Think I may have fallen out with a friend. WWYD? Very long alert.

[ampere]

I have a work colleague, Sue (not her real name) who has, over 4-5 years, become a friend. She had an apparently perfect family set up with 3 DCs, but, 3 years ago, her DH more or less walked out, citing 'a breakdown'. Needless to say, there was OW. He did appear to have some sort of breakdown- appearing disheveled, rambling, stary eyes etc. (he came to take the DS, then 10, out- for a half hour trip to Argos for example!).

There is another woman at work who is the same age as us and all 3 of us are good frinds, bearing in mind we all have families etc to deal with.

Anyway, the other friend and I have been endlessly patient about Sue's marriage breakdown. We have been cried on, we have listened hour after hour to the same stuff, over and over, we have crafted going out plans around her circumstances, we have offered as much advice as we could (along the lines of 'Get a solicitor/ change the locks if you're scared of him/ document the veiled threats he's making/ keep your DS at arm's length from him if you don't trust him'). All has gone unheeded. She wouldn't even declare herself a single parent on her DD's uni funding application because of 'the shame'. She is in financial dire straits (though wouldn't ask for more hours at work in case our boss suspected!). She also has a tendency to 'talk over' us like she has to be heard. The other friend occasionally tells her to shut up and listen/let us get a word in! My DH thinks she's hilarious in that respect.

She is also quick to fall out- I mean, I get on with everyone at work (or at least, they all think I do- I hate a frosty atmosphere!) but she has alienated quiet a few people. No one gets a second chance.

Thing is, poor woman doesn't appear to have 'moved on' much at all in 3 1/2 years of separation. And I have to say, there is an element of 'Scottish Widow' about her- deep in her soul I think she is perhaps unconsciously enjoying the martyred role, standing proud and dignified, refusing help.

Well, small issue BUT I am struggling a bit this Xmas. It's definitely no more than the Winter Blues, stuck in on annual leave for a week with the DSs with all my plans scuppered by the weather, sickness and apathy (not just mine!). I managed to get a night off being 'on-call' last night (Tues) and I invited 5 families over for drinks (invites issues on Saturday) including Sued and her DS (now 13), but not our mutual friend as I knew she was busy; all said yes, sounds great. Then one by one, they pulled out (bar one family). I am aware that Sue was going down with a cold on Sunday, I arranged to phone her (she will only answer her landline if you pre-book. Honestly!) but she didn't pick up. She texted me yesterday to say sorry, she'd fallen asleep and that she wasn't well enough to come over in teh evening.

I concede my text back was along the lines of: 'Oh no, one by one everyone has pulled out, I am going to cancel along with everything else this holiday'.. which is actually the truth.

She responded 'Am sorry don't like to be reliable'

I sent back 'No, you're not unreliable, you're ill; it's OK; are you working any more this week? Maybe we can get together later'

I heard nothing back, so today I texted to say 'Did you work today? Hope you are feeling better and the girls are home' (from uni).

Nothing.

Now, to be honest, I am sad and pissed off. I know she is freezing me out for having the temerity to suggest I was disappointed she wouldn't be coming to my place. I mean, she was ill, wasn't she? How dare I still be disappointed? I wonder if now I will get the frozen treatment at work? I won't see her til Jan 6th as she has a term time contract plus 'as needed'.

I just feel that I have been there for her for 3 1/2 years through all of this and have resisted the temptation of shouting 'Get a grip, he's gone off with another woman, he isn't coming home; you, for the sake of your DCs, have to make yourself and them safe. Stop being such a martyred victim here!'... but I didn't. I remained staunchly supportive.

Now I'm the one feeling somewhat let down and to be honest, a bit lonely if not rejected this week, I get cut off. Dead.

I want to just let it go but on the other hand, I want her to know I am hurt! But she wouldn't see that as it appears to be all about her, her, her. Well, I assume because she'll never call to discuss it.

