Is this normal following separation or am I losing my mind?

[wonderingifthisisit]

I posted last year about my marriage, and a number of you were very helpful. I attributed our problems at the time to my husband being "emotionally distant". He might well be, but as it turned out, it was much simpler. He didn't care about me, didn't care about saving our marriage (although he wouldn't leave - I had to force him to do that) and the past few years of being treated with cold indifference has left me a complete mess.

I know there is a process to go through, like grief, but I can't work out how much what I am feeling is just normal and how much I am now totally messed up and, if so, what kind of help I need.

I have become incredibly anxious over the past year or so. Specifically about seeing people I know, extended family etc. I dislike walking down the street (it's a small area where I live - I see people I know all the time). I dislike leaving the house. But I have two children so obviously need to, and do so when I can't avoid it. But this has contributed a lot to me gaining weight as I feel too selfconscious to go for a walk or a swim. Which obviously has a compounding effect. But the anxiety came before the weight gain, IYKWIM.

At the same time, other people see me as very assertive and self confident. I quit my job which had left me very isolated (and was contributing to my anxiety) and am about to start a new one which is actually very senior. I am studying and doing well. I have many friends and when I force myself to leave the house, I engage and laugh and, well, I guess I hide it.

I think the anxiety stems from the fact that I am incredibly embarrassed of the fact that my marriage breakdown confirms what I have always known - I am unloveable. I feel stupid for writing that. I do know I have people in my life who care for me (my parents, siblings, friends) but I'm just not loveable and I feel incredibly selfconscious about this. And while I could hide behind a rubbish marriage before (see? someone must love me, I'm married), now it's all out in the open.

I think I've done really well to survive the last few years of my marriage and to ensure stability for my kids, and to maintain a career and friendships. But those apparently closest to me, my husband through this time, my parents etc say nothing positive about those things, and in fact thought they would just point I had got fat, in case I hadn't noticed. And all thought I should stay in my job, because what else would I do?

My parents always described me as a child who didn't like hugs. I don't know if that's true, but it became a truth in our family. My exH never said nice things about my appearance, or any nice things about me at all, except my intellect. I don't think I have any accurate reflection of my self, my worth, my appearance etc.

Am I completely screwed up? Or just suffering the normal lapse in confidence after a lousy marriage and then separation? Do I just need time? Or professional help? If so, what kind?

I don't think you are screwed up. And I doubt that you are unloveable. It sounds to me like you are an incredibly capable individual who has been very unlucky in her husband and who's parents seem to have taken an odd tack (FFS, what kid doesn't need hugs from time to time?).

As to what you should do, I'm not sure. It very easy for someone remote like me to say, get out & exercise, don't be afraid of going out & most of all that the end of your marriage is not something to be ashamed of. But I think you can tell yourself all of those things anyway, can't you?

And you should definitely value your intellect more highly than your appearance. Its worth more.

Oh and I meant to add an un-mumsnetty too.

OP I feel you may be on the brink of (a mild ?)depression
The reason I am saying this is because there is so much good in your life but you do not seem to see it
I shall spell it out for you

1. People see you assertive and confident
2. People in life care for you
3. You know you have done well to survive your bad marriage
4. You have ensure stability to your kids

I think it is also very revealing you are looking/enquiring with your parents about your childhood

You might find it useful to speak to GB and get referred to counselling or a behaviour- therapist to start with

Do you like yoga? It would be good if you could "treat" yourself to that

Oh I ahd an hug too
I do not know what this un mumsnetty hugs are really so I just send you one of mine

YOu have self-esteem issues, definitely. These may have led you to choose a H who took advantage of them; but it has no bearing on whether or not you are loveable in general.

If you are finding your life quality is suffering because of your negative thoughts and feelings, and you want to do something about it, I would recommend you see an NLP therapist (neuro-linguistic programming). It sounds as though you have been "programmed" from a young age to assume that people don't want to hug you or have intimate contact with you, and you have absorbed from this that you are unloveable [unhuggable] - NLP can fix this. I call it (jokingly) brain washing because it washes the brain clean of all the crap that brings us down, and replaces the crap thoughts and behaviours with shiny new ones that are beneficial and positive influences in our lives.

If you want any more info on NLP, please PM me - am happy to help in any way I can.

In the meantime - am very glad that you have got yourself out of the situation you were in - it was soul-destroying. You have achieved great things - you will continue to do so and this anxious period is just a blip - this too will pass. You are strong enough to haul yourself back into the game - but you might need a bit of help, and NLP can offer that helping hand if you want it.

