Time without kids - relationship going wrong - worried.

[NorthernerAtHeart]

Hi

I'm not really sure where to start - have posted a couple of times previously about parts of this.

We are going away for a day/night (booked by me) at the weekend to give us chance to talk / have some time without the kids (3, aged 6 and under, no help near by so always have the kids with us), but I'm really nervous about it.

Things came crashing down in Nov. Probably sounds trivial. Found DH had not given up smoking (dope) as he had promised me a year before. Infact hadn't stopped for any period of time. This was about the 5th time he had promised me this (over 6 years), and I had felt he meant it this time and kind of felt it meant that he was serious about the relationship also.

As normally happens with any kind of issues, he transferred all blame on to me. Refused to discuss it all for over 24 hours. Then told me if I didn't like it, then it was over. Did I really want to destroy our marriage over something so trivial etc etc.
Then he got drunk, and started questionning when I first knew I was pregnant with DC1 in relation to when I told him (immediately) and told me that he had planned to finish with me a few days after that. Also told me how rubbish i was at juggling things (3 kids, teacher 2 days a week, husband at work 7.30-7.30 every day, no family anywhere near).....and that the solution was either for him to move back to where he comes from (southern hemisphere) or for him to commit suicide.

We have been together for 8 years, DC1 born after about 16 months, so early on.
He was hopeless (infact horrible) during the pregnancy, and useless when DS was small .

There are many examples of when he was been unsupportive, unloving etc etc.
There are good times too, but I have always had a feeling of insecurity in the relationship. A feeling that he is only here for the kids, and that he would leave when they leave home. He says this is not true.
Do other people have husbands who would genuinely do anything for them, and feel like they could get through anything?

He says why did I say yes to marrying him? Because I love him, and always thought things would only get better.

On a selfish/indulgent level (for me) - he has never organised anything romantic (although did come home with flowers yesterdaY) - no weekends away, no theatre, no holidays for the family (although moans about the plans I come up with within our budget and to our joint choice of location), although occasionally says we should go out for dinner.

Two years ago we had a lousy holiday when he hardly spoke to me for half of it. On our return he continued not to talk for about 4 days. When I asked him why, he said he didn't think we had anything in common and shoudln't be together. He then changed his mind and we talked through it, including agreeing we should make more time for each other and time away from the kids. He then booked himself a weekend away in Amsterdam. Sounds silly, but I was so suprised that he wanted to do that rather than something for both of us that I agreed to it.

I am really finding it hard to pin down what I love about him at the moment, or if really I am still in love with him. He is good looking (!) but has a look of stone whenever we talk about anything difficult. If I am upset, he can ignore me for hours and hours.

Since Nov, I have kind of been wanting a sign that we should stay together. I don't know what that would actually be though. He has been trying (letting me have a lie in, breakfast in bed, has had the kids for a couple of days so i could have a girly day out with friends - first time in years).

He is the main breadwinner, but I have worked out that I could afford to keep paying the mortgage (if the bank would let me keep it - how does that work?) when tax credits, child benefit and maintenance have been included.

Any sound advice would be much appreciated!!!!
I have phoned relate, but they have a minimum of a 10 week waiting list at the moment.

Sorry that is soooooo long.
Ah, the benefits of hindsight.
I should have left when he was being an arse when I was first pregnant.
Then again when he suggested it was over!! All I would have need to do was say, ok yes. Now it is down to me to actively decide :(

Where are you going for this 'chance to talk'?
If it's not to talk together with a relationship councellor there then cancel and rebook it WITH a relationship councellor.

He's a knob for not leaving, TBH. He has repeatedly made sure you know that he is only with you on sufferance, therefore keeping you miserably insecure - I bet any time you disagree with him or ask him to get his own dinner he starts the wistful gaze into the distance not-sure-I want-to-be-with-you stuff to get you scurrying around, desperate to placate him.
It's not a crime to want out of a relationship, but a person who wants out should leave as kindly and fairly as possible, not torture the other partner with unfulfilled threats to go and impossible conditions to live up to.
Unless you have threatened to harm yourself/never let him see DC again/make his life hell if he goes, he is being a complete shit.

Northerner, I'm so sorry you're in this situation. To be frank, it sounds as if you are unappreciated and unsupported by your DH. For me, this would be an untenable situation and if there were no indications that this could change then I would exit the marriage.

In terms of wanting a sign that you should stay together - I think you have to be able to answer the question you pose as to being able to pin down what you love about him. There needs to be a positive answer to this.

northerneratheart you said you'd tried phoning Relate but they had a long waiting list. It sounds as though you could do with talking to them yourself to get your own thoughts in order - could you try and get an individual phone counselling session? I had one and it was hugely helpful to have the whole hour to explain my problem, have someone focus on that entirely and then get some advice. They gave me an appointment for 2 days after I phoned them.

