He is insane

[BreakFree]

Some people know my story, been with him a few years now and gone through an awful amount of verbal and emotional abuse (control etc) the peak of which happened just before Christmas this year and I said no more. We have two DCS one of which has spn so me leaving the home is not an option due to school and therapy for my son.
Anyway, after Christmas and the spell of me avoiding him sleeping in seperate rooms putting the foot down and avoiding the trying to charm me every five minutes. He crumbled one evening into this whol "Ive benn in denial" business.
I knew at the time this would probably not last I'm not an eejit. I guess I've been trying to buy myself time in a way as I'm not quite ready to get the f-- out.Why? Well because I'm fing terrifed of the fallout to be honest. Terrifed of him.
And I am starting to realise why.
This evening a nice evening in front of the television turned into a discussion about a guy from where i used to live and how this guy had stolen my wallet or handbag and I had told him about it . I was a bit taken aback as I don't recall anyone I know ever having stolen anything belonging to me, amd I Think I would remember! HE specifically named a guy that was a friend of another and yet I still had no idea what he was talking about.
In fact the guy in question was a bit of a lunatic on the drink but totally harmless and a very good friend of my friends if you know what i mean and there was no way in hell this guy ever stole from that I wouldnt have remembered!
I said to OH that there was a guy I had been seeing for a few weeks long before I met him who I had had my suspicions about (him and his friend) when my handbag had gone missing at a party and after they had comforted me for an hour over the money and personal items I had lost (pic of my son etc) they suddenly came up with the money between them to make me feel better because "they didn't need it being single men"
I explained maybe he had heard me talk about this and got confused.
No! No I am apparently a disgusting liar and worse so because apparently I never mentioned this man that I had dated twice before I met him !!
So, after OH had ranted at me that i was obviously a LIAR and what else had I lied about I actually started to laugh. What else could I do. I mean. This is ridiculous. I can't believe I practically fell for his "I'm in denial about who I am" shit.
I can't believe I seriously think there is hope for him to be normal. This is amazingly deluded shit. If I had ever said that to him I surely would remember!

Absolute craziness. I'm glad I've a few in me right now because strangely I feel very calm in the fact that I know he is actually quite mad.

Get out now. I've not had a partner like that but I have had friends who've behaved that way. In my experience there's no way to deal with people who are delusional like that. Does he smoke a lot of skunk by any chance?

I've been in this situation with my H.

I believe its called Gaslighting. It can actually make you feel quite derranged yourself if you start to question that maybe hes right.

Its frustrating and is utterly ridiculous. I could never be sure if he was making stuff up or really believed in the delusion. I'll never know because H died.

I too was terrified and wish I'd had the strength to get out a long time ago. Bullies are generally cowards. Get yourself plenty of outside help to deal with him.

I don't understand why you are still with him. Yes I understand you are afraid. But you're a mother, this relationship will damage your children.

What more can anyone say?

If only it were easy Proud, then this message board would be empty of EA/DV threads.

Its very difficult when you are scared of someone, their unpredictable behaviour keeps the control going and It can take a long time to even realise whats going on. An abusive spouse can keep you very busy with the type of rubbish Breakfrees DP is dishing out.

Merrywidow, I know.

I've not had experience of abuse. I realised when I posted it, it was controversial and perhaps unfair. You are far more well placed than I am to help and support OP.

You know how everyone comes to these boards with their own experiences which obviously shape their responses and feelings to any one problem?

My 'thing' is parents not puttting their kids before themselves. I don't mean in some precious, put your dc before yourself/your marriage crap. I mean I get so frustrated, so angry, so upset by the enormous amount of parents who do not fully appreciate how much they could be damaging their children by their relationship/lifestyle choices. I am a 40 year old damaged child myself!!

OMG, you're married to XH's long-lost twin! He pulled exactly that kind of shit, and stepped it up massively after I told him we were definitely splitting. Picking up something I might have said 20 years ago and mixing it with something else to make a story I didn't recognise, then calling me a LIAR several times very loudly, was one of his favourites. He especially liked stories that involved other men, and dwelt a good deal on a colourful past I might have had (but, as it happens, didn't) before I met him. He'd also call me a LIAR if I changed my mind about anything, say perhaps that I used to like a certain drink but went off it, or made a mistake about when something happened. I'm a very honest person whereas he wouldn't know the truth if it bit him, so I knew I wasn't lying. On the other hand I do have a poor memory and am aware that people's perceptions of things can be different, so I was always trying to make sense of what he was saying when in fact there was no sense to be made. Doesn't half make your head spin.

