Ugh, mothers.

[FamilyShmamily]

I need to know I am actually sane.

Am not a mother, before I confuse you all. I was browsing the site and wanted to post. (Actually I browse the site a lot, you could say I was a lurker but it is a bit weird to love a parenting site when you have no children )

I have been with my boyfriend for 2 years. Admittedly I am only 22, and 2 years is not a long time, but I have had other relationships and I feel really grounded in this one. I would trust him with everything, he is incredibly supportive and a very good man. I am currently a student, I am undertaking a year in industry and then have one year left at university. My parents are very good to me and support me financially in my studies, although I try to pay back, through work, most of what they give.

My parents are devout Christians and their answer to everything is 'pray about it'. This is not necessarily a bad thing - but just a bit of background.

When my mother found out I was sleeping with my boyfriend she dragged me home from university and screamed at me for days, saying things like 'the devil is in you' etc. In the end I told her I wasn't going to have sex anymore, which appeased her so now she thinks I am a born again virgin or something.

I've tried to distance myself emotionally from her as she is very critical of me and treats me very much like a child. To some extent I am enabling her to treat me that way, as it is easier to go along with everything she says than to put up with her screaming and shouting for days on end. But really her constant negativity is weighing me down. Because I have 'sinned' she detests my boyfriend, and she is very negative about everything to do with him and his family. She believes that they are working class and below us etc. She pulls this cat's bum face every time I mention them, or she will even say unkind things about him and them.

She refers often to how quickly I 'dropped my knickers' and I find this offensive and repulsive. She is also very controlling and wants to keep me and my brother around forever. After I graduate I never want to live at home again, I really want to stand on my own two feet and start a career etc.

I need advice on how to loosen this grip she has on me. I feel I have the right to make my own choices and just because she believes I am a terrible sinner doesn't mean that I am. I am sick of hearing her badmouth my boyfriend, who has done nothing to deserve it.

Thanks for ploughing through that essay! I tried to be brief but I can talk for England.

You certainly have the right to make your own choices, and most people(even many devout Christians) don't think the Devil is in you just because you have sex before marriage.

Do you have any options on moving out and being independent now? It's not right for anyone to scream at you and be abusive about your choices, but if she has always been this way it will be tricky to get her to change.

I think that you have a decision to make.

Do you want to keep her in your life? I think that you can either cut her out, or start the very long process of trying to make things more liveable for you, by constantly reminding her that you don't like the things she says.

She sounds awful. But on the upside, there are more bad than good a lot of mothers on MN that sound as bad as yours!!

HOw to loosen the grip she has on you - take a step back.
Tell her that you will not speak to her about things to do with your life with your boyfriend with her until she can control herself. Tell her that, should you eventually marry this boyfriend, she will need to shape up and be polite to and about him (and if she isn't, then she won't be at the wedding)
Explain that you have made your choices, as has she - and that her badmouthing your choices is disrespectful to you both as her daughter and as an adult.
Perhaps suggest that if she carries on the way she is going, she will alienate you completely and end up knowing nothing about your life.

Then be strong enough to go through with it.

Sorry - random "with her" at the end of the second line! ignore it.

at Pfft.
I do live away from home during term time. I have thought about cutting her out but I don't actually want to do that. She is a good woman, and she can be so funny and we have a great time, but having her around is like having a grey cloud hanging over me.
What I want to do is graduate and, providing my boyfriend and I are stilll together then, move in with him. But I won't because she would never allow me to live with someone before marriage. It's so stupid of me to think that way because actually I could just do whatever I wanted, but I couldn't bear the consequences.

thumbwitch, thanks. That's mostly what it is about- whether I have the strength to act on how I feel.

There certainly are plenty of controlling mothers on MN, they may only have young children at the moment, but they can't let go!
Stick to your idea of never living at home again. Just tell yourself that it is only words and not true. Try not to get drawn in and tell her that you wll have to agree to disagree and change the subject.

