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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Help! Advice needed. New to site & first post.

26 replies

arkmh · 01/02/2011 12:41

A few weeks ago I found out that my partner of 23 years (we have 3 children) has been having an affair with a woman 15 years younger than him. He was apparently at the stage of their relationship when he was having to make a decision about who to be with. She is married with 2 young children. I have gone through his emails (don't normally pry but I felt that this needed it!)and it is clear from all of the correspondance between them that he was not at all sure about leaving me and our boys and that she was putting a lot of pressure onto him to leave us. When I finally confronted him about the affair he said that his choice was now clear and that he would have to leave me as how could I possibly ever have him back after what he'd done? I told him exactly why we should stay together, how we could build on our relationship (which has been unphysical for many years due to so many reasons). IAlthough I in no way condone what he did, I feel that I have been quite cold towards him, when he has tried so often to be close. He is a very physical person and I'm not so not being tactile towards each other was very significant to him in a way that it wasn't to me. We generally get on very well and many commment on what a good team we make. I just feel so bitter about what he did that I don't know if I can put it behind me. Before I even found out about the affair I made a New Year resolution to try to rekindle the physical side of our relationship, and now I feel that I'm back to square 1. DH is essentially a lovely guy. Good dad, v.(too) hard working and I should have show much more affection but how do I even start to get over this? He works with OW which I'm struggling with.

OP posts:
pink4ever · 01/02/2011 12:48

Am going to say something really tough here that you may not want to hear.I think you dh has already left this relationship(emotionally). Dont see how he is going to be able to even attempt working on your marriage if he works with ow?. Will be too much temptation imo.
I am not saying that marriages cant survive affairs.My dh cheated on me(in a most vile way) 5 years ago.We still together but tbh it is still eating me up inside.
My only advice would be to ask your dh not to make any hasty desicions until you have at least tried counselling(he owes your dcs that much at the very least). Hope it works out for the best.

perfumedlife · 01/02/2011 12:55

Am so sorry Arkmh.

Do you feel able to give more detail? The long period without sex must surely have had some impact on his decision to have an affair, not that this excuses it. He had the choice of being truthful and talking with you, and he didn't.

Do you really want to make this work? There is no 'wanting now what you cannot have' re the ow finding him desirable?

Tough questions, sorry. This has to be one the worst feelings in the world. I hope you have some real life friends/.family to confide in too.

nje3006 · 01/02/2011 12:57

Arkmh I'm so sorry you find yourself in this position. I don't know if you are in shock but your post sounds quite detached. Do you feel detached? There's nothing in your post about loving him. It sounds as though you do bear your share of responsibility for the state of your marriage, he bears all the responsibility for the affair.

How old are your children? Do they know what has happened between you?

I don't think it's that unusual for men to feel they can't come back after an affair, that staying is a reminder of what they did. Leaving helps them to believe that it was worth it.

Do you think he would be willing to try counselling? If not are you willing to try it yourself?

perfumedlife · 01/02/2011 12:58

Apologies Arkhm, think that came across wrong. I mean, the lack of sex and affection, is it pointing to other issues that make you feel detatched from him and the marriage?

arkmh · 01/02/2011 13:02

Can't talk to family as I feel that my mum will be too upset and it will probably get in the way of me and DP wok=rking things out. I've just started reading another thread where someone is in pretty much the same situation as me, and that sort of helps. I really want to make it work. Although he is intensely irritating, it is in a quirky almost asbergers sort of way that many find endearing! Not quite so when you live with it but I'm not that tolerant. I had 3 children in 2 years ( 20 month old when twins came along!) and I work part time and I've been so busy holding things together that our relationship has been left on the back boiler, hence this mess!! I am perfectly aware that I am not really to blame, but 5 years without sex and not much physical contact is pretty tough on him. I feel that we could emerge stronger out of this but it's going to take quite a lot of work. It feels so odd "chatting " about this. I have only told my closest friend, although my life feels as though it's fallen apart!

OP posts:
ItsGraceAgain · 01/02/2011 13:02

Ouch. How awful for you.

