How to get DH to *do* more??

[Teachermumof3]

A quick bit of background-DH and I met at University, have been together for 13 years, married for 10 and have three children-8,5 and 2. He works f/t and I work p/t.

He has hated his job over last 5 or so years and has been made redundant and then found similar work (which he hated!) but is now in a slightly different line of work-is happier, though now has a long commute and is out of the house from 7.30-7.30. I fully appreciate that as I am there, I end up doing the bulk of the housework-which is fine.

What really bugs me, is that when for any reason he is back to do bedtime, or at the weekends-it still falls to me to do it all. If I call down for him to help at that crucial bit of bedtime when all 3 need something at the same time-he just happens to be doing something 'important' (if I say-'can't it wait'-the answer is always 'no')-be it checking work emails/phoning his mum/blowing his nose...) He then pops up ten minutes later when it's all done-and says 'anything I do?' I don't mind doing everything if he's not actually in the house-but why should I kill myself when he just can't be bothered to help.

He's the same with the housework-does very little. He used to cook all the time, but since having kids that falls to me as I'm there. He will sometimes now, but it will get to meal time and when I say 'what shall we have'-I get, 'I'm not really hungry'-well the rest of us are! He does turn washing round if asked and will clean a room (just one room-but thoroughly...) but often only if I'm moaning about the house being a mess.

If I complain about anything-he replies that he works full time and I work p/t-'wanna swap' in a borderline aggressive way! He can get quite 'bitchy' in arguments and twists things I say, so to be honest I tend not to complain to much and get on with things to avoid an argument. He has had periods of stress/depression and has been known to just slam the door and stomp off out of the house or smash things in an argument so it's always been easier to just get on and do xyz myself. I am aware that I probably sound like a victim of domestic/verbal violence which I don't think I am-but I am aware that I haven't helped myself by just accepting things to avoid his strops.

How do I reasonably get him to do stuff-I feel like I have simmering resentment over lots of little things, but it's never 'worth' it exploding about, so I just get on and simmer. Now, I think he would be stunned that I'd never said anything before-but I suppose he needs to realise that that's my reaction to him being stroppy.

I want him to do 50% of stuff when he's here-not expect me to have to do everything because I only work part time. It pisses me off when he does very little around the house, throws the 'I work full time-let's swap' line at me if I complain and then still wants sex at night

Have you considered a swap?

I'm not saying it's ok that he doesn't pull his weight btw. If you remain with the current work situation, you will need to renegotiate responsibilities at home as he isn't doing enough.

But tbh the first thing that strikes me is that he has been working full time in jobs which he doesn't like/ long commute. I get the feeling he really does want to swap. Is that something thats been up for proper discussion?

It only has been up for discussion when he's been out of work.

I suppose the main objections to that is that a) he earns a lot more than I do and b) he doesn't do anything around the house even when he's here. On the occasions that he's had the children and I've been at home-it looks like a bombsite. He's obviously just put a load of washing and the dishwasher on at 5pm, the post and lunchboxes are unopened, beds unmade. These are things that I would consider daily basic jobs; let alone all the other things like ensuring there's food in the fridge, cleaning, putting the washing away and even hoovering (let alone the unseen bits like remembering birthdays/swimming days-in fact remembering absolutely everything that has to be remembered!, sorting cupboards, buying clothes, paying bills, writing cards/presents etc) He has said that if I worked full time, I would just have to accept that these things weren't done to my 'ridiculous expectations'.

My job is the sort where although I'm only out of the house from 7.30-5.30, I have paperwork in the evenings and would have to do a lot more work to do in the evenign and at the weekends if I were full time, so for me to have to do that (in a job that I don't exactly skip along to) AND accept that the house was a state (which I would then end up doing at the weekends because I would be ashamed to live like that) it would be a big thing. We also couldn't pay the bills/mortgage on my salary alone and his job isn't the sort where p/t work is easy to find.

