Is my DH just being a knob or is he acting like this due to stress/depression/something else? Help please!

[mum295]

(Sorry, long!)

I want to say first of all that DH is normally lovely, and is outwardly very easy-going and cheerful. But he can be quite grumpy, tends to bring work stress home, and it's me that bears the brunt of it.

He is NEVER violent, just grumpy and sometimes angry (not directed at me/DD). He is just the kind of person who externalises his feelings rather than bottling up (which I do). He is also the kind of person who blames others for things going wrong and rarely holds his hands up and says "I'm sorry, that was my fault". He is also not very perceptive of others' feelings and tends to think the worst of people.

Every 4-6 months it seems to bubble up and he 'snaps' saying nasty things and trying to goad me into having a major row. I'm trying to work out whether he's just being a bit of a grumpy old sod/knob or whether this is a sign of something more worrying related to work stress or depression or something else.

For background info, he works very long hours in a well-paid but highly-stressful environment. He moved to his current job out of his choice as he found his old job too boring. He also has a commute either end.

I am a SAHM by default, having been made redundant a while ago. I am currently pregnant with DC2 and have had worse morning sickness and tiredness than with DD. Before getting pregnant I was diagnosed anaemic (and was exhausted) also DD didn't sleep through the night for almost a whole year, and I was the one getting up with her so that DH could sleep, even at weekends. I don't particularly enjoy being a SAHM and will be returning to work once DC2 is old enough. I don't like relying on DH for money as I know it puts undue pressure on him. We decided I would take a career break to sort out our new house and have another baby.

DH comes home from work most nights around 9pm and has a big moan about his work, rarely asking how I am, although he does ask about DD. He is a great Dad. At weekends he is exhausted, sleeps loads (he has always needed his sleep), and always "needs" to work, checking his Blackberry constantly. We probably get a few hours from him at most, and even then I'd say his mind is elsewhere.

(Before anyone says it, he's not having an affair - he really is too knackered!)

He's been ill for the past couple of weeks with a cough/cold but has refused to get medical help from GP/walk-in centre and both past weekends have been all-but wiped out as a result. To be fair, I haven't shown him much sympathy because he refused to go to the GP and get antibiotics when he clearly had a chest infection, so I basically told him he only had himself to blame. I have told him that as I am looking after the house, DD, myself, (and am feeling lousy due to pregnancy), I just don't have the energy to look after him too at the moment.

Anyway, he snapped at me at the weekend, saying some nasty things about how he should just pay his salary into our account and get a flat by his office for during the week (he pretty much is just a weekend dad). He also kept goading me saying that I'd been biting his head off every time he opened his mouth, and (as on previous occasions) keeps saying "you need to tell me what's REALLY wrong/on your mind" as if I'm the one with the problem, like I'm going to tell him I want to split up or something (I don't!).

I realise that I probably have said some things that have riled him, and am part of the problem, but I have tried to be more careful about what I've said, treading on eggshells, so I really do think that some of it is in his head, or he is hearing what he wants to hear. Also, if he says something inflammatory/critical to me, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to explain myself in response, but if I do so he bites my head off.

I really hate it when he's like this and I try to just walk away from it/brush it off. Most of the time he's lovely and as I said, is a fab Dad. We were together for several years before starting a family, and our children have been very much planned and wanted (took us a while to conceive). I think part of the problem is that he was the centre of my world until DD was born, and has been pushed to one side, and it's been worse for the past year with me being tired/ill.

But I can't work out if he's being a self-pitying idiot or if this is something more serious relating to work stress or depression, for which he should be seeking help.

I would appreciate your thoughts, although I should make it clear that I am not going to leave him, he's not being abusive or having an affair, so any advice of that kind will be ignored!

what was he like at the beginning of the relationship? What was he like in his old job? Sounds like stress to me but depends on whether he's changed or always been the same.

Sounds tough

Thanks Ruby.

He's always been easy-going, cheerful, etc. Was especially so at the start of the relationship, before his career kicked in.