I understand everything you're saying about the reasons why you feel you should both work at your marriage. But I'm afraid I suspect this is more about fear of change than your real situation. You're beating yourself up for being 'cold' - is this something he's thrown at you? You're clearly a devoted wife and I'm questioning whether you would have allowed something to continue, which could threaten your marriage. It seems possible you may have instinctively withdrawn from intimacy in response to an emotional withdrawal on his part. You might find a rigorous relationship timeline illuminating in this respect, though I realise you're probably in no fit state to do that now.

he said that his choice was now clear and that he would have to leave me as how could I possibly ever have him back after what he'd done?
You are really choosing not to hear that, aren't you? He's trying to put the responsibility on you, but he is NOT saying he'd come back to you if you could forgive. Who's he to decide what you can & can't forgive? He's just being a coward and making the split (which he sees as inevitable) your fault.

I don't see how you could possibly continue whilst he works with OW.

I am sorry I haven't been able to write what you want. The issue right now isn't how you can "forgive and get over it". It's how you can get your head around what's really happening to you. I hope WWIFN will be along shortly to offer rigorously practical advice.

Meanwhile, PLEASE take decent care of yourself! Are you eating?

nje3006 · 01/02/2011 13:05

5 years without sex is a very long time when it's not something both parties want. Do you want to fix that with him or do you just think you 'should'?

If you find him intensely irritating, you don't want to have sex with him and you're not very tolerant of him, why do you want to fix this?

You say you want to emerge stronger from this. Can you say a bit more about what you mean by that?

How old are your children now?

arkmh · 01/02/2011 13:13

He has made the decision to stay and was sooooo relieved that I would have him back we've spoken so much and he says that the affair was a bit of a fantasy for him and that he always knew deep down that he couldn't be with me or our dcs. He has cried more than I've ever seen (and he never cries) and I genuinely believe that this has all been dreadful for him too. We've been together, through thick and thin, for 23 year and I know when he means something. I know that he loves me, he keeps saying how sorry he is for all of the pain that he has caused me and how sure he is that he has made the right decision to stay with me. And I do believe him. I truely believe that the physical side of our relationship is the only thing that has been lacking and that I must make an effort to kiss/cuddle ect, something that he's been askig me to do for so long. Our children have not got a clue about what is going on and it must stay that way. I think that our rel. is so strong that we have a good chance of getting through this but I feel so up and down, especially since I know that they see each other at work, and that essentailly she is still desparate to have him. DP has said, tough, that this "affair" has brought out a side in her that he hadn't seen, and doesn't like. Surprise, surprise. Grass is not always greener on the other side.

I'm eating OK now and probably leaning a bit too heavily on the alcoholic prop!!

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 01/02/2011 13:13

I'm happy to help, but need some clarification on a few things.

What's the situation now? Is he still with you but trying to reach a decision?

Will the OW actually leave her H (and possibly her DCs) to be with your H?

How old are your DCs?

What was the catalyst 5 years ago, that caused you to physically detach?

Are you married? You've been together 23 years, is there anything relevant to this situation, if you are not married?

When did he have first contact with the OW (not when did the affair start)?

What efforts has your H made, in the past 5 years, to talk to you about your relationship - and when did these conversations, if any, occur?

What is he saying now to the OW about their relationship?

arkmh · 01/02/2011 13:21

He has made his decision to stay.
The OW would have left her husband but isn't now, although he knows about the affair and has decided to take her back.
DCs are 8 and 2 6 yr olds)
I got very oevrweight after children so sex became v. unphysical. Have lost 6 stone in past 2 years (ex. and diet alone!!) and now look pretty bloody good (though I say so myself) but still not that confident about sexy stuff!) DP still gagging for it when I was "provocatively rounded" as he used to refer to me!!
Not married but that's not an issue for either of us. Were going to, set a date, my dad got ill so ......
First contact with OW about a year ago. Affair started in July following business trip abroad.
DP tried alot in past 5 years to get more tactile relationshipo going. Me holding back.
Told OW their relationship is over. No going back. He wants things to work with us.

OP posts:
nje3006 · 01/02/2011 13:31

He sounds genuinely remorseful and has ended things with her so that's a good start.

Seeing her at work is not good though.

Do you know what was going on for you in holding back from him physically? Were you feeling resentful towards him? Have you ever loved him? How do you feel about him now?

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 01/02/2011 13:58

It's difficult to comment more fully, because your posts are quite brief, but thanks for clarifying some facts.