If it's any consolation, he never turned violent or even particularly looked as if he would; that doesn't mean yours won't, but you don't need to assume that he will, IYSWIM. He did frighten me but only because I didn't know what he would do next. Actually my bet at the time was that one of the boys would find he'd hung himself in the garage, but needless to say that never happened either.

He was good at keeping up the "good father" act and indeed at one time had all the boys on his side. I was afraid I was going to lose them all. It had to get to the stage where I thought they would lose me anyway, I was either going to top myself or be carried away in a straitjacket, before I could accept my own decision to "split up the family". The DCs were older than yours and there were no particular local needs to take into consideration, so at least that bit was easier.

He's still wandering in and out of our lives like a lost fart, to use his own phrase, but I doubt I ever will get to the bottom of whether he was delusional or lying; whether it's more appropriate to pity or despise. Well, it doesn't matter now. Whatever is going on in his tiny mind (my brother said "strange zombie hamsters are running around on little wheels"), I don't have to live with it.

Oh, proudnscary, they play on your feelings as a mother. They present divorce as a profoundly selfish act. How wrong it is to deprive the children of a good, loving father who is so much more capable than you are. How you owe it to them to keep the family home and the facade of a solid marriage for the children's emotional and financial security. How it is your own feebleness, instability, lack of humour, over-sensitivity, you name it, which is harming them. You see it as your duty to put up and shut up as it's only you who receives the shit and you ought, as a grown-up, to be able to take it. A lot of society (and quite often the woman's own family) still agrees with this, that it's so important not to come from "a broken home", that it's the woman's job to make it work, focus on the positive and all that. And unless he's visibly browbeating the kids, you buy it.

Annie - I get you.

proud I second all the the others have said. In my case, it wasn't until I saw him beginning to try some of the same tactics on the kids that I walked. Literally hours after he lost his temper with my ds (age 4) and dd (age 5) I walked out and went straight to womens aid and safety.

breakfree the way these men treat some of us is absolutely unacceptable. I left my H 6 weeks ago but he charmed me into going back. I have now left him for good. I don't know how he managed it, but it was like I was losing my grip on reality because he was manipulating it all the time. If you asked me now why I left the first time I couldn't tell you specific examples, except that I thought he was totally irrational. I remember phoning my mum in tears dozens of times after he had lost it saying that it didn't make any sense. YOu couldn't even reason with him because none of his arguments made any sense at all it was all total crap.
Are you in contact with womens aid? They helped me so much... the first lady I spoke to on the national abuse line, I thought was a bit strong telling me I deserved better and how dare he do that to me. I came off the phone reeling a bit but now I see that it was what I needed to be told repeatedly that it's him who is wrong not me!
I got in touch with the local womens aid who were a bit less "militant" but soooooo kind. Many of them have been there themselves so they really do understand what you're going through and the support you will get will be amazing. One of the ladies there who helps me feels like a second mum to me, she is so kind and understanding !!!
It may feel very scary to leave and your partner my have portrayed the one doing the leaving as the weak one while the one who stays is some kind of saint (this is what mine did) but he's wrong. The one who has the courage to break out is the strong one.

Womens aid will help you and discuss with you the practicalities of leaving or getting rid of him if that's what you decide to do.
Be gentle with yourself, you need to reach a place where you are ready. Someone told me that the average woman leaves or tries to leave 7 times before they do it for good (not sure if thta's true).

Hope that helps
x

Hows this for insane...

My H once accused me of an affair and called a family meeting. He sat Me, his sister, my mum and the nanny who looked after our DD (?)
around the dining room table and announced that it had come to his attention that I had been having a secret and intimate affair. He had drawn up a contract which he wanted us all to consider and sign. The meeting fell apart because I sttod up and said how fucking dare he accuse me like this and hold a fucking board meeting! I never saw the contract however after he died I found it on his computer.. It was a load of waffle about my affair, how it had destabalised the marriage, how I would agree to counselling and if I didn't agree I would never see DD again.