Whatever job he's been in since the first year or so we were together, even when working for himself, he has given himself to it 110% and come home complaining about it/the people he works with. His old job was terrible due to his old boss and lack of challenge/reward for him. He does acknowledge that he's a workaholic and seems to see work as his reason for being.

Aggression and irritability is a common symptom of depression/stress in men, particularly if he has a stressful job and young children. As are negative thought patterns, e.g. complaining about work colleagues, lack of rewards at work, bad bosses, and needing lots of sleep, obsessing with phones, not interacting with family. Particularly if this is not his normal behaviour. Men are really bad at talking about their feelings, or seeing GPs for help too. Also, people with depression often don't realise that their behaviour and thinking is not normal.

Maybe try and read up a little on depression and men if you are concerned about that, and then sit down and talk to him, asking him how he feels, and go from there.

Thank you, livinginazoo. I don't have a lot of experience with depression, so don't know what to look for....need to do some reading, as you suggested, thanks!

try the depression fallout boards
and see if you recgonize your H

search for "setting boundaries" on the boards for some ideas to try

www.depressionfallout.com/messageboard.php

Im not saying he is having an affair but I am saying you cant rule it out on the basis of him being too busy

He may be so busy but he could still have someone else in his head/ideas of another life that is making him so seemingly depressed and snappy and unhappy with you.

I thought my H was depressed and was trying to help him when I found out he had been having an affair for 18 months.

And wanting to have a flat near the office would make me wonder too. Not a good sign (sorry)

Is he open with his phone and leaves it around or not?

Thanks cestlavielife will check it out.

Mumfun he's very open with everything - phone and Blackberry are left lying around, I know all of his logins as I manage our finances and sometimes have to use his email for admin related to holidays and so on

Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive, but the flat-close-to-work thing is just because he's fed up with the commute (trains have been crap the past two weeks). We've concluded we can't afford it.

295 that is good he is open with phone and email etc.

But I would still wonder if he is unhappy with his life and trying to move away somewhat and distance himself. I hope it isnt the case.

"I realise that I probably have said some things that have riled him, and am part of the problem, but I have tried to be more careful about what I've said, treading on eggshells, so I really do think that some of it is in his head, or he is hearing what he wants to hear. Also, if he says something inflammatory/critical to me, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to explain myself in response, but if I do so he bites my head off".

If you have modified your behaviour over time to try and suit his then you yourself are sliding down a slippery slope.

When I see the phrase walking on eggshells I also think "living in fear".

I would also wonder whether he blows up like this with other people or infact whether it is just you who cops this ill treatment of him. My guess is that it is the latter.

Has he actually stated to you that he feels depressed?. He may not actually be depressed at all but has decided instead to take out all his frustrations on you.

You cannot and should not make yourself responsible for him, you are not responsible for your H.

Those two above points of yours are in themselves worrying, let alone the rest of your initial post. There are serious problems here within your relationship but does he at heart want to sort it out as much as you do?. My guess is that he is quite happy the way he is.

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. Is his parents relationship similar to yours?.

Have you considered talking to Relate on your own?.

He may be a "great dad" but he's certainly not being a great husband to you is he?. I would argue he is not a great dad at all if he can and does treat the mother of his children like this. You allow this to happen too.

I would also ask you what you would actually class as abuse (be it emotional or verbal). Do you not feel you have been emotionally or verbally abused here?. Abuse is not just physical after all and it is also about power and control.

As for this comment of yours, "I would appreciate your thoughts, although I should make it clear that I am not going to leave him, he's not being abusive or having an affair, so any advice of that kind will be ignored!" just comes across as defensive and not wanting to perhaps admit to one's own self that there is the potential for abuse here. Denial is a powerful force too. If you had thought this was at all a healthy situation then you would not have posted.

Thanks Attila, your comments gave me a jolt.

What I would say is that when he acts like this, it is not very often and it's far-from his normal behaviour. But I do think it's been worse recently, possibly triggered by some health issues.

After reading the advice from livinginazoo I've done a bit of reading on depression and it's ringing a lot of alarm bells with me.