On the positive side, your P seems to have realised what he stood to lose and is facing up to the enormity of the situation. I expect this also forced you to see how much you loved him too and what you could be losing.

However, whilst he may have talked to you about the resumption of your physical relationship, it doesn't sound as though these conversations explored the reasons behind the problem. That might be because you didn't want to confront it and he didn't push, but there are usually reasons for a lack of sex and affection and I'm still not sure you know what they were.

Significantly, he didn't take a relational risk when he became attracted to the OW and realised that he was tempted. It would be well worth asking him what he was claiming were his justifications for the affair at the time. Then ask him to tell you what his permission-giving process was? If he had been telling himself that he wouldn't have been having this affair if your relationship had been better, what stopped him coming to you before he passed the point of no return with the OW?

One of the issues I always advise couples to confront is whether your H would have had taken the opportunity to have an affair, regardless of the state of your relationship. This requires a huge amount of honesty and self-reflection, but asking questions about whether he had ever turned down opportunities before - and why - are illuminating. If this was the first time he has been seriously tempted to have an affair, as a couple you will need to properly analyse whether this might have happened anyway. It also helps to detect this, if you find out how the affair started and who took the first risk (him or the OW) in crossing the line from friendship to an affair.

All the while your H continues working with the OW, there will be a loss of safety. One of the conditions you might like to think about is that he makes strenuous efforts to change jobs. There is an excellent book about affair recovery, called Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass and I would highly recommend it. This details the steps recovering couples should make about amongst other things, continued contact with the affair partner.

arkmh · 01/02/2011 18:31

I ahve spent a long time today reading other similar stories to my own and reading all of the great advice that many of you offer up. It's unbelievable just how many people are living with the same dilemmas, This is the first chat website that I've ever used and it's quite an eye-opener, especially if you, like me, are the sort of person to try to cope with things alone. Deep down, for most of the time I feel that I've made the right decision in attemping to give our relationship a chance, and certainly I find great comfort in the fact that some of you have emerged with stronger relationships after all of the trauma of an affair. I am still only 2 weeks down the road and I know that it's going to take a long time but I truely believe that some relationships, with their warts and all, are worth working at, giving them a chance for both the couple and especially for the children. Thank you so mauch for those who take the time to reply. It is so lovely to feel others really do understand. Even talking to it all with my closest friend is not the same as "talking" with people who are going through pretty much the same. DP about to walk in, so a glass of sherry is to hand (for me!!) and computer goes off (not that he would have any objections to my using this site. As far as he is concerned I can do/ask/say whatever I want if it is going to help me to cope with what he has done. I do love him dearly and although he has been a shit, I hate to see his sooo upset. He is a broken man at the minute, and whilst part of me enjoys seeing him suffer, part of me hates it. I think that we've both neglected our relationship for years and it's taken this for us both to realise how much we love each other.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 01/02/2011 18:52

There are lots of people for whom this has happened in RL too, OP. It's just that like you, people rarely talk about it. The value of this site therefore is that you will hear from people who have undergone the same trauma and can truly empathise with how you might be feeling.

It is entirely possible to have a stronger relationship post-affair. However, I cannot stress enough how important it is not to sieze on what appears to be the most obvious cause of this affair, because IME, there are usually far more contributory factors than relational difficulties and sometimes affairs happen when there is no discord whatsoever.

It is essential that you co-construct a shared understanding of why this happened, but if you decide on the wrong cause, the problem is that it could happen again. You might also be buying into the "prevention myth" which is that a happy, satisfying relationship would have prevented this happening and sadly, that really isn't the case. It can feel comforting to you in your current position if you feel that the fidelity in your marriage can be controlled somehow by how you act, but it cannot.

The only fidelity any of us have control over, is our own.

So, however tempting, don't fall into that trap and do keep posting. And buy that book!

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 19:05

You are already getting excellent advice and getting a lot from the site, so I just want to pop in wish you both luck in getting your marriage back on track.

Welcome to MN x

Stick around, there is some fun to be had too Smile

nje3006 · 02/02/2011 09:12

arkmh there is definitely hope for some marriages after affairs. But as WWIFN says, you both have to understand how it happened and how you got there. Otherwise you're at risk for it happening again. He might feel devastated at the moment but if this doesn't really get looked at, that will pass and the problems that led to this will still be there.