I think I remember you posting and I am glad you have got rid of such an unkind man in your life.

It sounds like a mixture of things holding you back. You must have felt unworthy of love to have put up with the way your XH treated you for so long. And now you are feeling ashamed because your marriage has failed.

So your mission is to be very kind to yourself and work on rebuilding your sense of being a person who deserves love and appreciation.

I agree with JFTO that is not coincidence that you are questioning your parents and the effect of your childhood. It sounds as though now might be the time to treat yourself to a course of psychotherapy with a BACP to look at these issues. Also to devote some time to looking after yourself. A healthy eating and exercise plan so that you begin to love yourself. Time with friends who appreciate the real you, not just the confident assertive front you show the world.

And now I am going to take my own advice and go to the gym and try to lose some of the 1 stone I have put on since leaving my marriage!

Your post made me feel so sad.
You know the old adage - nobody will love you till you love yourself?

It doesn't sound like you have particularly loving parents, they seem a bit critical and unemotional towards you, and then it looks like you picked a husband who was just like them, so it's confirmed the view that you have of yourself. And because of that you are ignoring all the people who do really care for you: siblings, friends, your children? Don't they love you? You know that's a hell of a lot more love than lots of people in this world. Can you talk to your siblings or your parents and tell them how you feel? They might be really shocked.

I do think some counselling would help - if for no other reason than you are creating a 'front' and hiding behind it. Wouldn't it be good to really tell someone how you feel and work out why? I think you should go and talk to your GP or just find a counsellor. I wouldn't want this anxiety to worsen and if you don't get help it might do. You have a lot on your plate and I think you need some more support.

You seem a bit afraid of asking for help from your friends, or admitting that you feel scared. It's OK to be scared. If you admit to people that you are having a hard time, most of them won't judge you, in fact most people will show compassion. The few that do judge, well they've showed themselves up as not really worthy of any of your time. I think if you are acting as if you can cope with everything and ignoring/avoiding people, they will probably think you are a fine, or even a bit stand-offish, and won't warm to you as much as if you admit to a few weaknesses. Give it a go. Pick a friend or a neighbour you like and tell them that you've been really struggling. What's going to happen? Is the world going to collapse?

If it's practical advice you need, well obviously exercise. How about joining a weight watchers type group, you'd all be in the same boat? Or getting a private fitness instructor if you could afford it? You will feel so much better once you start getting fit again - I promise you that.

If you can't bear talking to people when you go out, put your headphones on and listen to music. Just smile and wave. Find some music you love and that makes you happy and lose yourself in it.

We're all rooting for you. Don't be hard on yourself. Getting divorce is huge. I don't know anybody who comes through it without a whole lot of soul searching and pain - but it can all be worth it, if it sets you on the right track again.

Life is just starting for you - new job, wonderful kids, no crap man!

Sorry if this is rambling, hope something I've said has helped.

You are all so lovely. And I do appreciate the hugs!

You're right. I do need to stop pretending I'm fine with my friends. They would help. And it sounds like it's a combination of therapy, time and being good to myself. My self-esteem is terrible, I know. And I worry a lot I'm becoming the same critical, unemotional parent to my eldest in particular, so it's a cycle I need to break.
I actually tend to describe my parents as wonderful and supportive, but I'm starting to realise it's not actually that healthy a relationship. So it's been interesting to read all your thoughts there.
I will look into the therapy options around me. I quite like the idea of some positive brain washing!
And I think I will enrol in some exercise classes or something that is at a set time with a friend so I won't hide away instead of going.
Thanks again. And, yes, I'm pleased to have that unkind man out of my house too. Incredibly pleased, which is partly why I am now getting upset with myself for not making the most of my new life ahead.

You sound like me, sweetie. I know all of my self esteem issues stem from my childhood. On the outside, I have an enviable life. On the inside, I am terrified.

As someone said above, you need to learn to love yourself. I ended my horrible 13 year relationship in a similar sounding scenario to yours. I then actually found a wonderful man, my DH, but I find it hard to believe in his love because I do see myself as unlovable; which is what was drilled into me by my parents (no hugs or affection either, and a lot of emotional abuse).