It sounds like me making excuse after excuse, I expect though. I think you are right and he is sort of punishing me for being able to work part time, whereas he doesn't.

I can't think of a solution, but I don't like the one we're in at the moment :(

Same situation in our house Teacher. Him full time very demanding, me part time school hours. When I finish work I am into full on mummy mode - all their activities, trips to the dentist etc etc. If I bring up the unfair division of labour he says his job is too full on for him to feel like getting the hoover out or start ironing of an evening. He has perfected the art of doing absolutely sod all whilst looking busy! Maybe they're all the same?! On the plus side, I couldn't stand to have a DH who inspected the house and criticised me for my lack of effort in that department!

If you are out of the house from 7.30 til 5.30 it sounds pretty full time to me! and 3 children must be really hard. What about ideas to try and make your life a bit easier - could you get a cleaner? Maybe do your grocery shopping online?

Thanks for your reply-I work those house but just not every day.

I'm pleased to see that I'm not alone, but it's bloody irritating that they can just abstain from these responsibilities and everything just happens anyway. If they did that at work-they wouldn't last very long!

I've done the shopping online ever since we got married and most of the clothes, too. We could get a cleaner, I suppose-we did have one when I was pregnant, though DC is about to start nursery and that will cost until they turn 3! I wonder if that's the solution!?

So you're contributing a lot financially, plus you're a full-time mum, housekeeper and his personal assistant. And if you complain he slams doors, is 'borderline aggressive' and smashes things. Oh, and after all that he expects sex.

This can't carry on, Teachermum. You'll crack under the strain!

If he won't sit down and listen to you, without twisting your words or whinging about his full-time job, I can't see much hope, sorry. Would he be open to councelling?

Might be worth trying it out. I am thinking about it myself - I also sometimes send my ironing out if it gets too much - it's a huge help.
I totally get your thing about not wanting him to do 50% of the jobs - just help out 50% when he's there. And isn't it amazing how everything still gets done and the bills get paid whether they take their hands out of their pockets or not!

I suppose that's the point-I'm not contributing 'a lot' financially compared to him?

it requires a discussion on the dicvision of labour. who does what chores.

for instance dh does the bins, puts clothes away, tidies out bedroom about once a month and irons his own work shirts and trousers - as well as washes them.

On another thread someone mentioned the cost of housekeeping, childcare, etc and it came to well-over 20 grand a year!

That's what he'd be having to fork out if you weren't around (not counting PA and er...personal services). It might be worth reminding him of that.

finances are not the point.

its about division of labour

arse in seat time - is arse in seat time divided equally?

then you are working more than he is - despite the fact that his role is paid.

look, this is about respect for you as a human being. this is about him recognising the work that you do and appreciating you for it and helping out when he can.

but IME, it is best not to leave it to them - i think men are mostly black and white about these things - if you negotiate a list of chores and negotiate the fairness - come to a decision about what he does and what you do... write it on a piece of paper stick it on the fridge - or write it on the calender. then this becomes an agreement that he agreed to! he agreed it through negotiation and discussion. therre is no grey area - in an argument there is no ' i never said i would do that every tuesday' its written down, its black and white, its agreed.

I think finances are an issue here because the DH is assuming he has the right to be a lazy arse because he's bringing in the bacon.

I agree with the division of labour though. And clear, simple lists are an excellent idea. Teachermum, do you think this is feasable or is he likely to strop about it?

(I also wondered about when you had time to sit down and say, read a book?)

Although "arse in seat" time (great description) needs careful definition. He would not, I'm guessing, count phoning his mum as that, although I would.

Lists sound like a plan-but it's more complex as really it's only the weekends that I want changes made as he's not here in the week and the kids are fed/bathed/read to by the time he's in, the washing is done/put away and the house clean. At the weekends I want him to accept it's not fair that he sits surfing the web whilst I do more washing/cleaning/entertaining the kids. Unless the list was v specific...

saturday
hoover house
do one load of washing+put away
not sit on arse...

