flat he helped me buy 5 yrs ago so he can give it to sis instead as she never expects help, I'm ungrateful etc etc. Dh is deceitful, he had hoped he would have learned some manners, he's always had doubts about him etc.

For once I stand up for myself and tell father that he must be living in cloud cuckoo land if he truly thinks that of me and my sister, he has it all backwards. Tell him I won't have him speak about my lovely husband like that. This isn't popular, he goes on to tell me I have lots of undesirable personality traits that the family have had to 'come to terms with'. All because my adult husband and my adult sister had a falling out. The conversation ended on a polite note. I email that eve regarding arrangements to sell flat.

The next day a hideous email appears from father going back over the nasty stuff he said before. Shocked, I reply again stating my position. Pointing out we were adults and didn't need him trying play patriarch. (Worded better!) Pointed out I had offered to sell flat numerous times and they always said no so to now tell me I was selfish to have it when sis doesn't have one (she has been a student for over 8 yrs to put off finding a job and is only in country a few months a yr.)

Later on, he phones me, nice as pie. Mother tells me this is his version of an apology, I know this as he has always been like this, worse in fact. But I am cross, dh is furious. I tell them a real apology is due, to both of us, and that whether or not someone gets on with my sister is not the measure of their personality. It is implied that we are being precious to be angry. A grudging apology ensues. Peace reigns. As per usual I now have to tiptoe around playing the jolly one to keep everyone happy, but deep down think this can't be right.

So, my question is this (apologies for length of post)...is it normal for families to do this to each other? Or rather to one member of a family? I feel like my sister is the one the family revolves around, my father is borderline abusive in his attitude and my mother is lovely but very passive aggressive, emotionally blackmailing. I feel totally under pressure the whole time when I want to build a life with my husband and daughter.

For info, I have much more I could post (starting cbt to try to deal with anxiety and other issues) but really need an outside perspective. Am I over reacting to find this attack on one child hard to deal with?

Opinions gratefully received!

I was going to say tell them all to fuck off too!

I 2nd Fannyfoghorn!

On a practical note, I would re mortgage that flat and take out the equity you need to pay your dad back the deposit plus interest so that would be an end to that. I would never refer to it or enter into conversations about it again.
It is yours then without any qualification.

x posts there.

Again I'm agreeing with fannyfoghorn.

Sorry OP but haven't got the Ooomph to post my crossness after posting on the 'Gaslight' thread on here!

This family guff fair knackers me out!

Regarding the flat - what was the arrangement you made with your dad when he have you the deposit? Was it a loan or a gift, and does he expect some of the profit from the flat back or just the initial deposit?

Please don't give the flat to your sister or sell it for a loss/no profit. Why should she/your parenst benefit from something you've been paying for? You wouldn't give her a savings account you'd been paying into for years.

What was the original arrangement with your dad?

Do NOT give up or sell the flat to placate your family. What was the original agreement WRT the money your father contributed - was it a loan or a gift, or was the understand that he would get a share of the profit when the flat was sold? If the flat was bought during the property boom, and you had agreed to pay your father a percentage of the profits, then what you could do is have it valued now and work out what might be a reasonable sum to pay him and perhaps get a loan to pay that. But deal with the matter formally and legally and refuse to enter into any discussions about it. BTW if the money was given to you as a gift there is nothing he can legally do about it and would look a tit if he tried.

"My sister is a nice person but with very low confidence, but is used to having her own way"

And that is an understatement!!. Your parents conditioned you well didn't they?. Time now to get angry with all of them, they do not deserve you and your own family unit now. I would cut them all off without a backward glance but that is easier said than done. If you did decide to do that I would not criticise such a decision.

Your parents have created the monster that is your sister; they are responsible here.
Your sister is the golden child within your dysfunctional birth family unit.

This is all about power and control ultimately, not necessarily the money. That's a side issue.

They will also start on your child given the chance and or opportunity and could use your child to get back at you and DH. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents.

FOG - fear, obligation and guilt are all feelings felt by children who were raised by toxic parents and you are in the FOG. Any guilt you have for this lot is totally misplaced; they certainly don't feel any guilt over the way you have been treated to date. They don't think they've done anything wrong.

Sounds very familiar to me I'm afraid. My Db is the Golden Child, nobobdy can challenge my mum etc.

Thanks to MN I discovered my mother almost certainly has Narcissistic Personanlity Disorder. I finally know it's her, not me. It doesn't change anything but it does make me feel better. And I know now what motivates her.

Narcissstic Mothers

I did a whole lot of research on the internet and a lot of my childhood and adult life made sense.

Hope that helps.

I know you're all right, think I need to be tougher. I don't think we could raise the money without selling to be honest, I'm off work with DD and DH is in the middle of retraining, I doubt any bank would lend it to us. I don't think there is a huge amount of equity in it, it has been on interest only repayments since being rented out/our income lowered (only temporarily lowered, once his training is over it will be low for a year or so maybe and then start going up).

Part of me just doesn't care, even though in principle it is wrong if you see what I mean. I just want it over/done. Now that all is sweet again they keep saying they will give me some more money when it is sorted, and if they sell the house there will be a large sum etc, but I have told them we don't want it. (They are fairly typical baby boomers, the house they are in is mortgage free, worth around £750K but only bought for £250K in 2000.) DH wouldn't accept it anyway, especially now.