Thanks everyone.

Gillybean2 - going walking for the day but staying over in a hotel - away from any outside influences (other than the elements!)for most of it.

Loves2cycle - a good idea. Where do you start though? I feel like such a moaning child - he does this, and he does that.....
I will try and call them later on the off chance they have an hour tomorrow afternoon (kids asleep or at preschool).

StuffingGoldBrass - I don't do the trying to placate him thing really, other than trying to jolly things along a bit to ease an atmosphere (make a cuppa to break the ice maybe). The dinner thing made me laugh though (rang true!). I've always cooked dinner in the week - but often that is in the form of huge batches etc that are then frozen. He went through a phase of moaning that he wanted 'proper' food, not microwave rubbish (grrr - homecooked, made from scratch...) so I just stopped and ate with the kids.

Rycie - he says it will change and I should give him a chance, but how many times can we go through this and still believe it will change? (not a question to you as such, more to him..)

Thing is going away isn't going to make very much difference. The rality of your life is that you do not have that alone time and it will be a false situation with false expectations. WHat are you hoping the time away will achieve? And what will you do if it doesn't achieve that or he makes promises again which he doesn't keep...

It sounds to me that your have been downtrodden and your self esteem eroded so much that you can't see what is plainly obvious (although you later say you should have left a long time ago).

So you need to find permanent fixes (together) or you need to find the courage to move on.

Ring relate, speak to someone if you can and try and get an appointment with them as quickly as you can.

I wouldn't worry northerner about sounding like a moaning child - you won't at all. You will sound like someone concerned about your relationship, and that's what they're there for.

When I had my first hour long rant (which is what I worried it was) and half way through said 'oh sorry, this is all so trivial sounding', the Relate counsellor interrupted me to say, 'you're describing your feelings, they're not trivial at all, but very important, carry on...' That kind of brought me up short, as she was right and it validated it for me.

If you can manage to get an appointment before you go away for weekend, it may really help with your weekend discussions.

Oh and BTW, you dismissed the 'not giving up smoking dope' as trivial in your OP. It is not trivial, if it is important to you. He lied to you, what can be more important for respect between partners than for them to tell the truth to each other? I would be very upset if that were me.

Loves2cycle - you have me in tears!!!

You are so right. It's not trivial. I do try to explain this to him when he dismises (can't spell!) my views - how can it be rubbish if it's how I'm feeling? To have someone else point that out to me is quite empowering. Thank you so much.

Gillybean2 - you are of course right. I booked it 5 or 6 weeks ago, and this weekend is the first weekend we could do (need grandparents to have the kids). It is a false set up, although the last week or so he has suggested we move closer to those grandparents (shame it's taken him this long to think it's a good idea. I don't believe he is completely serious, so have taken this mostly with a pinch of salt).

I'm not sure I feel downtrodden and with no self-esteem? People (friends, colleagues) see me as someone who can manage anything! Frequently being told they don't know how I do it all etc etc. I do feel trapped to a degree though, although investigating the financial implications has helped that a lot (I CAN afford to do this, albeit with support from the state!)
My confidence is a bit low I guess, but if I can how others see me and give myself a kick up the backside I know I can do it. Blimey, I'm pretty much bringing up 3 bright, articulate, full-of-life kids on my own already!

well I certainly didn't mean to have you in tears northerner but I know that feeling very well myself. When the person that is supposed to love you and care for you, continually dismisses your views as being rubbish and worthless, then a complete stranger tells you what you know inside yourself - that of course, those views are valid. It is empowering.

I had it from MN but didn't quite hear/believe it, then the Relate counsellor saying it, made me really allow myself to know it was true. Now I have no doubt that my views are valid.

However, on a less positive note - I am starting to wonder about these sort of people that can dismiss your views so easily and convincingly for years - that if you see positive changes in them, maybe those changes are forced, not natural, so when they let their guard down, the old behaviours are still there. The sense of entitlement, the view that they are actually the only ones in the world that really matters. Oh dear, not what you want to hear, but after tackling this for nearly a year through counselling and feeling all is going great as there has been massive change, I occasionally see 'slippage' in my DH when he's stressed with work or relaxed through alcohol, and that slippage in manner/behaviour makes me wonder if it's all just beneath the surface and I'm wasting my time. For another thread, another day, just beware though northener

It actually doesn't matter what the issue is IMO - it is the not being listened to and not having your views taken account of by the other person that is crucial. And you sound like you have put up with a lot of that for many years.

Could you use the weekend to chat about plans for moving nearer to where you want to be? That could be a practical thing to focus on which would help you if you do decide to split up.

And you are obviously doing fantastically to keep all your balls up in the air - 3 kids,working part-time etc.

BTW - the suicide threat, was that a genuine threat that came out of a deep depression or was that an emotional blackmail type thing? Sounds pretty manipulative.