It wouldn't do any harm if, when she's being lovely and funny, for you to kiss her and say "Oh I do love you when you're like this." It will mean a lot to her. And then, when you don't say it, she will associate it with the way she's behaving.

If she says, "As opposed to what?" be truthful and say, "Oh like when you tell me I've evil and have sin inside me and have a wicked boyfriend. When you say those things, all I want is to get as far away from you as I can, but when you're like this, I feel like you're my mum again."

And then sigh wistfully and look into space for a bit and then say, "Oh I wish it could be like this all the time."

(Think of "Oh I wish it could be Christmas...") :)

My parents are strict, evangelical born-again Christians too.

10 years ago I wouldn't have imagined telling them I had a boyfriend. Now I'm living with my partner and pregnant with our second child.

To some extent it's about growing a thicker skin. You know what you want, you are an adult, it is YOUR life and YOUR choice to make. So ignore her ranting. Try to create a bit of distance from her. I hardly ever see my mum, but we talk on the phone frequently. Our relationship is much better now that we have that distance as she's too busy missing me to be nasty when we chat.

When DP and I moved in together I did feel cold and sick at the thought of telling them, but ultimately just came out with it and said we were getting a flat together. She wasn't happy but I think that by this point she was used to me doing what I was going to do, and that her opinion wouldn't change that.

You should be able to improve things, but don't expect it to ever be fully a normal relationship with your mum. I was shitting bricks about telling my parents the first time I got pregnant, this time they weren't bothered at all My mum has even stopped making comments about me 'hopping into bed' with people now (that one made me very angry as it's not bloody true, grrrr)

Good luck, you sound really sensible and grounded, just try to keep calm when dealing with your mum, and remind yourself that she is the batty one, not you!

You have my total sympathy as I was in the same boat a few years ago. My mother is extremely critical, extremely controlling and extremely Catholic. She's always been the 'smiting' and judgmental Christian type, but me rejecting both her faith and admitting I wasn't a virgin was the last straw.

Like your mother she could rant and rave for hours (no make that months) about my sinfulness and was extremely offensive. Her favourite insult was that I was a "used up old shoe", as well as a slut, whore, sinner, loose, someone who'd thrown away a good upbringing, had been ruined by education etc. This was when she found out about a single boyfriend aged 23 when I'd been living away from home for years. (ha, if she'd found out what I'd really been up to college years earlier she'd have had a heart attack ).

I'm now not close to my mother and I tell her little about my life. Why should I attempt to forge a good relationship with someone who thinks so badly of me? I'm still with DP after 14 years, but until a couple of years ago she wouldn't admit it to anyone that I was living with a partner as I wasn't married. I suspect she only admits it now lest her cat-bum mouth Catholic friends think I'm a lesbian.

I think it's essential that you don't return home after college. Even if you don't secure a good job immediately after graduation, there's temping, bar work, even benefits.

I can't advise what to do to make her better - because you can't. What I would strongly counsel you against is feeling guilty or that you've erred and failed. For years I sucked up my mother's insults as if I somehow deserved them. Eventually my DP persuaded me that I "wasn't the local crack whore" so my mother was out of order for acting as if I was. If you've been brought up in an intensely Christian and rather closed environment, you can have a slightly skewed view of what's morally acceptable. You've had sex with a committed partner, not mugged a granny. You've not behaved in an immoral fashion.

The best of luck to you and your DP.

Thanks for all the posts. Lots of good ideas here. It seems strange to think that I can't just tell her to be quiet when she insults my lifestyle choices etc. I need to start standing on my own two feet. My dp is so understanding and patient, if he was like this with his mum I would be really fed up!

I realise how difficult it is, but what do you think the consequences would really be if you moved in with your boyfriend after graduation?
Even if you move into a flatshare with others you'd still be having sex with him so you're damned in your mother's eyes anyway. Do you think she'd cut you off if you shacked up?

Although your DP has been very understanding, there's a risk that if you defer to your mother on this, he'll think you're ashamed of him or agree with her opinion of him to a certain extent.