I think I'm just used to this sort of thing being the norm.

NN

Do read the book I wrote of earlier. It will help you.

Remortgaging can cost a fortune and is potentially not going to be possible if the property is in negative equity.It's pretty difficult to get a mortgage these days.

Just from a legal perspective: unless you father's name is on the title for the flat or there was some deed of trust drawn up in his favour, he has no legal right either in the flat or in the proceeds. If the money was given to you originally as an unconditional gift, then he has no legal right to ask for it back. He can't make the gift conditional now.

He is blackmailing you emotionally and trying to control you. Your sister can't be golden and all right unless you are there to hold up as the scapegoat/wrong one. Put some distance between you and your family, even if just for a little while to allow you to seek some counselling/set some boundaries with these people.

Oh, and it was a gift I think. There was never any talk of it being otherwise, sister would get the same when the time came. They have recently had to shell out a large amount of cash for a legal battle my dad got into over their yacht, which is why they don't have the same amount available at the moment to give to my sister now she is wanting somewhere.

It makes a little profit after mortgage, that I keep in a seperate account to cover costs etc. I have offered numerous times to sell it/split monthly profit etc with them as a gesture especially as I no longer live in it. They always refused, saying it was mine totally. This now appears to have changed. Dad has changed his tune slightly and selling it as them taking me up on my offer and phrasing it as if the whole 'nasty' conversation has never taken place.

I've tried to keep them at a distance since (a couple of weeks ago) and just try to work through it in my head. I haven't contacted them since, but they have called and we were civil. My mother wasn't aware of what dad said to me and was pretty shocked. My sister has been to see me and DD, and kept hinting about how upset she was at DH, it would take her a while to get over it and 'forgive him', that I should back her up as I'm her sister etc. I told her to stop milking it and that I think she is over-blowing things. Wasn't popular.

I think I need to work on ridding myself of the underlying anxiety and guilt I feel towards/about them so that i can distance myself without feeling hideous about it.

Thanks Attila, I'll look into it.

If that's the case (re the flat) please don;t feel obliged to do anything with it. If your dad ever brings up the subject again then just tell him the flat is yours and you are not selling it. End of. If you find yourself wavering remind yourself that it's a great investment for your children in the future.

I dont think you should be asking whether is it normal but is it healthy? which is no

many families dynamics are seen as normal but are infact unhealthy and have that impact on his kids.

You dads behaviour is shameful

NN,

Re your comment:-
"I think I need to work on ridding myself of the underlying anxiety and guilt I feel towards/about them so that i can distance myself without feeling hideous about it".

This is why I have suggested counselling for your own self re your mad as cut snakes birth family. BACP have a list of counsellors and won't charge a packet.

Your above comment is also why I mention FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. Many adults who were raised by toxic parents feel all of those as adults.

(Both my ILs are toxic and BIL is the favoured one. He seems very similar in nature to your sister and he is a narcissist).

Sounds horribly familiar.

Take comfort in knowing that the Scapegoat can escape much more easily than the golden children. I know, I was a scapegoat. I have been NC for over a year.

My "mother" pulled a similar stunt over my great grandmother's wedding ring, which was given to me as a gift at my first wedding. Now she wants it back.

She can fuck off. It was a gift. End of. I will be passing it on to my dd.

I suggest you do something similar.

It always helped me to know that there are lot's of us in this hideous situation. I didn't realise until I found this place. You are not alone.

If my sister had unleashed my parents' wrath on me like that I would not want her to come over. Why not gain yourself a bit more space by asking her to stay away for a bit? It seems to me she gets her parents 'onto' you to get her own way or punish you, then wheedles her way back in. Win win for her, lose lose for you. And hinting she will take a while to forgive your DH is a bit much. After how she has behaved with him, is he content to have her continue to visit?

It is so easy for all of us to tell you what to do, but I'd suggest writing to say the flat money was a gift and you will not be paying it back or selling/handing over the flat. It sounds as though you could end up losing money on a sale or on a repayment agreement when you and your immediate family can least afford it. Your parents will find it much easier to raise a mortgage on their house to help your sister, if she absolutely must have a flat now.

I entirely agree with Eldritch. Your sister sounds like a manipulative so-and-so who likes to engineer situations so that she can go running off to your parents and make you look bad for her own advantage. You certainly don't owe her a flat - if your parents made a promise to her that they have now reneged on, that's between her and them. You need to put your own family first.

Do not sell the flat! Why should you be forced to lose something just because your spoiled brat of a sister hasn't got it? Your father is being petty because of your sister's manipulation, let him rant and rave and call you petty but to any rational person he is the petty one.

The way the world is just now, having some "spare" property is a valuable investment, the rental income must be nice to have each month and it'll be a great investment for your DD in the future. Do not let your parents and sister spoil that. Concentrate on your DH and DD and let them fester.

So your parents have cocked up and lost the money that was intended for your sister?

I don't see how that has to become your problem. How convenient that a big row has been manufactured and as a result you're being made to feel responsible for securing her future and relieving them of honouring a promise.

You really must not cave on this matter - the nastiness and manipulation pale into insignificance against robbing your children of their security.