abusive son

[smokingnuns]

I have a history of abuse and have looked at the pattern of abuse in the past through counselling, support groups etc. As a result of the work I did then I was able to leave my abusive husband when our children were young. Following his very quick death from cancer 4 years ago, my children have all since become abusive towards me, my son (21, the youngest of our 4 children) the worst, who has influenced the others.

My children have all left home but my son came back to live with me 6 months ago and it was like a rerun of the abuse I had from his father. I am feeling very depressed/powerless again and have got together some info about domestic abuse support groups and courses to attend to remind me again. Son will be moving out in 2 weeks which will give me the chance to settle and regroup. It is very challenging that it is all happening again, very hard that it is from my own son/children, hard to know how to approach it.

I am planning to visit my GP to again start taking anti-depressants as I did when I was in the same situation years ago. I would also like some therapy but don't know enough about various therapies on offer as I have been out of the loop. In the past I have done a lot of work on my primary family and the patterns of abuse that were established then, though will need reminding about that too I expect. What I am facing now is extremely painful and I don't need/want to sit with my feelings - I am reluctant to go down the psychotherapy route and wonder if anyone knows what therapies are available - not only their title but what they are and involve. I believe that what I need the most is information, strategies and support - is that reasonable?

I am on a low income and would need a referral from my GP, though I don't hold out much hope that I could access much of quality on the NHS because of poor mental health funding - is that a fair assumption? I would sell my house to pay for the right therapy but would prefer not to have to do that.

Does anyone also have any info about books/courses/whatever which have been helpful in an abusive situation? My heart is breaking that I am back here again - even harder when it is my own son as I am still, and will always be, his parent.

Gutted for you. This happens far more often than we realise. It's especially horrid for you to be victimised by your own child. You're right, you deserve to live without fear and I'm delighted to hear he's leaving! Is it possible to cut all contact with your DCs? I know that would hurt, but could be necessary for your own health & safety.

I'm unclear as to what you're asking about therapy. What is it that you want to achieve?

Sorry to hear about your situation, but when you understand all the issues and triggers and are aware of the abusive dynamic, it isn't you who needs the therapy. You just need the strength to put the appropriate boundaries into place, call your son on the abusive behaviour and HE is the one who is in need of help.

'though I don't hold out much hope that I could access much of quality on the NHS because of poor mental health funding - is that a fair assumption?'

No, I don't think so. Good quality care is available, but not enough of it so you will have to wait on a list for a while.

In what way are your children abusive towards you?

smokingnuns, are you looking for a therapy that will help you to build & respect your own boundaries, stop feeling guilt & shame for other people's behaviours and so on? It sounds as if you've traced your "abuseability" back to things that happened in your past, but stopped working on it once you'd acknowledged some of your feelings. Sorry if I've got that wrong.

There is more to it. I've learned a lot of useful techniques in therapy that help me to recognise what's going on, to not be triggered, and to get in charge of situations. I learned them all from psychotherapists!

If you're up to posting a bit more, maybe we can offer some ideas.

While you're searching for the help you need, remember that only you can guard your own doorway. Tell your DC what is required in order to access you, (whatever matters to you - respect/manners, etc.) and stick to that. Offer things in return.

It's OK to have boundaries, whoever you're interacting with. You can have authentic relationships with some rules based on mutual respect.

Keep posting on here if it helps. We're all human, even if we do communicate through t/interweb...

Thankou for your kindness. I am in bits about this.

I didn't expect it from my children! At present I am in a bad way, blaming myself. All I can see is abuse, stretching right back - now this. It is more than I can bear, I am beside myself. It must be me, how can it not be me?

well, lets put it this way, even if it was you, you do not like it and you are so not going to take it, right?
I was going to say kick him out, but he is going so that is good
It sound like THEY need therapy more than you do tbh

Weel, no, smoking, boys get their model from their dads, don't they? Was your ex an angry bully?

weel Well (I'm not Scottish!)

Hello Smoking...do you mean that your children only started to abuse you since their father died? They must have been adults, or almost adults when he died?

Were you a lone parent after you had left your H? Did the children see your exH during this time?

Sorry for all the questions!

Why are you not keen on psychotherapy? This is provided on the NHS, but you will probably have to wait a while to see someone.

What do they do when they abuse you? Can you give us an example?

I am very concerned about you considering selling your home to pay for therapy. Please don't do that, or tell anyone you would do that. There are some people around who would take advantage of that knowledge.

ageing no ex wasn't an angry bully, he was as smooth as silk, adored by the whole world.

