I feel compelled to lie to H about money

[sushiknife]

Backstory here:

H makes a good salary, great against national average, not amazing against salaries where we live and in the industry he's in. But a good salary.

We have three DCs, 2 school age and 1 pre-school. The youngest is disabled and I am caring for him full-time.

DH is a bit... 'unconcerned' about money. He always had plenty as a single guy, then he moved in with me and DS1 and paid the rent but still had plenty (I was earning too and we'd been doing fine beforehand so his salary was 'extra' money). He bought a property at the height of the market on some bad advice (buy to let sort of thing); we had a terrible time last year including H thinking he might have to go bankrupt (a property gamble), which meant we had to reassess our finances totally and some stuff came out which shocked me a bit. He gave me access to his accounts and I found out some stuff which alarmed me.

Like a bill for a storage locker, regular outgoing - total of SEVEN GRAND to store three whiteboards and some boxes of his long-ago ex's stuff (she went back to her home country and he 'forgot' about the locker etc).

His card was cloned and he didn't claim back all the fraudulent transactions because he 'didn't look back far enough'. This was years ago, discovered it while going through old statements chasing some savings.

The rent from the tenants in his property covered the outgoings, he was always very clear on that (and said it was the one good thing about rubbish interest rates), he always cited that as a reason not to sell the property (we can't buy a place for ourselves until we get rid of it, we'd make a small loss if we sold now), but I recently did some sums on a whim and no. Their rent covers the mortgage not the service charges or other fees; there's actually a £700pcm shortfall.

I'm a SAHM now through choice (mostly to do with DC3's issues), and just lost my last source of independent income. We're okay - sort of stuck here as we can't afford to move, can't consider fee-paying school for the DCs to avoid the terrible comp, but okay. But I hadn't realised how much of DH's salary was getting frittered away.

He won't do anything about organising money for me, either. At the moment I buy most stuff on his credit card, that includes food, stuff for the kids, stuff for the house and stuff just for me. I want 'my' money to be more clearly deliniated as I feel weird/guilty about buying stuff for myself on H's credit card and he does make comments about it and I find myself justifying everything. We don't have/want a joint account in case the financial issue from last year returns to bite us.

We talked and talked about what a reasonable amount for me to have 'just for me' was a month and came up with a figure he grudgingly agreed to (less than I spend on me a month currently), but he won't set up a standing order or anything.

ANYWAY. My lies.

When we were going through our finances thinking H might have to go bankrupt, I did not remind him about £15k I have in NI bonds in my name. I told him about them at the time (a gift from my granddad before he passed away), and have mentioned them since but not recently and not since the financial problems. I didn't want to give the money to H and have it vanish into his bankruptcy, which seems reasonable enough to me, but I didn't tell him about it at all.

And this week, a friend of mine I gave £3k to some years ago (long story but it represented an investment in her business which then folded, she's always felt awful about it), contacted me after her father passed away saying she wanted to repay me out of the estate. I didn't tell H about that either though I did tell him her father had died.

This is awful, isn't it.

I brought up the shortfall between what his property is costing and what he's getting back from the tenants today and he as good as put his hands over his ears and said la la la. He doesn't want to sell, fine, but he won't consider doing anything which could increase the rent either.

His salary doesn't stretch so far now there are five of us to one income and I feel guilty and conflicted and upset that I've lost my financial independence and angry and all sorts.

But I am lying to DH and I don't know what to do about that? Lying about money is one of the big warning signs of doom, isn't it?

Hmm. You're right, it is awful, but not for the reasons you seem to think. You're financially dependent on a man who a) won't give you enough money for yourself, and b) won't have sensible conversations with you about your family income. It's not his money, it's all of yours.

The 'lies' you've told sound like very sensible measures of self-protection, imo. I wouldn't consider bringing up those bits of cash you mentioned, at least not until you're an equal decision-making partner in the relationship.

Actually, even then it doesn't hurt to have a back up plan. You never know when you might need one.

I'm going to go hmmm as well.

If your H was upfront about all his outgoings (which he wasn't) and on the ball with where his money is going (which he isn't) then I would say that you are being unreasonable not to tell him.

But - since he seems a touch profligate and also won't make you an "allowance" (call it what you want, I have one from my DH because I stood over him and insisted on it BUT I also made him change his account to a joint one because otherwise, if anything happens to him, DS and I would be screwed) - I think you are probably wise to keep this information from him. Have you lied to his face about it? Has he asked you if you have any funds and you have said "no"? If not, then (and I know others may not agree) you are lying by omission and that, in my book, isn't as bad as direct lying to his face.