Counselling has helped a lot. I'm reading a lot as well, about how an unloving childhood impacts on one's adult relationships and sense of self. The books I'm reading are really helping me to see myself differently, not as an unlovable, inadequate, fuck up; instead, as someone who did not receive proper parenting, but has still done remarkably well in life. I'm patting myself on the back and telling myself I'm doing alright. I'm trying to break the cycles of abuse and victimhood that started in childhood and have manifested itself in a myriad of different ways and relationships over the years, personal and professional. This is having a positive knock on effect vis a vis my DH and DCs, they get a happier, more positive and confident me. I can see toxic people for what they are and cut them out without agonising about them. That includes my parents.

"Toxic Parents", by Susan Forward,
"Why you and your mother can't be friends", by Victoria Secunda,
"The drama of the gifted child", by Alice Miller,

all illuminating reads.

And do get back in the pool and sod what everyone else thinks, be good to yourself.

Un-MN hug from me too x

Do go and see your GP, and get some counselling. Do get some exercise in whatever sunshine there is, it really does help. (The middle of nowhere is fine, you just do need sun on your skin.)
Why not make some targets for each week. So have coffee with one person, 1/2 hour outside each day etc.

I don't know what age your kids are, but maybe its worth trying to make sure you have a hug with each, and tell each of them that you love them everyday. (My gruff 15 year old really appreciates it, even if it has to be in secret, and all he can say to "I love you" is "you too".)

Good luck with the new job!

Funny how you read some posts and they feel as though you could have written them yourself.

Reluctanthomosapien pretty much sums up what I think too.

If you can get some person centered counselling (as opposed to short term CBT) it may do wonders. My personal opinion is that how you connect and feel about your counsellor has more impact on your journey than qualifications or experience.

I've read Toxic Parents and Why You and Your Mother Can't be Friends and they are eye openers. I would also put The Road Less Travelled - M Scott Peck, Women Who Run With the Wolves - Clarissa Pinkola Estes and the book abour fathers that Victoria Secunda wrote on your list too.

For me the journey of self discovery started a few years ago after becoming so fed of hating myself. It has been a long and painful journey but punctuated with moments of clarity that have illuminated me and I would never go back to that dark place of self hatred again. During the last few years I've lost a sister, my partner and the blinkers have finally come off about my parents and how I had painfully adapted myself for their love but still I feel so much better about myself and my life. Times will be tough OP but I doubt in the long run they will be as tough as they are now in your mind.

If I could sum up what I think it all boils down it is the conflict of:-

Who we really are (and only we can answer that) versus what others want us to be.

I wish you all the best.

Just wanted to say - I have had person-centred counselling and it was great - but NLP works much faster and has deeper effects, IME.
But you need something to help you see that you have been damaged by your parents' attitudes to you when you were little and this has given you an ingrained lack of belief in your worthiness of love. You can change it, that's the good news.

We are all programmed to love our parents. Even children with the most incredibly abusive parents will defend them to the hilt to start with.

I also had to reassess my relationship with my Mum. She was incredibly critical of me and never gave me any praise. I think I only realised how fucked up it was when I had my DD. But it feels incredibly disloyal to admit that your parents actually were pretty crap at bringing you up. Counselling really helped me, but it was very hard - you have to be prepared to cry your eyes out for one hour a week!

I was determined to break the cycle, and I believe I have. So for that, if nothing else, I am incredibly proud of myself.

Give your eldest a big hug tonight - and maybe confide in him/her.

You sound lovely (and absolutely loveable) wondering.

Anxiety is really horrible isn't it? If you're really struggling with that you can get help from the GP.

Two things I've also found particularly useful are this website:
www.nomorepanic.co.uk/ which gives lots of helpful advice and resources for dealing with anxiety. Particularly the section on symptoms - just understanding that symptoms of anxiety are just a reaction to an overworked nervous system may actually help put your mind at rest a bit!

And this book that I've seen recommended on here a lot called Self-help for your nerves by Dr Claire Weekes - though it's written from the point of view of someone suffering a nervous breakdown it's aimed at anyone with anxiety. It describes a simple way of overcoming anxiety by facing and accepting the problem rather than trying to escape it and that in itself seems to help a great deal. I'm only half way through it and I already feel miles better than I did a couple of weeks ago.

Your parents were wrong in what they said. My mother also comes out with crap about how my sister didn't want to be cuddled when she was a baby. In fact my mother had a real problem with her and has treated her like a scapegoat her whole life to avoid dealing with her own issues. Not my sister's fault in any way but I'm sure she has similar beliefs about not being loveable.

Good luck with it all and hopefully one day (if you want to) you'll meet someone who'll be lucky and know how lucky they are to be with you.