In his car I found a load of photos of him on a lovely holiday with his exwife, which occured at the same time as this ridiculous meeting.

definately Insane

And you can't reason with insanity

Also proudnscary, it is his behaviour that is damaging the children, not hers. He is responsible for this awful situation, not her. This isn't her fault!

There are many things that can prevent or delay women leaving abusive relationships. Fear, finanacial dependence, and yes - a desire to keep the family together for the sake of the children.

Can you imagine how difficult it must be for the op to be the best, most consistent mother that she can be in these circumstances, when her head is being totally messed with and she's living in a permanent state of fear?

We should be applauding her resourcefulness in being able to meet her childrens needs whilst being abused herself, not implying that she's a bad mother because she is unable at present to simply up and leave.

Abuse men will always mess about, upsetting everyone around them, make life generally awkward and difficult then turn around and blame everyone but themselves. It takes a strong will not to believe this tripe and an awful amount of energy keeping yourself level headed under the pressure.

Abusive men

Regardless of whose responsibility it is, the children need protecting, yes? That's my point. Not that it's OP's fault - at all - but it very very much her problem and the dc's problem sadly.

I completely take on board what you are all saying and Annie's post was very illuminating (and chilling).

The irony is that I am always the poster to implore people to give their marriages a go for the sake of the kids (when abuse is not involved). I left Mumsnet for six months in frustration as I was so upset at how many posters were told to 'leave the twunt/why the hell are you with this man?' after the briefest of posts (again not talking abuse).

Because I was so hurt and emotionally neglected throughout and after my parents' divorce, and because of the subsequent relationship choices my parents made, I am a strong believer that divorce should be the absolute last possible option after counselling etc.

Sorry going off topic. Anyway, my point is my heart bleeds for children trapped in situations that are damaging whatever that may be. I know you all feel the same too.

I would also say - rather obviously - I am entitled to my opinion, and while I bow to your points of view on a subject I know little about, I don't need to be told what I 'should' or shouldn't be doing in terms of the OP Makeyerowndamndinner (fab name!).

proud hope you're not offended. It's just that unless you ahve been in that situation it's very easy just to say "leave the bastard" and all that, and it's not as simple as that.
Ultimately you are right, the kids needs need to be addressed and because they are kids, they can't do it themselves they need their parent(s).

Hopefully we can support op in her decision for the best for her future.

Oh heaven help you. The old "re-writing history" chesnut, very, very common in abusive, controlling men. They do believe their own, new version of YOUR past though, so you are wasting your time trying to set him straight. He probably also knows what you're thinking better than you know yourself??

Thank you for your replies. Yes he believes all this with total conviction. I really don't know what to say yes I know I should leave with the dcs I know they are being affected by it. Its just not that simple to up and leave in this situation. I said on a post before that he refuses to leave yet plans to do counselling and all sorts of rubbish which I know is absolutely useless as he actually believes he is the victim. He totally rewrites history. He seems to forget conveniently all the times he has been intimidating or threatening and rewords things he has said to me. I am really feeling under a lot of stress at the moment because I just want out and I'm hanging on by a thread that I do not want to be on. Its like he has a hold of that thread and some hold over me that I really am trying to break free from.
Forgive me I know this must make no sense at all.
I just appreciate that support and understanding at the moment.
Thankyou.

I see where you're coming from as well, proudnscary. In your case it sounds as though you ended up with the "wrong" parent after a split. This is another fear that abused women are bound to have - that they will lose influence to help their children or even lose contact with them altogether after a split. XH threatened me with him getting full residence, and it even seemed credible at one time that he would. Because, let's face it, it's not always the mother, or the SAHP of either gender, who is the better option for the children. A liar and manipulator may even be better placed to win residence than a frazzled, anxious, slightly deranged-looking abuse victim. So you stay "for the children" even though anyone outside would scream that you should be getting out for them. The viewpoint of someone who was a child in that situation is really helpful in this context.

