Custody of DS

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After yet another row with DP, I have told him that I have had enough and want to split up. We have been here so often but he always talks me round or just acts as if nothing has happened and I always cave in. I dont know why as he doesn't seem any happier than me.

My biggest concern is DS who is 2 in Feb. he seems oblivious to everything at the moment but I can;t bear that he will grow up
thinking that this is a normal relationship.

For all his faults, DP is a good dad. Not always as patient or hands on as he could be but he adores DS and DS him. DP has always said to friends that if we ever split up he knows that I would never try and stop him seeing DS and he is absolutely right. Regardless of my feelings for DP, the only thing that matters to me is DS's happiness and I think it is very important that he has a good relationship with both his parents.

Just to give you a bit of background, DP and I are not married. We live in a house in my name so DP will be moving out. DP works time and I work three (short (9.30-3) days a week - my mum has DS two of these days and he goes to nursery 9-3 the other.

The thing is when every we have discussed this previously, DP always threatens or hints that he would fight me for custody. Or he says that he wants to have him 3 days one week and 4 the next.

I dont think this is practical for lots of reasons. Mainly because I think DS is too young to go 3 or 4 days without seeing either of us. I know I couldn't bear it either. It also isn't very practical as DP works full time - I think originally he thought we would just continue as we are with me/mum looking after DS during the day. I said that if he had shared care he ould be responsible for DS during the days when DS was with him (not sure this is correct?). He then said he would put DS in nursery for his days even a) though he wouldn't be able to afford it and (b) he has always said he doesn't want DS to go to nursery for full days.

I have thought about this a lot and I am going to suggest to him was that he has DS 3 nights a week - 2 set nights during the week and then alternate Fri night/Sat day and Sat night/ Sun day. During the day we will contine as we are with DS going to nursey 1 short day and me and mum having him the rest of the time. No maintenance to be paid but DP to pay 50% of the nursery costs.

DP has no savings so I would need to give him the money for a deposit and a couple of months rent on a flat nearby so he has somewhere to take DS (I know that he would want to stay nearby).

I know it sounds like a lot to-ing and frowing and this may need to be reviewed as DS gets older but at the moment I really think he would be fine with it. He is more than happy as long as he is with one of us (or my mum!).

I am going to go and see a solicitor in the new year but in the meantime I would be very grateful for opinions on the following questions:

1. Given the circumstances above, does it sound at all possible that DP would awarded sole custody? This is my biggest fear and if it was the case I would stay put rather than ever let this happen

2)Does my suggestion sound reasonble?

3. If we did end up going to court, what access would be be likely to be awarded?

Thanking you in advance

MJ- good post

I'm a bit surprised that two of the main posters on the Feminism section are advocating that the women should do most of the child care therefore taking the hit on her salary and career after separation leaving the man to carry on working without any hinderance.

I don't see how equality in the work place can be achieved if men don't get to take responsibility for childcare etc.

I don't think anyone is advocating that women do most of the childcare Truck. Just acknowledging that currently, they do. And that many men only become interested in having 50/50 responsibility for their children, when the couple splits.

MJ, it's true that in the first year or so, it's - not "impossible" but more difficult for men to take 50 50 responsibility for a child - but after that? No, it's not impossible. The only way all parents are going to get the right to balance work/ life properly, is for men to keep pushing at work for what women have been pushing for, for the last 20 years - part time hours, flexible working, flexi time, promotion in spite of reduced hours etc., so that they can take full responsibility for their children.

It is very suspicious that so many men only want to take full responsibility, once they split with their wives. We need to be very very careful, about blithely giving up the rights women only gained after the war, to have custody of their own children. Before that throughout history, children were treated as little possessions - those of their fathers. Mothers had no right to custody or even contact at all, even if the father were violent, criminal, etc. The courts now treat children as people and that means taking note of who has been the primary carer and ensuring that continuity and stability is upheld as that is perceived to be in the child's interests. Hence the reason that care and control is generally awarded to women.

I'm all for shared parenting, but only where it's genuinely shared. Too many cases of so called shared parenting, are actually parenting between a step mother or paternal grandmother and a mother - the father is still doing far too little of the actual parenting. I can't understand why people think that's a reasonable proposition: loads of women doing the childcare, damaging their careers and pension prospects in the process, while men get to pretend they're taking equal responsiblity for it and pursuing their careers as if they didn't have any childcare responsibilities, because they've got various women doing it all for them. I'd be happy to hand over 50% of childcare to men, if they actually did it. At the moment, most of them don't and I don't think it helps either the cause of equality or meets the needs of children, to pretend that they do. Roll on the day that's not true, it can't come quick enough. But I don't see any fathers marchign in the streets or scaling parliament in batman costumes to demand paternity rights, work-life balance and the right to do 50% of domestic labour and childcare, so that their wives and partners have equal time as they do, to pursue their career and leisure interests. Where are they all?