I was in this eact same situation a year ago. Cold, moody H had just moved out, I was fat, I was fed up.

I used to look at women with their DHs and think, "Why does she get to keep her husband and I don't? What's wrong with ME??"

Now I feel awesome! What I did was have my cousin move in with me fo a while (she's 10 years younger than me and hilarious), go on a diet and join a gym. I've lost 4 stone and look fantastic! It's SO FUNNY seeing how annoyed exH is about that.

For me (this might sound weird), it wasn't enough that I told people I was happy and coping, I had to actually look like I was happy and coping. So I lost weight, ditched the old frumspter clothes, started regular beauty nights and just reinvented myself from the outside in.

Just my experiences! It gets a lot easier every day though, really.

Christ, how annoying do I sound in that post?? I'm quite ashamed of myself.

Beautiful - you sound great. Really pleased for you. I think it's what wondering needs to hear.

Just to deal with one point. I was very anxious for a long time after my H left. I think it must be the reaction to the upset and shock of it all. I think it is perfectly natural.

And yes I had the lack of praise and affection growing up. SO would echo the others saying to work on yourself. I have and it has been really worthwhile and I feel much happier.

Good luck!

beautiful you don't sound annoying. You sound like I want to be. Thank you for your story.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by your advice and kind words to be honest. I think because I've done quite well in my life, externally anyway, that I thought I couldn't really have serious problems. But the episodes of selfloathing and doubt are now coming so close together there is nothing in between. And I'm feeling unraveled. Everything you are all saying rings true.

When I quit my job, my colleagues all said I would have no trouble finding a new one. I applied for two, and heard nothing for 2 weeks. I just about collapsed. The only thing I have left to pin my self esteem on is my work, and I was failing at that too. Everyday that past I sunk further and couldn't see anyone, spent most of it crying or beating myself up. As it turned out I got offered both jobs. And straight away I was fine again. Well, for a few days anyway until the next blow. I know this can't go on.

Thank you for all the book recommendations. I will explore those.
Malinky the no panic website is great. I can't describe how it feels to see my thoughts and thought processes laid out in front of me.

I have an event tomorrow with family I am dreading going to. But I need to, and I'm going to read everything I can before then to give me a boost. I will think seriously about having an honest conversation with my parents too. And I will find suitable therapy.

My children, by the way, are 3 and 6. I tell them I love them everyday and that get hugs and kisses throughout. I do struggle with my eldest (a girl) a little more though. I know it's horrible, but I was extremely worried about having a girl as, although I'd never explored it, I just had a preference for a boy to avoid the highly critical slightly dysfunctional eldest daughter relationship I have with mine. Well I got a daughter, and it turns out I am failing her in exactly I same way. I can't seem to stop myself. She is praised, but also crticised a lot by me. I need to find a way to reconnect with her in a more positive way. I guess I probably need to fix myself at the same time.

Oh, goodness, *Wondering", I'm wondering if you are in fact me! I have exactly the same issues with my daughter. Please get hold of the Victoria Secunda book, so much will make sense to you.

And you sound, like me, to be a classic over-achiever. Was that the only way you got any praise/feeling of value from your parents, except, what you did was never enough so you kept on pushing yourself and achieving but never feeling you were good enough?

Pinning all self esteem on a career - like me, do you feel like you're hiding your true self behind the work persona? So you panic if you don't do something perfectly, or lose/leave a job because then, your true self is exposed? Except it's not your true self, it's the vile, unlovable fuck up person you were led to believe you were. Your true self is buried down deep in there, she needs a little help coming out.

It's one of life's jokes that toxic parents can get away with what they did because, "well, we must have done something right, look what you've achieved". When the over-achievement was about trying to gain their love when it wasn't just offered unconditionally; we are filling the gaping, aching hole inside with the career and external kudos, because we never learned to just love ourselves, we need the external prop to hold up our self esteem.

Sorry, am rambling. Try to just get through the family event, then please get some help with this. Best of luck to you.

wondering, I hope you see this before you go to see your family.

By all means try and have an honest conversation with them but be prepared for them to turn it all back on you, refute any suggestion that they have in any way caused any of your problems, and scoff at any need for therapy that you might have. In fact, I would suggest that you keep quiet about seeking therapy as they will see it as a sign of weakness and failure (which it absolutely is NOT) and probably use it as another stick to beat you with (IME).

Regarding your DD - I think if you can read up on NLP and positive framing, you might find it helpful in your dealings with your DD as well. Things like always making sure you blame the behaviour instead of the person, always using positive language instead of negatives, and the "feedback sandwich" (say something nice, say the critical bit if necessary, then say something nice again) - it does make a difference.