Anyway - he does know about the bonds, he's just forgotten about them - so that doesn't count - it's just the £3k payback from your friend.

I find this area very uncomfortable myself - have only been in a non-earning position since moving abroad and don't like having to answer for whatever money I spend, hence needing the monthly "allowance". I don't spend that much - I just want to be able to do it without being quizzed about it!

This is very difficult I think. Fundamentally I agree it's NOT right to lie about it, but clearly your H has issues with money. Given his 'head in the sand' attitude, it's hard to see how he would make a distinction between a loss making asset (your rental property) and your savings. Savings are just that, SAVINGS - they are not extra money that can be used to help you get by (you can do that but you are just reducing your net worth and not sorting the problem).
In the good old days, you might have been able to rely on a bread winner to manage the finances as well as earn the crust. Doesn't seem so these days.

Sorry, this probably doesn't help, but I see the predicament you are in. The flat is losing you money every day. How much loss would you make on it of you sold it? You could try and point out how this loss equates to the monthly shortfall. Interest rates will go up sharply soon and you will be looing even more once this happens.

Re monthly allowance, I agree it's important to maintain it. I do the same for my wife for exactly the reasons you mention.

We'd lost about 10k total if we sold, which yes is loads, but it would free us up to move/buy our own place AND it would be covered in what, less than a year of the loss we're making by renting.

If it was a property we could ever live in (it's too small and in a dodgy area of London), I'd understand why he doesn't want to sell. I have made the point about the rates but he just doesn't want the hassle. It drives me mad and just seems so disrespectful as I lose sleep over all this and he doesn't think about it unless I make him, and never does anything.

He seems more ameanable to doing up the kitchen and bathrooms and trying to sell it then(!?) - I am fairly sure he is hoping it will magically be worth what he thought it would be when he bought at the height of the market thinking property prices could only ever go up.

The 'allowance' issue upsets me a lot. He says well, you buy whatever you want and spend whatever you want on my cards. And TBH I probably do spend more than I need to - often buying stuff online then returning it, clothes especially, as it's hard to get to the shops with disabled DS.

But he gets to see everything I buy, everything, and he doesn't police it as such but I just want some money - even if it is less money than I spend now - to be mine. For me to save up for something, or spend on whatever.

I find myself 'sneaking in' stuff - like treats for me in the ocado order or whatever. It all seems so stupid and point-scoring and honestly like it could be dangerous for our relationship; I'm not acting like an adult. But he won't let me.

I hate it all. H had years of making a massive salary for a single guy, and no outgoings (he was living with me and DS1 and we split the rent). He wasted so much money and it's hard not to take that personally.

It's really hard not to resent him for being so stubborn about this stupid flat.

I don't want to tell him about either set of money - I'm happy leaving the bonds where they are (esp now the wouldn't even cover one child's uni fees, if they wanted to go), and it was my granddad's money. The money from my friend I don't want to tell him about because I just KNOW he'll either say we can do up the kitchen on the rental place now or expect me to fritter it away on my daily expenses.

It feels like he's not considering me at all. But maybe I am being too black and white about it.

His answer is always that I should 'just get a job then'. We did have a talk about that - what sort of job (my previous line of work doesn't really exist anymore), and when, and how would we pay for DS's care.

He accepted what I was saying and seemed to have a bit of a 'lightbulb moment' but when I raised the issue of an 'allowance' again nothing has changed.

Are you struggling???

IMHO if you are struggling, i would take the children out of private school and into state comp. - TBH i dont find any difference, some school are better than others. Im sure there are better schools that the ''terrible comp''.

than the

TimeFor - I read the OP as the DC not being in private school......

Yes sorry i misread!! (twice )

I find his attitude a bit worrying - it seems as if he likes having you both dependent on him and the person he can blame if things go wrong.
Definitely don't tell him about the money; you may need it, given that he won't give you access to funds.
I do also think that you maybe need to think of a way of getting some extra income for yourself; I don't know what your line of work has been, obviously, but is there any aspect of it you could adapt to setting up some sort of small business at home? or indeed could you try something like Avon or Bettaware (these don't bring in very much but you can totally pick your own hours and it could be a case of you having just a little extra to squirrel away.)
TBH a joint account would be a bad idea as this man is either utterly useless with money, or he is using money to exert some sort of control over you and you genuinely need money of your own for emergencies.