Until I posted this thread, I was quite angry with DH, thinking he was just being a self-pitying idiot, but I am now becoming more convinced that there's something else going on here (stress/depression).

I'm going to have to think about how to tackle this with him. I think he's going to tell me I'm being ridiculous, but I love him and I want to help him.

I agree with every word of Attila's post. He is being abusive, albeit in a low-key sort of way. 'Drip, drip' is just as effective as 'thump, thump' when it comes to making you feel responsible for his moods and pussyfooting around, shaping yourself to his needs. He's a grown-up; he's responsible for himself.

He's never taken responsibility. When life doesn't exactly fit his requirements, he blames co-workers, bosses, you. That's absurdly immature. Does he get peeved when the traffic lights go red in front?

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, it could be that he doesn't realise how far he's become locked into his stress spiral. I think it would be helpful for you to ASK him what he wants. A downsize, either job-wise to be nearer home, or house-wise to be nearer work, could be an option. Or maybe he is afraid of becoming too old for his Very Important Job, and could use some clarification on that. You won't know until you make him talk.

you cannot "help" him directly - though yes of course you can support him, encourage him to get the help he needs. etc .

but ultimately is down to him.

sometimes an ultimatum works - your stress/depression is impacting on me/the DC. you need to get help or there will be serious consequences for us/our relationship/the family.

please see GP and get some help/advice/support.

i know directly of two cases where this direct "ultimatum" approach worked... or you might argue that is is the the fact he is too depressed/stressed to see what is going on - you need to be blunt with him.

and know what is the limit to what you can do - as regards an adult. he is responsible for how he deals with his stress.....

x-posted :) Go for it! Good luck.

If he tells you that you are being ridiculous then that is his lookout; you are still not responsible for him at the end of the day. If he truly loves you he cannot and should not be making you solely responsible for his current state of mind. You did not make him that way.

If he is a workaholic then chances are he is not actually working as effectively or as efficiently as he could be.

The only acceptable level of abuse within a relationship is NONE. That applies equally to verbal and emotional abuse as well.

If he did not visit the GP previously when he had a physical ailment it is most unlikely that he is going to want to talk about any stress and or depression to his GP let alone even go along to a surgery. You need to decide what you do if he decides not to visit the GP. Words are cheap; if he promises to go, you make sure he does. If he does happen to go to the GP you must also go along there with him.

On a wider level you cannot and should not feel that you are walking on eggshells. You're his wife and certainly not there to act as his emotional punchbag. His treatment of you as his wife currently is totally unacceptable. You need to set your own clear boundaries here and disengage from him.

You may want to read "The verbally abusive relationship" written by I think Patricia Evans.

apart from the "is it abuse" angle there is a good post on the depression fallout board- "fixing you is killing me"
"the problem comes when we want to help them more than they want to help themselves "

depressionfalloutmessageboard.yuku.com/topic/6455/Fixing-you-is-killing-me-from-archives

for a long time i tried to "fix" my exP and help him "cure" his stress /depression... til i read "why does he do that?" ....

From my experience, men who live with depression do behave in the most absurdly immature ways. But depression is a real and very serious illness (apparently the main cause of death of men under 35) and very common. Men are extremely vulnerable, exactly because they don't seek help. There is a very good book by Tim Cantopher on depression, and a report on depression and men on the website for Mind, plus there was recently (January I think) a special issue on men and depression in the Times.

However, although I find Attila's comment a bit harsh as making the assumption he does have depression then he is acting like this because he is very ill not because he is an abuser, I have to agree with the crux of it. You can't change him, you can't make him better, you can't make him get help, and you have to make a decision about how to look after yourself and your children best. Because, if he is depressed he may get better on his own without help, or he may get worse. And worse is not fun believe me.

Perhaps try and post on mental health, as there are quite a few people there with depression or partners with the illness, they might have some other advice.

Thank you again livinginazoo, I agree with your comments (once again). I did skim-read the feature in The Times, now cursing myself for sticking it in the recycling, but remember some of it.

Am going to try to talk to him about it tonight in the first instance and see where to go from there.