Loves2cycle - it was a lovely thing to hear.

Your less positive note - it's what I want to hear, to be honest. Along with having a crystal ball to show how the future will be!
He tells me the 'i'll change, blah di blah' and thinks I'm nuts for not believing him. Thinks that it is wrong to assume how the future will be on account of the past.

You are right about behaviours slipping in - silly things - at the bottom of a bottle of wine the other evening: discussing how to get back from the station after a days shopping - me: i'll get a taxi as kids are in bed, him: why don't you cycle, me: nice clothes on, shopping bags, dark, him: can't believe you're not going to cycle, why not cycle, so lazy etc etc.
Then shortly after, me: no bread, need to go to shops before lunch, him: what about breakfast, me: we can have cereal, him: you hate cereal, you never eat cereal, me: i'm happy with cereal (i DO like it!), him: no you don't, me:i'm not going to have an argument about whether or not I like cereal!

Suicide threat: emotional blackmail. I replied by saying I was not going to be blackmailed. He said he had seriously considered it, but I don't think so. He was quite drunk at the time too.

We will chat about the move while we're away (going to be about 20 mins from ideal location!).
I do worry that if we move, we would do it once he had a job, and I would pick one up later (he earns more so makes sense - logistics of moving, resettling kids in new schools, him starting work and the timing of it all would be less of a problem if it wasn't around me moving jobs too). However, this would then mean I would be completely financially dependent on him until a new job turned up. Also, although we are miles from family here, I have a great job where I am established and they know i'm not taking the mick with requesting certain hours etc and needing time for kid-related things (illness etc). It would take time to build that up again. But that's another set of issues completely!

The thing is, as I'm sure you're aware, past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour.

But because you don't want to condemn someone because of past mistakes, you keep optimistically believing they will change.

How much of a problem is the dope smoking? Does it affect your evenings? or weekends with kids? I used to smoke a fair amount when I had my first job after university and I found it was a problem if I did it during the week, as I'd be a bit slow the next day at work. Fri or Sat evenings were OK but I had no children to entertain/be responsible for - how does that work for him?

I think what you're dealing with is exhausting. I can relate to those arguments that seem so unnecessary - why does he worry if you choose to get a taxi home for very sensible reasons? He should support you in that and agree that cycling after dark, with bags might not be safe. But it sounds like he is being argumentative for the sake of it, or because you're not doing what suits him, which is very selfish.

The suicide threat can perhaps be overlooked if he was very drunk. But getting drunk has an impact and is quite selfish in itself if the aftermath of the drinking mean there is this sort of fallout.

In terms of the move, I would try and see the long term plan in all this - for you and the children. Not worry too much about the first year of settling/new job, schools etc. but if it would be better for you long term, especially if your long term could be as a single parent, then I would focus on that and the rest will iron out.

No appointments available this week :(
Well they did have one tomorrow evening, but don't think it would work while he is home too.

I did one from my mobile phone once, sitting in the car about 2 streets away from where we live! The counsellor was happy to phone a mobile for the hour appointment.

Could you pretend you're going for a run/walk/visit a friend?

Got to go now but I'll be back later tonight

The dope smoking just increases when he thinks he's getting away with it.

I can't stand it - the smell is a real turn off, I just see him as an overgrown (childish) students in relation to it.

Not just that but the deception involved too - he was always tried to wind me up in relation to it.

I was with him for just about 2 years before he started it again, having given up. We had a holiday where he kept disappearing and there were absences that were just wierd. Turned out he'd been sneaking off for a smoke several time a day. During this holiday he proposed! And once we were home, he began to wind me up about smoking, and then would taunt me that he'd been doing it all that time and i didn't 'mind' then.
And always inappropriately - leaving it all out on the shed bench, sneaking out when we have guests over, sneaking out throughout the evening on my 30th when it was just me and him at home having a 'nice' dinner (I didn't say anything coz I didn't want ot ruin my birthday). He knew how much I hated it, so why do it all through my birthday?

The 'slowness' you talk about is visible. A real dopeyness!!

The car used to stink of it, so I can only assume it was during lunchbreaks etc, which can't be a good thing.

Thank you so much for replying to my posts. I really appreciate the time you are taking.

How much of an issue is the fact that he comes from the Southern Hemisphere? You mention in your initial op that he has talked about moving back there, is his homesickness a factor? Or is he happy to settle for good in the UK?

Good question cornflowers - it's something we've talked about from time to time. He has family there but no friends, and hardly speaks to his family (but maybe that's just a bloke thing). We have visited a couple of times and he has been happy to come back here. Like the suicide threat, I think it is essentially just another threat. He hasn't made any friends here either though. That's just him.

I would love to feel sufficiently secure in the relationship to move there for a while, but as it is, I would have even less support there (inlaws are about as useful as a chocolate teapot) and don't think it would be straightforward returning (custody of kids) if things went pear-shaped there.