Sorry about the rant!

i think you are aassuming too much from her lack of answer

i would be tempted to text her that you are feeling really down and finding it difficult to cope this chistmas - see if she bothers to rise to the occasion or not

That's not a bad idea, activate, actually. I might leave it for a day or so so it doesn't seem so contrived, but it'd be the truth!

Well, if you really want an answer, if it was me I take her into the back room, tell her you care about her, give her a hug, give her the telephone numbers of solicitors and counsellors, ask her out for lunch, tell her that you are both here to work and neither of you want to get the sack, hand her some tissues and go back and get on with work!

That's pretty much what I do, isn't it? Apart from the 'We are here to work' because she is more than aware that her financial survival depends on her being seen to be doing an invaluable job thus will get offered the extra hours!

Normally, Sue would text me back within minutes.
I did get stuff out of the relationship: a woman of my own age in a similar 'life-place' before her DH's desertion; she can be funny, irreverent, kind and generous (even when she shouldn't be!).

I say 'Right, you and I both know what you need to do, don't we? You know you have to do x, y and z to protect yourself, don't you?' To which she'd say 'Yes, yes, I know you're right but I'm not ready to take that step yet'.. (whilst he's forging her signature on her tax return!!)

when she's in a 'good place', being funny and charming than when I have to spend half an hour comforting her sobbing form in a back room at work when things have destabilized in her home life- whilst feeling slightly hopeless that any good advice I dispense (and it's only the stuff you'll read page after page of in this Topic!) will be agreed upon, then ignored

I say 'What happened?', I get the story, I say 'Oh, that's crap, nasty bar-stewart, now, what do you think would be a useful thing to do?'.

If someone was posting what you have told us about Sue, long term solutions would be women's aid, counselling and a solicitor, that would empower her to do her own thinking x

The other friend occasionally tells her to shut up and listen/let us get a word in! My DH thinks she's hilarious in that respect.

That part of your post also is something that does not sit well, it is like her life is a soap opra for you and your dh every night for him to laugh at!

mummie- yep, believe me, me and our other mutual friend have in the past endlessly suggested she needs 'Help', as in counselling, a solicitor. You can suggest the existence of water to a horse but you can't make it drink.

We tend not to much, any more, as Sue evidently 'isn't ready yet'.

No, DH and I do not endlessly dissect, far from it. DH is able, from his dispassionate viewpoint, to see things I maybe can't as I am 'too close'. He has driven Sue and I to things on many occasions and smiled about how Sue would dominate the conversation the whole way there and the whole way back, talking more loudly to drown out anything I might say! Not always, I must add, but often. Our mutual friend is a northern girl, far better at cutting to the chase and bluntness where bluntness is called for than me (I am more of a 'people pleaser'!). SHE'S the one who actually says 'Stop talking, woman and listen!! You asked our/my opinion, now listen to it!'

As for soap opera, well, who makes their life a soap opera? Is it in the eye of the perceiver? Or the perpetrator? I don't know!

poor Sue can't win, she confides and she's moaning, she's vivacious and buys dinner and she's too dominating
I quite like her tbh, maybe because i've been there with breakup, only 2dc here as well

No, blackcoffee- I think you're being unfair on me.

Sue has been a friend for 5 years. Her marriage broke up 3 1/2 years ago. I and our other friend have been there all along, in all weathers, for her. I cannot begin to tell you how many tears I've mopped, how much confidence boosting I've attempted, how much advice gently and hopefully appropriately given I've offered, how much careful organising of things to make sure she can get out of the house, how many (heavily subsidised) trips away we've sorted; the careful and diplomatic use of work contacts to ensure she gets all the extra hours at work she so desperately needs (because she refuses to engage DH in any financial matters, does all but nothing to protect herself and her family's financial future 'because she's not ready yet').

I have done all this because I try to be a good and supportive friend to her.

Her paying for our dinner was lovely. It was also passive/aggressive. I never called it dominating, but it sure means we won't be doing dinner again soon so we can watch her stretch herself further into near debt to 'prove' something unnecessary to us.