Tallwivglasses-I read in bed (10/11pm?) when I can stay awake. Of course it's great fun when he comes to bed at 1am having done yet more 'surfing the web whilst sitting on arse' and tries to wake me up for nookie...

I think he thinks he needs some of the 'me time' at the weekends that I get in the week (ha).

I also like doing stuff at the weekends-as a family and he says 'do we have to do xyz?' or 'we aren't doing anything this weekend, are we?' as he wants a restful weekend of sitting on his arse on the internet! but doesn't get that you can't do nothing all weekend with three kids (or any kids) as they go potty.

Maybe I just don't like him very much anymore :(

My parents have always said that a couple need to look at the 'income' each brings to the relationship. I put 'income' because they don't just mean cash, they mean contribution in general. Let's look at the 'income' you and your DH are both bringing in:

Him: good money. AND VIRTUALLY NOTHING ELSE. He also detracts from what he brings in by being moody, scary, aggressive, whiny and demanding (esp. sex).

You: Money, albeit less than him. AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

Your working hours far exceed his, as you are doing a job and running the home and looking after your kids basically single-handedly. The 'income' you therefore contribute also outstrips his astronomically.

My DP is the main breadwinner but it never enters his head that this lets him off otherwise contributing equally to the running of our home and making sure both of us are happy in our relationship. Like my parents, we both recognise that cash is only one thing a partner brings to the home, the family and the relationship.

If your DP is determined to use wages and hours spent working as an excuse to do bugger all, turn the tables on him and use the 'income' model to present him with the facts of how little he does actually contribute and work compared to you.

PS If he really does hate his job then that's not your fault and it's not a valid excuse to not pull his weight.

What I see happening here is a cycle of resentment and one in which you are not getting your needs met at all. The division of labour you describe is appallingly unfair, but in addition to all this, your sexual needs are being unmet too.

I have to say that I think this is all influenced by gender politics and it sounds as though a large part of your H thinks that you should do these things simply because you are a woman.

Your H's response to your complaints is to "points score" rather than responding with empathy. I expect from his perspective, he thinks you are using sex as a weapon, flexing the only power you and he believe you hold in the relationship. From your point of view, perhaps, it's not that you don't want sex, it's that you don't want sex with someone who is acting like a child and whom you resent. At the heart of this problem is the power dynamic in your relationship. This often shifts dramatically at key life milestones, such as having children.

It might help you to write down and therefore rehearse what you are about to say. Start with key principles, such as wanting an egalitarian relationship where your individual qualities are valued and where you both have an equal share of leisure time. Where both your sexual needs are met. On this last point, reinforce that you are just as much a sexual being as him.

Write down all the tasks that have to be done to keep the show on the road and don't forget things like present-buying, card-writing and other memory tasks. Having done this, both negotiate areas of complete responsibility, proportionate to the hours you work, the time this responsibility takes and eachother's available time. It is terribly important that the children also know who's responsible for what, so that if he is responsible for the washing and ironing, they don't come to you and berate you if they don't have something ironed. This also teaches children important lessons about gender roles.

Have this discussion in an adult way and explain that you want to take precipitive action before the cycle of resentment takes hold and has an even more pernicious effect on your relationship. That you want there to be mutual empathy for the pressures you both face and in all this, demonstrate openness to considering other job roles and changes of career, because from your H's point of view, it is miserable to be in the wrong career. However, I also have a slight suspicion that he might be extending his "working hours" to get out of doing chores.

If you come at this from the perspective that this is about how power is enacted in your relationship and you are taking action now to re-balance things and stop the rot, you will have more clarity.

Just seen your further post. Waking you up for sex is a further points-scoring episode and I have heard and seen this time and time again in relationships. It is manipulative, because if he actually wanted sex, he would come to bed at the same time as you. He is therefore setting you up to fail, knowing that you will say no and chalking it up against you.