I am concerned and uncomfortable that I am self-absorbed in this crisis. It seems impossible not to be as I feel as though I am fighting for my survival. I have forgotten my kids, fallen off my perch - they are not in a good place if they have resorted to bullying and scapegoating. My son is depressed, self-medicating with drugs and drink - high (I don't know what on) or drunk every day, sometimes early in the day. Doesn't eat or sleep well, involved in a nasty social scene. He is in a bad way and is extremely abusive, which I have got the full brunt off at close quarters, and it has sent me into a spin. I feel desperate to get a grip, to step away and get my bearings. I've lost my boundaries, don't even know what my boundaries are, have lost all track.

I've been here before but I worked through it before - it's not new to me.

Do I sound like a dimwit? I mean that as a genuine question - do I come across as someone who is stupid? I only ask because people often draw that conclusion, which surprises me. I may be in crisis but I haven't lost all my senses. I wouldn't 'tell anyone' I am considering selling my house to pay for therapy, wouldn't walk into a psychotherapist's office and say that I need therapy and would sell my house to pay for it. Perhaps I am being touchy.

My children did start abusing me when their dad died. There was no indication of it before, though there were usual teen issues and some very poor behaviour.

I brought them up alone, ex no help at all, the opposite. They saw him regularly and adored him, along with the rest of the world (including my family, whose adoration never wavered).

No. You sound vey far froma dimwit. You do sound desperate, frightened and confused. I was sort of dazed for a long time, it did make people think I was a few sandwiches short of a picnic. I used to think I know why they say people are "not all there!" I wasn't! But not in the way people thought.

From what you say your kids sound pretty fucked up, sadly. It must break your heart. So your ex, did he turn them against you? Is he one of those people who play mind games, do you think?

Or are they just acting out their grief. (It doesn't sound like it to me, but it's best to ask.)

Four years is quite a long time. I do know it's not that long to get used to the death of a partner, especially if your relationship was of the complicated variety. But it's long enough for young adults to find their balance again.

You sound as if you're asking whether you deserve to be abused? Nobody does, you know that - not even the worst criminal deserves abuse. So tell us what happened, if you can.

There's that book called 'A woman in your own right' by Ann Dickson, link below:

www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Your-Own-Right-Assertiveness/dp/0704334208

Anyway, congratulations on the fact that your youngest is moving out again in 2 weeks.

I love your nickname, TooJung

smoking, I just thought I should add a bit more about why I was dazed. I had PTSD from the bullying & gaslighting. My doctor diagnosed it, I had no idea. Did a bit of reading and it all fit ...

Not to say you're the same, but what you said about fighting for survival really rang a bell with me. Like my focus had got really, really narrow - almost as if there were dark walls around, and I had to fix on one glimmer of light to keep going. I was scared all the time (hypervigilant) but I'd got so used to it, I'd stopped noticing the fear.

Smoking, I was not for a moment suggesting you are a dimwit. You sound very down and confused, and there are, sadly, people who will take advantage of that.

I was trying to find out how this had all come about, as I too have been abused all my life and am now in psychotherapy.

Your children sound angry and confused themselves, and although you say that they, along with everyone else, adored your late exH, it actually sounds as though they are very confused about him.

He sounds, even with the small snippets you have shared, like the typical charming to everyone, abusive at home person, and the children will have picked up on that. Your son sounds as though he is self-medicating to blot is all out. Sadly the parent who is the easiest to approach and the constant one in their lives often takes the brunt of the anger. That's not to say they are behaving in an acceptable fashion of course.

I was lucky in that I managed to turn my children round from the path of abuser after I left my horrible exH who everyone thought was wonderful. But he is not dead so I have no idea what would happen if he did die.

Grief does funny things to people, especially if they had confused feelings about that person anyway.

I will leave you to Grace's wise words. I hope I haven't upset you again.

i have been dazed and confused my whole life Grace. Toxic family - scapegoating, extreme bullying. It took me a long time to find out it wasn't me who was mad.

I also won't be talking about the details, certainly not on a public forum, like a party piece. If someone posted on here that they had been sexually abused, would people automatically ask for the details? "What did he do to you?" There is no designated forum for domestic abuse on MN, it comes within relationships. If anyone is blessed enough to have never experienced domestic abuse and is curious about what happens, please read the various checklists available on domestic abuse sites.