You are, however, doing a better job than your parents already BECAUSE you are worried that you are doing a similar job to them - you are recognising that there are things you would prefer to change, bet your parents never worried about that. And you are already spending more time telling your DC that you love them every day and hugging them.

Remember that your parents are the people they always have been - and keep strong in the face of any criticism that comes your way today.
You are a great person and a fantastic loving mother - ignore anyone who tells you different!

I agree with thumbdabwitch about the possible reaction of your parents. We all see the world in our own unique way and it is very likely that your view is very from theirs. I tried to have an honest conversation with my parents but was disappointed and to be honest I realise with hindsight that it was never about needing to have an honest conversation with them, it was about me giving myself permission to believe my own version of events as they unfolded to me. For me, and this has taken a few years, I now speak my truth as I feel it and don't feel I need to tow the family PR line. It is hard because I can see it hurts them but it is my truth and I suffer more when I go along with what they think. It is what I mean when I said it all boils down to who you are -v- what others want you to be.

I have no experience of NLP and it does sound helpful but I would also suggest you find someone to explore the root causes of the childhood issues as a way to understanding where you find yourself today.

As Socrates said 'Know thyself'

thumbdawitch and WADA you've both given me a lot to think about. I had forgotten that when I was about 19 I got depressed and sought medical help. My father made me leave home because he wouldn't allow me to "wallow and lie around the house feeling sorry for myself". I was both studying and working at the time. I left and we have never talked about it. An honest conversation now is not likely to go any better is it? I appreciate the good points you've made here. I won't head down that route.
Another poster suggested I overachieve for my parent's approval. In fact my parents don't value educational or career achievements. They never acknowledged mine while growing up, and were always telling me to stop studying, Cs were adequate, and that being sociable was more important. I did well despite them not because of them. Even now they're always asking when I'm going to stop studying and have expressed dismay at our plans to send our children to better than average schools.
In reality, I always had plenty of friends and was not actually very extreme in my study habits, but I know they would have preferred me to be less bright, more sunny, and prefer a glass of wine and a good time. They would certainly prefer I was unhappily (but socially acceptably) married than separated. It's just me being me - proving a point, not doing what I should do.
I was struck by the poster who mentioned a line "no one will love you until you love yourself" because I always thought life was more like that song "You're nobody 'til somebody loves you". I had kind of taken that to heart as one of life's truths.
I suspect it's just one of many things I have gotten wrong. I had also, until posting this, never clicked that not one person in the world knows me. They all each know a part, but not the whole. And the one person I tried to tell - my husband - rejected me. He refused to love me, told me I was mad and should look into why I felt this great need for intimacy, that it wasn't part of marriage, that he wouldn't provide it (but wouldn't leave), that he was too tired to listen to any if my problems, that I was a financial handbrake on his plans, but berated me and called me cold and unfeeling if I didn't provide him with unconditional love and support.
I have good friends who deserve to know the whole me.
I got out of the family event. I couldn't face it. I know I should be going, but I need to think and get help first. You've all given me so much to think about. It was too soon to cope with it. I am a coward, but on the upside, I have been lovely to my DD since reading your replies, and she has responded wonderfully. Maybe I haven't screwed her up completely yet.

You are not a coward (all that negativity towards yourself! Stop it now!), you are very brave.

You have taken the courageous step to face up to all your problems and not hide from them.

You've got rid of frankly a manipulative and abusive partner who was dragging you down.

You got an education and career, despite all the negative comments from your family. You made a success of that through your hard work. You got offered 2 new jobs! That must be some impressive CV you've got there.

You love both your children and are prepared to learn and question yourself in order to give them the best possible upbringing and more love than you've ever known.

I have a negative voice in my head - the critical parent, if you like, who tells me I'm stupid when I do something wrong, or lazy when I procrastinate etc. etc. The way I've learnt to deal with it, is to give it a horrible little ogre face, make it say the words to me again, and then I tell it to fuck off and put it in a box and lock it.

I know it sounds mad, but it works for me.

Have a lovely weekend.

"I suspect it's just one of many things I have gotten wrong."

No, no, no! Sounds like despite all your setbacks (NOT your fault), you've got an awful lot right! Agree with Belle, stop all the self-criticism. You're ok you know.

I agree about not talking to your family about counselling etc - they are unlikely to understand and will probably just make you feel bad about it.