Yes-WhenwillIfeelnormal, all of what you have written rings very true. I feel really pathetic for having let this situation develop as at work I'm v assertive and 'no nonsense'!

I have written (some time ago actually, but I've been revising it!) a list. One one side it has all the lovely things about him, and there are plenty. He's kind, compliments me, generous with money, though not really time), loyal, sympathetic, makes me laugh etc

BUT-there are many things on the not so lovely side! Maybe I should show him that??

You're right about the best bet being an adult chat and taking preventative action before things really are destroyed, I'd like to have this without his immediate knee-jerk response being 'well, you work full time then' or him manipulating everything I say.

Maybe I should write a list of all the things I do around the house (I can see his eyes rolling as I type that...)

Thank you for your responses-they've made me more sure I'm not being a whinging money grabber.

Hi TeacherMum - I'm in a very similar situation to you, although things are improving somewhat. There's a really good book called Wifework that I would recommend. Have a read of that, and than get your DH to read the bits that you think are most relevant.

A lot of men trivialise the whole "wifework" issue in order that they don't have to take our concerns seriously and hence, don't actually have to do any bloody thing about it.

The unspoken message seems to be that he is punishing you to some extent for him being in a stressful job that he doesn't like. Am I correct in picking up something like this? My DH is the same - whenever we talk about the distribution of household chores I always get the "my job is so demanding/stressful etc and I need time to relax". I agree with WWIFN - he is using sex as a weapon in this war of resentment. My DH witholds sex, leaving me feeling undesirable and unwanted. It's not a good situation to be in and only gets worse IME unless you get to grips with this now.

Thank you Onlyonelife. Can I ask what you've done to improve things a bit?

Am going to Amazon now to buy that book!!

My DH works (commutes)6:30-7:00 and when he comes home needs 5 minutes or so to take his shoes off, open a beer or make a cup of tea. After that, he will jump up and help with bedtime.

I think you are a bit unfair expecting him to jump in straight away. give him his 10 minutes (what is 10 minutes anyway?!), it's not great to come home and be ordered about straight away. He does come up, you say, after 10 mins, so really, the kids can WAIT 10 minutes. They really can. Let them go to bed 10 minutes later, with help of DH.

Get a cleaner for 2 hrs a week. Not a big expense, but great to get some help.

You have some valid points, but you do need to pick your battles.

I think you are a bit unfair expecting him to jump in straight away. give him his 10 minutes (what is 10 minutes anyway?!),

Just to clarify-he never helps with bedtime when he's been at work; they are in bed by the time he gets home. The 10 mins I was referring to is at the weekend or on any days he may be at home-he will find something else 'important to do during the crucial bits I need him, and then will appear ten minutes later. I'm not that horrid!

I have shown him the Wifework book. I don't know if he's read much of it, but it just being around seems to have had some affect.

I have also spoken to both him and my DS, who is 15, about how it isn't fair that one person in the house does all the work in the house. I told my DH that I don't want our DS growing up and being in a relationship one day where he just expects his partner to do all the "invisible" work that keeps a house going. I think this struck a nerve with DH and he has really been trying.

As Chandon says, pick your battles. My DH is essentially untidy and disorganised by nature, not to mention lazy. That wil never change, so I have adjusted my expectations and developed a thicker skin. He has specific things that he knows I want him to do, and that will cause me to be unhappy/go off on one if it's not done. These include keeping the living areas tidy, keeping his own shit in its own shitpile where I don't have to see it. If he doesn't pick up his clothes, they get kicked under the bed and certainly will not get washed. Stray shoes are tossed into the porch or wherever they may land. I won't sort through his paperwork. I don't cook very often. I am attempting to teach my DS how to cook some basic meals, so he will be helping out soon as well. I sort my DD out and then just wait for him to get home. I will be ready with ideas though when he comes home and asks what's to eat.