Tell your mother in no uncertain terms that you are living your life, not hers. She can either shut up and let you get on with it anyway you see fit.....or you can walk away.

Having so much negativity around you constantly has already started to drag you down, you wouldnt put up with it from anyone else, why take from her just because she is a relative?

I wish you luck with whatever you choose to do :)

My mum though not a christian was always very controling when I was at home. I have found that due to her making all my decisions for me I didn't develop my own decision making skills and moral code very well. Because she'd done it all for me my whole life.
So you can imagine how wild I went at uni!!
I fell in love with a man 15yrs my senior much to my mothers absolute horror. She was awfull to me and we barely spoke. It was a very painful time. I eventually broke up with this guy because I knew he'd never fit into my family. I could never see him sat around the christmas table with my granny etc. It broke my heart.
My mum has told me since (we're very close now) that it was fear that made her behave so poisonessly. She was so terrified of me making mistakes and she didn't know how to communicate those fears.
Any chance of a very honest heart to heart with your mum?

Catkins, I am aware that my actions, or lack of, might make him feel that I am ashamed. But if I spend too much time with my mother I feel as though I ought to break up with DP, and I actually contemplate it- which is ridiculous because I definitely do not want to break up. Her moods just confuse me and having spent my life trying to placate her and do the things that she would like and that would make life easier, I feel myself wanting to continue that way. It's pathetic.

Its not pathetic its natural to want to please your mother. Every child wants to.
But now you are not a child and you're carving your own path, one that may be quite different from your parents.
You know your mum loves you otherwise she wouldn't be bothered by you at all.

Try explaining to her how she makes you feel. She'd probably be horrified.

It's not pathetic, it's terribly difficult dealing with religious family members. Been there, done that, think I deserve a medal!

I know you want to please your mother, but it seems like she's impossible to please. OK, she might be happy if you split with your DP, but would she 'forgive' you for being a 'slag'? I suspect that you'd always be beaten over the head for 'giving away a woman's most precious possession'.

If you broke up, what else would you need to do to placate her? You've already mentioned she wants you to not leave home, that she doesn't want working class boyfriends. What other life decisions would you have to surrender to her? Could you ever meet her approval?

I'm throwing these questions at you not as a criticism but to make you consider 'what's the worst she can do?'. It's possible it would be OK, but it's also possible she could wreck a lot of damage. I know from personal experience that it's not just a case of saying 'sod it, I'll do what I want. Like it or lump it mum'.

I know my parents considered cutting me off. They held back as a cousin had been banned (for similar 'sins') from his parents house on the weekends so his presence didn't pollute the Sabbath within a Christian household. They thought this would bring him back round to their strand of Christianity, but he stuck to that for the rest of their lives and walked away from him father's deathbed at midnight on a Friday night. My father feared a similar stunt would mean they'd never see me again.

If you continue to plough your own furrow, your mother might grudingly come round. She might not. Some religious people happily carry out honour killings of their children (not suggesting that here!), so it's possible she'd be 'righteous' enough to end her relationship with you. I have a Jewish friend who is dead to her family as she married a fellow Jew of a different denomination. Another Jewish friend was threatened with this for marrying a Christian, but the family came round. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

I think you need to think what your mother is likely to do should you follow your heart, and decide whether you could cope with that. Would she disown you? Would she remain in contact but behave disrespectfully towards your DP, you, any future children even if you married? These things could fatally damage your relationship with your DP. Could you deal with estrangement from your family and not blame him? If you bow to her wishes, your life could be easier, but would you always harbour regrets and come to resent her? Do the circles you move in mean that a future partner is likely to be the type to come up to scratch?

It's so unfair that you are being put in this position. Have you heard the saying that to get good people to do bad things you need religion. All I can say is that after 14 years with my partner, I have absolutely no regrets about the decisions I made at 23.

Gah! Religion!

When you graduate don't go back!