I believe my friendship was good and for all the right reasons. I like her, too, which is why I have stuck with her through thick and thin for 5 years.

So I feel justified in feeling a bit more than aggrieved that when the tables are momentarily turned, she blanks me.

And yes, poor Sue could 'win'- by perhaps responding to me as per my suggestion earlier: (17:29:27)

'God, sorry, it's a real bummer when your plans all get kyboshed, maybe we can catch up later in the week?'

yes you have been a good friend but it feels like you've always counted the cost of your friendship
'heavily subsidised'
'resisted the temptation of shouting get a grip'
just seems like you are used to her being the 'poor woman' and the relationship is uneven, with you being helpful but from a superior position
maybe she feels that
maybe buying dinner was an attempt to even things up and she is getting her life together and 'moving on' at last
who knows? have you not heard from her yet?
hope you can work things out

my experience is that people don't really thank you for listening to their problems or aren't grateful for it so you should listen to them if you have the energy for it but not begrudge them if you see what I mean.

I do totally sympathise though, I have a friend who I think is really demanding. Yet if I ever say or do anything wrong she takes enormous offense.

Don't know what to advise though other than being friendly when you next see her and asking innocently if anything is wrong. Then backing off a bit and if and when she starts moaning just distance yourself from it.

How was paying for dinner passive aggressive?
I think that is really harsh. Perhaps she had made a point of saving up to treat those who had been so kind to her over the past years

Coffee- I think any relationship is uneven in some way. Ours started on a pretty even keel. You have to remember we're all married women in our mid 40s with 8 children between us, now 9 -21 years old. We don't live in each others pockets. We used to go away on the odd girls weekend and out to the pub of an evening once every 2 months. We work in the same dept but in different areas.

As I stated, her DH had what may have been a breakdown and left, citing his inability to keep up appearances of a perfect life. There was, of course, OW. Naturally, Sue was devastated and leaned very heavily on me and our other friend as this was all to kept top secret due to the 'shame of desertion'. Friend and I respected this and were always there for the frequent bad times. There were also good times, still drinks out, a couple of w/e away with the younger children. As I have already stated, her plus points are many: funny, clever, witty, a good hostess. However, Sue has proved stubbornly resistant to any good advice, and I don't mean mine though, again, as I have stated, you will find reams of people here in Relationships stating the same stuff: protect yourself, financially and physically; get legal advice (esp seeing as OW is in the legal profession!). Not rocket science. But the thing is, and I think anyone can see this, yes, it can be a bit wearying comforting the sobbing as again on Monday you hear the nasty aftermath of her completely failing to do anything for herself over the weekend. We 'allowed' her to handle it her own way, - hence 'resisted the temptation of shouting get a grip' BUT would then be expected, in our role as 'good friends' to help mop up the fallout.

She's effectively a single mum on limited PT hours. DH comes in sporting £850 watches. She is too proud to hammer out a financial deal with him, so I do feel justified in perhaps pointing out our trips have had to be 'heavily subsidised' so she could get the hell out of her house. I don't begrudge her this- she's a friend in need, albeit a need slightly self-created, but as a friend, you accept that you have to wear another's foibles, don't you?

SHE has cast herself in the role of 'poor Sue' (hence my earlier reference to Scottish Widows!), but I feel that the friend and I have gone on treating her the same, going as far as to adapt how our friendship works to permit this relative evenness to continue.

Buying us dinner was very kind but also a bit financially foolish and unnecessary. There was definitely an element of 'See? I'm as good as you' which is very disappointing, really, as was all know she absolutely cannot afford it, and I'd hope she'd know after 5 years that we take as we find; that the tacit agreement would have been we all pay for ourselves. I had her sobbing in the staff room 3 days prior about how she can barely make ends meet at Xmas (but is having 14 people over for Xmas dinner) then pays out god knows how much on us. It may be lovely but it doesn't make sense and guarantees she will spend January in a lather of anxiety about money, which makes her more vulnerable to the rubbish her DH and his family continue to chuck her way as she does nothing to prevent it.