I also hope you get the book. Recovery from an affair doesn't end just b/c he has been caught and is sorry - that's just the beginning.

vole3 · 02/02/2011 14:52

Just wanted to add about the Shirley Glass book - it is currently out of print, but still available via Amazon (my copy has been dispatched.....).
Also have checked the Norfolk & Suffolk libraries catalogues, but they do not have it.

You are not alone in this situation, and reading all of the posts, it seems neither am I.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 02/02/2011 15:00

Here is a link to the Shirley Glass site and the introduction to the book

loves2cycle · 02/02/2011 17:11

I'm sorry you're in this situation. You must be devastated.

If you have trouble getting hold of the Glass book, PM me and I'll post you my copy. I could post it to an office/work address. It could really be very eye opening for you both. My DH and I have both read it after he had an emotional affair with someone he worked with, and still has to work with and it helped enormously.

I sent a copy to my SIL who was in recovery after her DH's affair - they have stayed together and seem to have worked things out but if she has a wobble, she will go back to the book, re-read certain chapters and that really seems to help her regain her strength.

arkmh · 02/02/2011 18:37

Thank you all so much for your posts. Hardly get time to post so snatch at odd moments. Boys now getting frisky so must go!! That book seems a must and all of your advice is so gratefully received. I fear that the motives behind an affair are go far deeper than I'd initially thought and I must not necessarily jump to the wrong conclusions or it's likely that we'll address the wrong problem.

OP posts:
accidentwiththehairdye · 02/02/2011 19:49

The Shirley Glass book is also now available as a Kindle download from Amazon. If you don't have a kindle you can download a "Kindle for PC" free from Amazon then just read it on your computer.

vole3 · 04/02/2011 13:50

My book turned up today and already I have got to page 190....

Much better than the Relate book 'After the Affair'. The relate book feels more of a text book, but the Glass book puts things into much more easily read language and is structured in such a way that you can dip in and out of it. The exercises / questionnaires also seem to be better focussed, for me at any rate.

We will be working through it together and I can imagine that if we do manage to get things back on track, it will be a support in the future.

Best wishes

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/02/2011 15:01

It's the best book on the market IMO Vole. One of the worst is the Relate book...Sad.

Glad you're enjoying it. Happy to talk about aspects of it too, as I think it can sometimes take a few readings to understand its every message. Smile

arkmh · 04/02/2011 17:17

I am definitely going to try to get a copy of the book. The thing that I'm finding particulary difficult is that so many people feel so differently about affairs, and the advice is often so contractictory. I hope that I am right to think that the only person who can truly know whether our relationship stands a chance is me/us. When I read some posts it's almost as if they open another can of worms that doesn't really need opening, that I'm being encouraged to look at things in a completley different way. It almost feels like too much advice is distracting me from thinking and acting in a way that comes naturally to me. No 2 situations are the same and no 2 people are the same and I feel that if I compare my situation to that of another and perhaps think/act in a slightly different way than I would have done then it complicates things. The truth is that although I'm devastated by my DP having an affair, I have come so close myself to starting something inappropriate with other men in the past and I've often yearned for the excitement of something new. I know that I've always stopped myself, and that's the difference, but I honestly don't know if I would have gone further if the situations had been different. I can see the situation from his point of view so clearly. He was in the right place (business trip abroad, just the 2 of them, late night meals, alcohol etc) at the right time and would I have been able to turn down the temptation? I really don't know. He has not been enjoying a physical relationship with me for years (and years) and was really missing it, he'd told me so often how important and kiss and cuddle was to him, and that sex would be the icing on the cake. He had used the words so often "we could be so good together" meaning that the only thing lacking was a physical relationship and was kind of deaf to his words. The warning signs were all there and I really thought that if one of us was going to stray, it would be me. I even thought that if he had strayed then at least it would take the pressure off me in terms of sex, and that I could be quite open minded about it since it was the only thing missing in our relationship but when it actually came to him with someone else it was a huge wake up call, that I can't live without him, that he is too good to lose, and that I should have made much more of an effort to listen to him regarding his need for love and affection. I am still not excusing him for what he has done. I am a mess and he has hurt me so much. But he is devastated seeing how much hurt he has caused. He hasn't slept properly for 6 months (I thought that he had just been more stressed out about his significant work load than usual)and he keeps crying. In 23 years I've only seen him crying once, when his Mum died. The after effects of an affair are not all about me, and how dreadful my DP is, and how damaged our relationship must be/must have been for this to happen. I do feel so much for him. He is selfish, which he has accepted, and there are aspects of him that he needs to look closely at but he is a very decent sort, he has a good soul, everyone likes him and he wouldn't harm a fly, but he screwed up, BIG TIME, and surely I should have it in my heart to forgive him. He made the right decision, to stay with me and our DC, and he knows that now. He was just lacking something that he believed was so fundamental to a relationship (a bit of warmth, and sex every now and again) and when the opportunity arose for him to have a bit of love (albeit from someone else) he took it. Of course, that's wrong, but understandable, a bit, isn't it??? This is waht I'm battling with. I feel that I want to punish him, to make him feel my hurt, but that's cruel. He knows how crap he's been. I play a part in this and I need to address the issue of my physical coldness towards him. I really think that we just got out of the habit of touching/cuddling and then eventually the sex was lost too. I need to break the trend and get back into the habit of a quick shag every now and again!