Well I couldn't live with someone who had his attitude to money quite frankly. I couldn't respect someone like that. Esp someone who acts so childishly about it.

So. If you are to change it you need to sit down and talk to him and he needs to let you handle the finances if he is not willing to.

One. You make a decision about the flat. Either the rent is increased to properly cover the costs OR it is sold. They are his choices. And then you give him a timeline of when it needs doing by. If he doesn't want the hassle of doing it then you will have to.

Two. You have a bank account of your own and he either gives you the cash every month to put in or sets up a DD.

And three - I wouldn't tell him about the money you have either. No way.

I've namechanged for this too.

I did the same thing. I inherited some money (not a huge sum, 4 figures).

My now ex was in financial difficulty of his own making, and I decided that the money was my buffer as I didn't think we would last very long anyway. It was about a year later that I left and that money was essential to get myself and my children set up in our new house. I spent it all (and more), but now I am no longer with 'piss it against the wall' ex, in the following year I have managed to save half that amount. It would not have happened if I was still with my financially irresposible ex.

It sounds like you need something that is yours as a buffer - I am not saying that you are going to leave him, but if, for example, he ends up being bankrupt or decides to get arsey about money etc then at least that is yours for the family and it has not been spent in his desire to try and keep going regardless.

You are losing 700 quid a month on the flat?! The mortgage on our family home is less than that! That's over eight grand a year!

You say "he just doesn't want the hassle" of selling - could you make it your 'job' to sell the flat? Either set a budget to do it up, and project manage that (this doesn't sound feasible if your finances aren't the best) or you can take on responsibility of dealing with estate agents? He may agree to that, if it's just the hassle that's putting him off....

Similarly with setting up the direct debit to your account; go into the bank/download the forms, fill in all the details and the amount and just present them for his signature. Sounds like he just doesn't want to deal with money issues at all.

And NO WAY should you tell him about your other money!!

We have been talking about the flat today and he has agreed we can have it valued properly. I have said I will sort it. Bit of a faff as will need to take DS and (of course!) DH has lost his set of keys for the property - security keys so takes time to replace - so we'll need to do it when a tenant is in. But not insurmountable.

I can probably MAKE him do what needs doing, but I wish I didn't have to make him if you see what I mean? And lying to him even by omission feels like it doesn't bode well for the marriage?

Well to be honest the sheer fact that you have to make him do what is as obvious as the nose on your face doesn't bode well for the marriage let alone the hiding money.

He is acting like a child. Now either that is how he is and is happy to be and both he and you are happy for you to be the grown up in the marriage and deal with all the finances or you have some long hard thinking to do.

Can you live like that for the rest of your life?

If you can then fine. You arrange for all the financial stuff to be done by you and you carry on.

I think in principle you are right - lying about money is Not A Good Thing. But here, tbh, I wouldn't tell him about either. I think you need to sort out the other issues, like the flat, first. Then when you are more of a financial partnership you might feel more like telling him.

I'd do all the financial stuff happily - dh is the breadwinner and I'd like to feel useful in that way. But big stuff can't be done without him and he digs his heels in.

The flat, well, it's like he has a mental block - he bought it expecting it to make money and he can't believe it's not so he's going to hang on til it does (I don't think it ever will, certainly never make back what we'll've lost waiting for it to gain value).

Last year shook him badly - we went from being very solvent to facing bankruptcy and are tens of thousands down. It shook me too but he seems to freeze whenever money or change, really, is mentioned.

He's always been oddly change-averse, but it's never been such a big deal before. Maybe sorting out my 'allowance' means it's actually happening and I am palpably added to his responsibilities?

Well maybe sit down one evening and have a relaxed chat about it all. How the uncertainty and frustration makes you feel. And ask him what he feels about it all.

When DH and I first got together I used to get really tense if he asked me to help put up a picture. You know - where do you want it, is is straight, is it centered etc. I would have a huge knot in my stomach and i hated it. It took me ages to figure out that when I was growing up if my Dad did stuff like that and it went wrong (which it often did if my mother was helping!) he would go ballistic. Shouting, swearing and throwing things etc. So DH asking me to get involved took me right back there. Maybe your DH has something similar in relation to finances?