I couldn't and didn't talk about the details of the abuse in my marriage in years of therapy but could in the support groups, though not too much or often because everyone was in such a state. We talked mostly about logistics and strategies, not too often about details. If I read details on here I shake - is that what 'triggering' means? I once read a book written by an expert in trauma, equating the trauma in domestic abuse victims to the trauma of vietnam vets. I can relate to that. See, I can talk around it but not about it.

I left my husband soon after the hostages came out of Beirut - if they could get free from that horror when it looked impossible, so could I. They had debriefing and I recognised that that was what I needed. I don't know where I can debrief - the therapists I saw had no idea about narcissism, or NPD. Do they now? If any memories pop up I avoid them - what could I do with them? It happened, it was terrible and terrifying, it's over*.

My son is away for the weekend so I have some peace. When he puts the key in the door I feel the same fear I felt when his father did the same.

*Is it me, or is there an elephant in the room?

Smoking, the Freedom program is excellent. It will really help you get yourself together. They have courses all over the country. www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/

Just got your post IcyGrip. Very helpful, particularly the comments about my children - thank you - and apologies I bit your head off yesterday. I am often treated like an idiot, patronised, and it astonishes me. Probably after a lifetime of hypervigilence I can see through to people's bones a lot of the time, can see their faults and weaknesses - amazed when they treat me like I'm the one who is the idiot. I must be giving that off?

I have made enquiries about the Freedom Programme Visitor, even located local groups. The classes are on weekdays, not easy to get time off work. I'm working on it though.

Thanks for the book suggestion TooJung

I sympathise totally. Perhaps you're just begining to see that others here do, too. The damage that can be wrought on a human mind, body and life by bullies is so extreme that I'm not surprised most 'normal' people are unable to comprehend.

I don't talk much about what happened to me because I can't remember it! An unconscious survival strategy, but it has held my treatment back at times. Did you end up with some therapists who couldn't get beyond 'helping you cope' rather than addressing the damage? Me, too. It's like offering a sticky plaster to someone who's been shot in the heart.

I'm relieved for you, that you found some helpful groups.

When you've got some time (the threads are very long), have a look at these:

Current Stately Homes:
took-you-to-Statley-Homes-Dysfunctional-families-thread
The previous one, with links to its predecessors:
took-you-to-Stately-Homes-Dysfunctional-parents

The last NPD thread, with links to earlier ones:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1033653-NPD-Abusive-partner-Recovery-thread

Many of us find Pete Walker's books and articles on Complex PTSD very helpful. There are lots of articles on his website.
pete-walker.com/fAQsComplexPTSD.html

You're not making it up.
It's NOT you, it's what's been DONE TO you.

You do deserve to live peacefully. You can have that, and there are people who will help you find out how.

Sorry, I don't know why those links broke. here goes again:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1105409-But-we-took-you-to-Statley-Homes-Dysfunctional-families-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1074302-But-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-Dysfunctional-parents

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1033653-NPD-Abusive-partner-Recovery-thread

(Turns out the links are clickable, even with errors!)

Thanks for those links Grace. I was looking at those earlier but found it difficult to read - triggering? (Please can you confirm what triggering means.)

Didn't know what you meant when you said "Perhaps you're just begining to see that others here do, too." NOt sure what that related to?

The therapists I saw had no idea what I had experienced with my husband. They generally understood the things that had been happening in my family but if I mentioned anything in passing about the things that happened in my marriage - well, I couldnt talk about it. I couldn't risk not being believed, or a moment of the therapist not getting it (which was common), or the dreaded silence - agony. I needed someone who understood what I was talking about, particularly as you don't necessarily make a lot of sense when you start talking about it. I called a local domestic abuse helpline once, back in the day, and the woman I spoke to said "Surely it's not that bad!". That's enough to shut you up for good.

Oh fgs, she said THAT??!!
Poor you, smokingnuns. It takes such a big effort to make the call ... and then you got a put-down from someone who was supposed to be qualified to help. I'm so sorry.

Yes, I think you mean 'triggering'. It's when something causes a flashback - emotional or sensory - makes you feel disproportionately upset because it brings up reactions from a previous situation. The thing that prompts the reaction is a trigger.

What I wrote before: I sympathise totally. Perhaps you're just begining to see that others here do, too, I meant that several members of this forum have been through horrific experiences with their primary families and/or partners, and understand what abuse does to you. I had the impression you felt dis-entitled to sympathy; I wanted to let you know that there is some understanding here for you.

I'm sorry if it was inappropriate.