I also just don't do as much housework as I used to do. Does it really matter if there's a bit of dust lying around? I know it's more difficult with 3 children than 2, and they are younger than mine, but my DD has autism so the parenting doesn't really stop much either. Your older kids could be helping around the house now. Work out how much free time you have
as compared to your DH at present. If you have less, then build more free time into your week. This is what I have done - I was working 25 hours PT and I now work 20. And make sure you spend your free time doing things just for you - gym, catching up on TV, reading. As long as you feel that you are getting your fair share of free time, then it will bother you less that he doesn't help much over the weekend.

I have also learned to stop being the long-sufffering martyr type as much. If he can have a tantrum and stamp his feet, then you are entitled to do the same. You also have to be prepared to not back down on the things that are important to you. So if you don't want to cook dinner, and he says "I'm not hungry", then cook for yourself and the children only. Or ask him to get a takeaway.

Chandon as someone who is often out of the house for 12 hours working, I acknowledge that people need a 10 minute break on coming home from work, but this is trivialising the issue. If it were just about this problem, it would be an easy negotiation.

OP Wifework is a great read, albeit it is a rather old text now. However, what's sad and depressing is that this forum alone proves that much of its message is still so relevant.

Don't beat yourself up too much for letting it get this way; you are 50% responsible for that and no more. What you must never forget is that this isn't just about the expectations your H has of you, but the expectations of others in society, you have absorbed and are still absorbing.

To illustrate this, have a think about who would be blamed more by others if they visited your home and it was a tip - you or your H? Who would be blamed more if your DCs turned up at school with dirty or unironed clothes? If your child went to a party without a present?

This is just as much a problem in society as it is in relationships. Society blames women when these things don't get done, far more than it blames men. Other women (like Mums and MILS) are often the worst offenders for these double-standards, too.

I would also say, don't aim too low in your expectations. It sounds as though you write off the weekday evenings as far as his contribution, but are they written off for you too? When he comes home at night, does that mark the start of your leisure time too?

I cannot stress enough that dividing work is not about tasks, but about responsibilities. This really does work best when you work on a cradle to grave premise, so the responsibility is for laundry right through the process from washing basket to its reappearance in a cupboard. Other tasks can be divided up more discretely, so whoever cooks, the other loads and unloads the dishwasher or washes, dries and puts away.

Your H also needs to appreciate that families need to play together and that your DCs are not going to be satisfied with days at home every weekend. We all need a complete down day at fairly regular intervals, but with DCs, it's all about compromise, especially when they are young and need entertaining.

There is something else I want you to focus on. I write most frequently on infidelity threads and I am often trying to explain that infidelity happens not when an unfaithful partner is not "getting enough" from the primary relationship, but rather when they are not "giving enough". The situation you describe in your OP and subsequent posts could have been tailor-made as a case-study to explain this concept, especially when I see the manipulations your H is enacting about sex.

I must reassure you that I am not suggesting that your relationship is about to be blighted by infidelity, but I often wish I had the opportunity to intervene on here before it comes to that. It would be a shame if posters who had suffered infidelity in a partner ignored your thread thinking this had nothing to do with their situation, because I have seen so many threads now where in the aftermath, posters start from the premise that their faithless partner wasn't "getting enough" from the relationship, when it actually emerges that s/he wasn't "giving enough".

You certainly speak a lot of sense, whenwillIfellnormal. I am very aware about what other people would think of me/the house if they were slovenly. Interesting point re the infidelity, too-this has happened to a couple I know very recently. He always seemed to do nothing with the children/her or the house and has just left them for someone else. I will deffo bear that in mind.

I also really like your perspective on things-onlyonelife, I obviously need to talk to DH to get things sorted, but I don't want to become a martyr. He's always accused his mum of being one and I don't want to go the same way...

what i once did,came home from work and went to see a friend,when i came back,the flat was a mess.but my point is,dont expect him to do a lot,you do less just to show him how it looks like from the other side!