Sorry, BreakFree, cross-posting and semi-hijacking. Just hold onto this fundamental knowledge: that he is mad and you are not. This is not going to go on forever.

ooh this is fascinating - as well as scary - I first had the idea that some sympathy might be required as it sounds like he might have got really worried about something being true and have added bits to it that don't fit in in time because of his fear and nervousness, but then when I re-read it it sounded like perhaps he was looking to you for an excuse as to why he'd beaten someone up, an excuse that you could give to the police, say, then I realised that I was being drawn in in the sameway you might have been - its sounds like you know he's wrong,m but I don't think arguing with him wil change his opinion of what happened - in fact it might entrench him. I feel for you here, as it must be very difficult - I do remember myself being in as relationship with a guy I never really trusted and my instinct was telling me that he was being deceptive and I would see signs etc that maybe weren't there.. but maybe were in another form- I know the powerful sense of wanting to scream 'you'r a liar' at him, and after an actual incident of infidelity, I almost couldn't trust anything he did afterwards. If he has no rational reason for feeling like that then you might have a problem - in my case, I would have needed constant re-assurance and clear positive signals for a llong time before I trusted again - so that would be my advice in that case.

HOWEVER i looked up the term 'Gaslighting' and realised that it was used a great deal on me by an overtly 'nice guy' boss, who was drastically incompetent and deceptive underneath (upwards they thought he was great, downwards we knew he was falisfying reports, not passing on information, then blaming people for not knowing it etc etc).
He and a colleague of his used to use the phrase 'you are misundertanding and misinterpreting what has been said to you' all the time -- in fact I think the colleague he drafted in had been given this script to deal with criticism as it was used with other people as well. If for example he'd said 'You are not pulling your weight, we need people to go the extra mile' and I then said 'well actually I already go the extra mile and help people out a lot' he would say 'you are misinterpreting what I have said' and I would say 'well what did you mean' he would say 'I said that I wanted you to stop giving too much time to helping colleagues you just said that you spend all your time helping colleagues' I would say 'no I said I already go the extra mile and help people out more than I need to, I don't think I spend too much time' and he would say 'you seem to be saying that you do spend time and you don't are you having trouble understanding what i am saying?

etc etc etc...

so I am going to say that even if its not intentional and he is having his own problems, it is going to take a lot of effort to hold on to your version if you and he are the only ones with an opinion on what happened - it might be better to take an 'he is ill' approach and try to coach him out of this paranoia - a friend of mine who had a miscarriage and felt very vulnerable (but totally denied the effects of the miscarriage) started reading everything her partner did negatively (eg if he was tired she accused him of 'sulking and ignoring me' if he went to work early it was 'because you want to avoid me' if he tried to talk it was 'you are interrogating me' so there could be some real emotional issue in the background that has triggered this as well.

I hope you work through it, but someone shouting 'you are a liar' is difficult - the only tip I can think of is to resist your natural defences and reactions (to shoult back, to re-state your story etc) and instead to say nothing or 'I understand I think what do you mean' until he starts explaining rather than shouting - often when people are shouting they are looking for a signal that you've heard (shouting is a way of trying top drive information in against resistance) and if you shout back or argue it will only escalate.

You might then find some clues to his paranoia and fear - perhaps about losing you, perhaps about feeling a need to take on anyone that threatens you?

Hope that ramble had some things in that might be useful if only to discard...

Ah, now, it's that idea of getting to the bottom of his insecurity that kept me putting up with nonsense for over two decades. I kept saying to myself that eventually he would realise I wasn't "like that", learn to trust me, get over his issues. In fact it just got worse. The divine Lundy Bancroft addresses this along with many other myths about abuse. I so wish I'd read Why Does He Do That? a few years ago.

Ok.. sorry - its just that I think I have been the slightly deranged freak in a relationship before - in fact when I am being magnanimous I say that it wasn't me or him it was the relationship that wasn't working...

i tried everything to establish some sort of reasonable communication with my H and to stop him telling me I was wrong /liar/deluded. First I thought if I made all the little changes he suggested that would work - it didn't he just moved onto something else. I tried ignoring it, I reacted passively, then angrily, realised it wasn't about me, tried the same tactics he used on me which made him worse. there was an argument at least once a month and the stress was making me ill. since hes been gone the atmosphere in the home has become calm relaxed and safe.

Phone womens aid and find a way to get him out of your house to start with then out of your life, they will be in the dcs life and then you can work on getting him out of your head.

I did that in that order and even though I am still working on the last one. It's great living without all that bloody mind fuck!