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 04/02/2011 18:15

It's early days for you and I understand your confusion about the advice you may have been given.

One of the reasons I think you'll find the book helpful is because its general philosophy accords with yours. That good people have affairs and that it doesn't have to define someone as a "bad" person, as long as that person learns from the experience, works on the various vulnerabilities and commits never to hurt or deceive people again.

As a general principle, I agree that affairs are about expressing a yearning for something, but that either the yearned-for thing cannot be met in the marriage (secret sex with someone new) or cannot be expressed within the marriage (feelings of dissatisfaction, temptations, the need for a separate adventure).

The couple who can talk about the challenges of monogamy and admit their difficulties (if any) and can take risks about disclosing the real extent of their dissatisfactions, crushes that might occur or their need for unthreatening time out from one another, tend to protect their marriage from this sort of crisis.

I can see why it seems obvious to you both that your H didn't feel his needs for affection and sex were being met, he expressed them and then gave up and found that elsewhere, are the reasons for this affair. However, I suspect it is rather more complex than that, evidenced in part from what you say in your last post.

You say that you thought it more likely that you would be unfaithful of the two of you. I want you to think why that was - and what needs you felt were being unmet for you that drove you to that conclusion? One of the best things you can do as a couple is to talk about how both your needs are going to met in this new relationship. I'd hazard a guess that you will find that your needs were being unmet hugely and for some time.

The really important question I want you to consider too is that although I understand your rationale that your H took affection from the first person to offer it and that he wouldn't have done so, had he been getting that need met at home is this:

If getting affection and love from you was what he wanted, why did he not come to you and tell you about the OW before things went too far?

Now, that might seem an obvious and silly question, because of course the reason is that he wanted to go ahead with this exciting new adventure and telling you would have prevented that, but your P needs to be searingly honest with himself - and you - about whether he would have accepted the opportunity to have this adventure, regardless of feeling undesired.

That can be a difficult hypothesis, because he cannot know this with certainty unless he can think of times when he had a similar opportunity, but turned it down because he had no need of it.

I'm guessing that your P has been having some mid-life reckonings and feelings that all the adventures in life were over. Then along came the chance to feel alive and young again and since in many 23-year relationships, people's partners are not on their best behaviour and gushing about how desirable one is, the effect of hearing all this from someone new and attractive was like a bomb detonating.

This might have had the same effect even if your relationship was sexual and nurturing, because you had become familiar and comfortable.

Now, I'm sure that the lack of sex and affection were easy justifications for your H to make to himself at the time and are typical of a basically decent person who needs to find a valid reason for doing something he believed to be fundamentally wrong, but the strange thing is that people are having similar affairs, even when their primary relationship is sexual and affectionate. The common demoninators however are the length of the primary relationship, the age of the unfaithful party, mid-life reckonings and a feeling of being old and out of potential.

I want you to think about what that suggests, have a read of the excellent book and learn from what she says about taking a holistic approach to infidelity, because although evidently there were relational problems in your case, it is likely that there were also some individual vulnerabilities and given your P's job and travel, some lifestyle vulnerabilities too.

If you both want to prevent this happening again (and not just by the absence of opportunity) it makes sense to look at the whole picture - and not just the failings in your former relationship.