That is the pain about the Times online as it is subscription only, but not that expensive I think? In the guardian there were two articles by Mark Rice-Oxley on his experiences of depression which are free, and quite interesting too.

Good luck!

telling your partner you haven't got time to look after them could make them pretty much feel unappreciated.

for some people having care shown towards them when they are ill is a big signifier of being loved.

okay he is an adult and i totally get the annoyance at him not going to the gp (my OH does this all the time too). but can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you make him feel appreciated?

i'm guessing that's what all the stuff about might as well pay his salary into your account and bugger off is all about. it's a childish way of saying "you don't care about me, all i'm good for is my money".

why not make a concerted effort to make him realise you love and care for him and are proud of him. if he still acts like a dick after a couple of weeks of that then you'll realise it's nothing you are doing that's the problem.

Thanks kepler I take your comments on the chin!

The thing is, it isn't that long since he had some more serious health issues, just before Christmas, and I dropped everything and took care of him, and he said how much he appreciated it.

Then I found out I was pregnant, started feeling lousy, and the care hasn't exactly been reciprocated....like he's in his own little bubble. For example, waiting for the 12-week scan I was very upset and anxious, especially as they kept us waiting, but he kept going on about how unwell he was feeling (for gazillionth time that week) so I told him "not now". He just couldn't seem to see beyond the end of his own nose.

Anyway, yes, I do realise that I need to be nicer to him, starting today, but I do think there's more to this than him sulking about me being mean to him.

mum,

"You need to be nicer to him as of today".

He should be bloody well nicer to you as of today!!. You have acted reasonably towards him throughout, more than reasonably infact. You've altered your behaviour to fit in with him (as mentioned before that is a slippery slope for you to go down). Walking on eggshells is not a great place for you to be in.

He is also not a great dad if he can treat his wife, the mother of his child with now another one the way (BTW I should have written congratulations earlier) like that.

I get the feeling he does not like this in company or with other people. He is reserving all his verbal bile for you. I think too that he got used to being the centre of your universe and now he is not (he feels usurped) he does not like that one bit. That is his problem, not yours.

Talk to him by all means but do not let him disregard your concerns or shout you down. You need to disengage from him if he does that.

Atilla, yes of course he should be nicer to her. But, if he does have depression he will absolutely despise himself and not be thinking normally about anything. It is just not that straightforward. People with depression are not functioning like a 'normal' person, their thinking is screwed up to the extreme, as is their behaviour, they feel utterly crap the whole time, extreme tiredness, are often suicidal, and they don't realise that this pained and suffered way of living is just not how everyone else feels. And yes often they will be nice to outsiders because they are putting on a facade, and even that is exhausting for them.

That is not to say, just put up with it, but you just can't compare the way they speak or behave to a normally functioning person. Of course no one in a marriage should have to put up with abusive treatment, but you have to think of the depressed person as not being themselves and give them a chance to get help (which can take a long time - both the getting help from the stage they realise they need it, and it making any difference). You just wouldn't be saying the same things if her husband had alzheimers or cancer. But, I do think that at the same time, if nothing changes, no she should absolutely not feel obligated to live with that treatment indefinitely, and yes she does need to disengage from it.

Hi Ladies OP reporting back here.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep you all in suspense about the outcome of this one as DH has called to say he is still at work, has loads more to do, so is going to kip on his friend's sofa in town tonight. (And yes, he really is...if this were an excuse to cover something else up I could blow the excuse in an instant.)

Anyway, he just sounds very tired, not snappy today, just plain knackered, and I am feeling very sorry for him now. He said to me that he thinks he's suffering from exhaustion, so hopefully I can push that a little further and get him to the GP this week.

Will still plan to talk to him tomorrow night and I will report back.

In the meantime, I am going to get an early night myself.

"I'm trying to work out whether he's just being a bit of a grumpy old sod/knob or whether this is a sign of something more worrying related to work stress or depression or something else."

But if it is something else eg. abuse then don't you want to know?

Depression isn't an excuse to be a bastard to your wife. 'Just a grump git'...or a nasty, aggressive pig? You decide.