50/50 works for us too. And as ex's work is at weekends he has DS during the week and I have him at weekends. DS was 2 when we split, he's now 5 and is a very happy boy.

Ex and i are good friends, the split was amicable (emotionally distressing, but not angry). We saw a solicitor about money/house issues and were advised strongly not to make a formal legal arrangement if we were capable of arranging the parenting between ourselves without conflict.

I will say though that impact on our lives for the first year was that we stuck rigidly to the arrangement. This meant that we had to sacrifice doing some of the things we would have liked to do, but DS wellbeing came before all of that. The routine was established, and now we can slip out of it (though this doesn't happen often) so that we can have DS on a day we wouldn't normally for special occasions, holidays etc.

I have been criticised for the way we do this (i'm his mother, i should have him all week ) but we know our son. We know what works for him and this is it.

You have to assess the whole situation and assess what will work best for your child.

Yes it's hard being away from my son for 3 and a half days a week. It's just as hard for his dad to be away from him.

I'd echo the point that one night with his dad may make it difficult for him to settle. This has happened a few times for us (due to illness/emergency) and DS found it very unsettling.

'That's not true either. The primary carer relationship is the most important, to the child. It is their source of survival and security. It actually traumatises children to be removed from them. A lot of men who decide they want 50-50 are doing it because of the not having to pay child support. They also fob off the actual childcare to another woman in a lot of cases. Those kind of men definitely treat children as possessions.'

Is this personal experience or based on facts?

Thank you everyone for your input. It is good to hear of examples where 50/50 has worked sucessfully.

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies properly as DP is around and DS is demanding attention! but I will go back later today and do so.

Dittany - thank you for your comments, it is very useful to hear both sides of the arguement. However I have to disagree that I am not acting in my sons best interests. I agree 50/50 for the sake of it (with DS in nursery hald the week) is not in his best interests, which is why I am suggesting something different. During the day there would be no change with me and mum doing the childcare. To be honest he is in bed by 7, so the reality is that although the number of nights is only 6 v 8, he will still be with me the majority of the time during the day - there wont be a huge departure from the current situation. He will just spend three evening and one day at the weekend with daddy. And I cant believe that either DP or more importantly DS would want any less contact than that.

mjinsparkingstockings - as the child of divorced parents myself, you sum it up perfectly for me when you say that kids should be able to see each parent as much as they can and whenever they want. I wish mine had managed this.

It makes me ache to think of not tucking DS up every night but this about what is best for DS and not for me or DP.

Actually Dittany my ex was working 6 days a week. When we split he knocked the mid-week work on the head so he was free to parent his son.
Don't tar all men with the same brush please. Some of them are capable of putting their needs secondary to that of their child.
I was the primary carer, and it has not damaged my son to be removed from my care three days a week. On the contrary, having that quality time with his dad has made a huge difference to him.

Alright then I don't agree with you that a lot of men do 50/50 to avoid paying child support.

The main reason being it would be cheaper to pay 15% of your salary to the other person and not have the day to day costs of children.

I have never met anyone who sees more of their children to avoid maintenance.

actually Dittany having read your last comment again i'm appalled that you would make such an assumption about this man when you do not actually know him.

In the past you have accused people of making a personal attack on you. The statement you made there is a personal attack on someone who is not here to defend himself.

Dittany: you said

'This guy is going to fob off the childcare on to paid nursery nurses. He's not making a single sacrifice to his career. Everything carries on as before for him, he's just got a different woman looking after his son.'

That to me is a personal attack on him. You don't know that this is what he's going to do. In the event of them agreeing 50/50 he may well make sacrifices to his career. The arrangements we were planning for our son (and therefore our own personal changes) took weeks to sort out. Ex originally didn't plan such a drastic change to his work, and it may be the OP's ex will change his attitude as they work through it.

However, I will apologise for the other statement I made. You did indeed say 'a lot of men' and 'those kind of men'. You did not imply it was 'all men'

I'm sorry.

OK. I'm bowing out of this now. It's not helpful to the OP to have this thread derailed by another row over personal opinion and semantics.

'A two year old is deeply tied up in his primary connection. If that's you, you should respect it, not start thinking about adult needs.'

I agree with Dittany.

I also don't think having 2 homes is a good idea. I do know a few people where it works well with the non resident parent having the child say Mondays and Tuesdays with some weekends as well. Children are not a possesion to be split, they need one home with good access to the other parent.

"but he will often do as little as he can get away with! He also find it hard to 'play' with DS for very long without getting bored, but he loves taking him swiiming etc."

Actually this sounds a lot like me!

I think we need to be careful about putting too much emphasis on childcare arrangements when deciding residency. Otherwise a single working mum could see her ex get residency because she needs to use childcare to cover her working hours.