Repeat to your Mum every time she says/does/behaves in a a controlling way "I understand your beliefs but they're not mine and I'm an adult now please respect that"

This sort of approach is worth a try before you have to do take the drastic action of cutting ties. Try and remember your Mum is having to learn to let you go and keep her mouth shut but at the minute she is financing you so you're still a little bit under their roof which makes it easier for her to feel entitled to treat you this way.

Hope that makes sense.

You've taken me right back to my undergraduate days! My mother was quite similar - once got herself let into my Hall of Residence room to checj it out - she lived nearly 200m away! When she found an empty pill packet I was made to feel like the eveil child from hell - I was 21! I never got on too well with her and wish you better luck than I ever had. I used to feel depression come over me as the train got nearer their home, and come alive as the train got nearer London. I never cut ties, just stopped telling the absolute truth. I wish you luck and happinessxx

I know your situation. My father (a devout ultra conservative Christian) was rather shocked and unimpressed to discover that I, a single woman of 39, have a double bed.

I ignored it but it's hard to have any kind of realistic relationship when people refuse to accept that you have a right to make your own decisions. Although my parents would think that I was choosing hell and therefore they have not only a right, but an obligation to reject my ungodly choices, if not me. It's not control, it's love.

As for what to do about it? Tough one.

Personally I think you need to distance yourself from her as essentially she's not loving, nurturing or accepting you and whatever the reason for her doing this is, it's not healthy and she has no right to treat you this way. When she badmouthes your boyfriend you could calmly call her on her judgmentalism and point out that that is not a fair comment to make.

Do you have a lot of guilt attached to this?

This is a hell of a lot easier said than done - but I think your mother continues with her insulting because she senses she still has a hold on you and hopes to modify your future behaviour.

If you can be strong enough to make it clear you will make your own decisions she may calm it down.

It's about power at this stage. A few short years ago, she had all the power as you were a child. Now you're an adult, but it's a tricky time and your adult-adult relationship is still being forged.

Your mother has lived her life and made her choices. She doesn't get to live yours too. Living with disapproval is difficult, but once you do get married you'll probably have it full-time from your MIL anyway...

Hi Family,

re your comment:-

"I do live away from home during term time. I have thought about cutting her out but I don't actually want to do that. She is a good woman, and she can be so funny and we have a great time, but having her around is like having a grey cloud hanging over me".

I would be living away from her permanently tbh with you and tell her nothing about your life.

Why don't you want to cut this person off, is it because she is your mother and you only get one of those?. Nonsense. You would not put up with this nonsense from a friend, your mother is truly no different in that regard. She is not a positive influence on you at all, infact I think you are her scapegoat for her inherent ills. You are still her child and she will treat you like this for the rest of her days because you permit this as well. You cannot do so anymore.

So you would rather have a grey cloud hanging around you instead?. I find that very sad. Your mother is a toxic person who takes some real delight in pulling you down and rubbishing your own life choices. Do not put up with it.

Unfortunately toxic people like your mum will not play by the normal "rules" governing familial behaviours. Such people never apologise for their actions let alone take responsibility for them. Controlling behaviours are abusive behaviours as well.

I would suggest you read the following:-
"Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward
"If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth
"When you and your mother cannot be friends".

Bumbums- I really don't think she would be horrified if I told her how she made me feel. She would just make me feel bad for saying it, and she would twist it so that I was in the wrong.

I'm not saying she is always a bad person, sometimes, like I said, she is so funny and nice and clever.... but I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around her and can only say things that she would want to hear. Lots of things can make her fly off the handle.

Thanks for the book info, I will take a look on amazon.

Family,

I don't think your mother is nice, funny and clever at all. She sounds like a toxic parent, besides which you feel you can only say things she wants to hear. Making you feel bad for saying stuff and twisting words around to suit her own ends are all typical actions of a toxic parent.

"Walking on eggshells" is just another way of saying "living in fear". You have a choice re your mother. Like many victims of toxic parents you could be well in the FOG - fear. obligation, guilt phase.

Have a look too at the website "Daughters of narcissistic mothers". Your mother may well be narcissistic in terms of personality.

BTW you do not mention your father; what is he like?.