I imagined I would be with someone who I would travel to the ends of the earth for.

From what you describe of the dope smoking northerner I'm not surprised you are as concerned about your future together, as you are.

That sounds awful - the sneeking off and trying to hide smoking but also winding you up about it. Is that like a taunting kind of thing? The slowness that you say happens must have an impact on work and your family time. All so wrong and you are absolutely right to say that it's unacceptable to you.

I really think you should have that appointment with the Relate counsellor and get help working out what your options are. Maybe it's worth having couple counselling together? Maybe best to have it yourself? But just to even work that out, a session would help.

Have you played through the scenario of splitting up in your head? How does that go? I found it helpful to rehearse it because the more I did so, the less scary it got and once it was sorted in my mind (and sorted through getting professional help from a solicitor, again over the phone which is much less daunting than face to face) I then had the confidence to tell my DH the very real impact of his behaviour - which by that stage was that I preferred the scenario of being apart, than the one of staying together with him in his current state (the one that he was saying was perfectly OK and it was me with the problem).

Maybe rehearse what you do/where you go in the same way. Also think about what it is exactly you want to change in your DH, my counsellor asked me that, but got me to be really specific about behaviours that were to go and what I needed from him.

Ok, so I now have an appointment with Relate this evening - DH said he'd be home late (hope so now!) - just need to get kids in to bed before 6.45. Wish me luck!!!!
Think I might have to change the clocks and put a DVD on rather CBeebies!!!

No idea where to start with the counsellor - do they ask questions and help you out? I'm really nervous. Feel like I've got a job interview!

It is nerve wracking you're right. I found I was very nervous too with my heart racing just before the call. But once I got started it was fine - I was talking about something I was an expert on - my views of my marriage - and it all came pouring out.

Don't worry or over think it now - they are professionals so trained to get you talking and to listen. Hope it goes well.

Hope the timing works - try giving your little guys their tea early too so they don't feel rushed into bed after tea!

Thanks!

I feel sick. So not like me. Excuse all the millions of typos previously too (and the ones to come).

Yes, I've thought through the splitting up senario in my head lots. He seems to agree that if it comes to that, he would be the one that moves out, which is what I would want. We haven't talked specifically about what would happen with the kids, but he commented that they would stay here and he would come and see them. Obviously we would have to figure that out properly.

I am terrified about not seeing them or being with them. I have been with them all day every day, and done virtually everything for them since the days they were born. Although a lie-in and day off every now and again would be nice, I cannot imagine being without them.

I was thinking last night, that if we didn't have the kids, I'd have just left in November.

Ho hum school run time.

Thanks for replying again. I really appreciate it.

I wonder if you feel as nervous as you do not just because of the phone call but because it might be the start of something really daunting - the splitting up thing. The phone call in itself will be under your control and is for you, of benefit to you in getting your thoughts straight - but you are opening up a huge can of worms and maybe that is the thing making you feel so nervous.

The thing is the can of worms is under your control as well, at least for now anyway. You can take this as far or not as you like.

My biggest fear about splitting was loosing my children for every other weekend so I understand that. Maybe other people who have been through that can offer you some views on it - I know a friend of mine hated it at first and criedbuckets everytime her little boy went off to his dads. But she did eventually enjoy her free weekends too and went on to meet a fab guy and have childfree couply weekends with him. Tough though.

You have certainly not had your sorrows to seek , People have mostly said already what I would have said but I will add this in to relation about how I felt with my ex.

I felt towards the end of our relationship like I was treated like a second class human, my feelings, needs and opinions held no power, this is no way to go through life, his actions all point to someone being deeply selfish but also (hate to say this not trying to hurt you) someone who is not happy so lashing out at you. Now it might be if you split up he will come to deeply regret his actions (as my ex did) but you can't spend life walking on egg shells around some big huffy child in the hope things get better, it's scary to let go but sometimes thats worse than the idea of holding on and spending more years like this.

I would never council anyone to leave their partner after reading a few lines about their relationship but I do think the time has come for you to decide what you want and fight for it whether thats saving a bad relationship by making it better (if that's possible) or moving on.

very best of luck x

Thanks Tangled and Loves2cycle.

Just putting a few thoughts down. The relate session was interesting. I've felt quite wierd since. She confirmed how I was feeling about various situations and was good to discuss how things might be from his point of view. Gave me an idea of a couple of things we can talk about (he often ends up bouncing things back on to me - eg. when i ask him what he wants to happen!).

The kids went to bed easily, but the 6 yr old twigged while I was on the phone that he'd been put to bed early, so came in a couple of times to complain!

How do you deal with the kids being out each weekend? I swing between being totally stressed and calm. If it happened, I'm sure I would be like your friend to start with.

My head hurts!