I don't blame you for lying by omission - it's not "right", and I understand your unease, but equally self-preservation is necessary at times. And I suspect a big part of why you're lying is because, as you said, you're angry at your loss of financial independence (however well you can rationalise it, if you're used to being independent and now you're not, it's going to take some adjustment) and by concealing this money you're giving yourself back some financial independence. Which is understandable.

I think you should do nothing, say nothing, re the extra money for now. Give it a time limit - 3 months or so? And then (in your head) review how you're feeling - has your DH sorted the flat mess? Has he sorted an allowance? Do you feel more secure than you do today? If yes to all, tell him then.

I think you should try posting on the Debt-Free Wannabee boards on Moneysaving Expert. You'll get a lot of people who have been in your DH's situation sharing their advice and experience, and it might help.

You need to be careful, because if he goes bankrupt, by law anything you have in sole name has to be declared. So the NI bonds for example. Get some independant advice.

If you are a fulltime carer, presumably it would cost a fair bit to replace you if you were working - so you are saving the family X amount each year. In that case it seems perfectly reasonable, imo, for you to have your own defined 'allowance' (I'd call it more of a wage/share of the family money, not something he's 'allowing' you to have).

You're right, feeling like you have to lie about money isn't a good situation to be in. But if you told him the truth it seems like he would just waste it. Would it be a case of what's his is his and what's yours is his? Where's the respect for your contribution to the household, for your voice in decisions?

Wow, thanks for your responses. Will just blurt some stuff out before bath/bedtime.

Buda we talk alllll the time. Usually instigated by me but sometimes not. When we reach a consensus (eg "yes let's get the flat valued", "you are right, we need to move quickly to avoid the rate change", "okay let's get the kitchen measured up"), then it is always me who follows through, reminds him about stuff, does everything I can (arranges appointments etc). It's okay but god I wish I didn't have to handhold him all the time

Grendel I am active on that board! Advise on what he 'should' do is all well and good, getting him to actually do it less so...

Myleetle, we've had loads of independent advice, part of why we don't have joint accounts etc. We are not financially linked and I was told that as it was business debt in DH's sole name only that my savings would not be affected.

Fortune, respect is lacking, as is feeling respected (for both of us I think); if I felt respected this wouldn't be such an issue. Though part of feeling respected is having my wishes acted on and I suppose DH is equally allowed not to do as I think he should. What I do then is up to me.

The caring aspect is fraught. On both sides admittedly. Once, a long time ago during a horrible drunken row I made the point that I save us thousands by caring for DC3 rather than working. Dh said "well you insisted we have him" (I did, we knew he would have issues while he was in utero, I refused to abort, Dh wanted me to). We were both shocked by that and he said he didn't mean it but I resent him for saying it and I know I took it 'into' myself, considering DC3's issues my responsibility. DC3 himself isn't, we share care, but care which is to do with his disability - physio etc - I do.

I don't want to bring it up again as I couldn't stand it if DH still thought that - he and DC3 are very close now, so I hope not, but who knows.

sushiknife - I am very :( reading your posts. Your H is being rather painful by the sound of it and I don't at all blame you for feeling frustrated and resentful.

My DH did voice one concern about me having my "allowance" - because I also have the credit card to buy whatever I want/need - he was worried that I would be stockpiling the money to "run away" at some point. Now, while I firmly believe in having savings for contingency plans, I have no need, wish or intention of "running away" so was really quite that he even thought that.

Perhaps your DH has some similar fear - but perhaps not either. Who knows.

Regarding the joint account - I have always believed that having both separate AND joint accounts is a good thing. Separate for savings and your "own" money, and joint for the house and general pot. In my case, I had to make DH turn his account into a joint one because DS and I are fully dependent on him in this country and if anything happened to him we would be in serious shtuck if we couldn't access his money. But I still have my separate savings account and so does he.

Your DH seems to be shying away from taking any responsibility for what happens in your relationship and the home - is that fair or not? He needs to sort that out - that attitude is deeply unattractive, I find. If you are talking all the time and nothing is changing then I suspect he has developed this attitude to your words. In which case you need to find a different way to discuss - possibly with the aid of a third party - to get things done.

Can he really not see how painful it is for you to not have that small amount of money given over to you for your private use? DH did have troubles with it too but I explained it was like having to ask for pocketmoney and I hated it - so he sorted it out (albeit with me standing over him while he did it).

Umm.. Is he a banker by any chance