My point in all of this is I am perfectly happy to continue the friendship along the lines that have been drawn, the good, bad and ugly- like many friendships that go beyond a nod in the corridor.

But I am mighty cheesed off that the ONCE I went off message and, due to my slightly wobbly emotional state this Xmas, wasn't a duvet of understanding and forgiveness when she cited a cold for non attendance at my drinks do - along with just about everyone else (but has gone into work and to the pub with some work folk afterwards,yesterday, I found out...), I was cut off, dead.

difficult, thanks, sage advice.

Sadly I do suspect that things may not be the same again BUT 24 hours and lots of talking about it does make me see that really, maybe I do need to distance myself anyway from this.

I was a bit surprised when I did a mental tally of the people we work with and realise that, in fact, Sue, though always polite at work (she's good at the job, too) actually doesn't get on with an awful lot of them, she has left a bit of a trail of cooled friendships, if not broken, in her wake. She is able to work in a slightly frosty atmosphere where I can't. I hate it (which is perhaps why I am typing all this!). She has been at work since she was 18 so obviously has some stuff from way back in the past. I've been there 7 years as has the other friend.

I actually think she will manage to blank me successfully as she is prepared to work and live alone, proud and brooding, rather than lose face and get down and dirty to sort stuff out.

Ampere - I think people are being unfair to you. It seems to me all you want is a little bit of support from a woman that you've been there for over the past 5 years. Sue is selfish and seems to me to be completely hooked on drama. She won't sort out things with her DH because she wants to keep the situation going. Why else would you struggle financially if you don't have to? Probably because she'd have to find something else to make a drama out of. I'd just wait until going back to work and carry on as if nothing has happened and next time she starts up with the tears I'd leave her to it. Sounds harsh, but if you stop pandering to her she might start to draw a line under it all.

She certainly sounds like one of those people for whom it's all about them. And who doesn't have the imagination to see how they affect other people.

Don't think there's much that can be done about it - if she is determined to martyr herself and cut you off for one apparent transgression, then maybe in reality it was a pretty fragile friendship all along.

Ampere- on the one hand you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, but on the other you are deservedly upset.

I would suggest that you try to overlook this and change your tack when you get back to work.

It does people no good to offer endless sympathy. For a while, yes. But then you have to be harder. My BF and I often have fallings out becasue she is very harsh with me- but we have known each other for over 30 yrs so I know it will be all right in the end. She gives it to me straight.

There is a saying which you may have heard- if you keep doing/saying the same things, you will get the same results.

Simple, but true.

You cannot expect "Sue" to change her behaviour if you keep responding in the same way- for 3 years.

If you want to change matters you have to change you. react differently, show impatience, suggest she has counselling where she can cry and sob to her heart's content- the person is trained to listen and is being paid for it!

If she HAS frozen you out, then I would say she is not a friend anyway- just someone who is terribly self centred and introspective.
If she does blank you then you are quite entitled to be assertive and tell her what you are feeling.

it sounds as if you might benefit from reading up on how to be assertive ( not the same as aggressive) which will enable you to speak your mind in a non-confrontational way. There are good tips online.

Why don't you give her one last chance. Text her and say - I'd really like to meet up/talk to you - I NEED some comfort right now.
Then if she ignores you - you have it in black and white that she is a dependent drama queen and you have been enabling her all these years.
Don't second guess what she is thinking/doing - contact her and cut to the chase.
But even if she does come through for you - I'd defo take a step back from your 'support' of her. 3.5 years of ignoring your advice - is 2.5 years wasted I'd say.

I want to thank all of you for your advice, all points of view. It has really helped me to get some perspective on it.

I think I am in the process of re-evaluating the friendship and to perhaps expect a good deal less from it. Maybe it took this event to force me to have a little 'spring clean', if you like.

Obviously I can't know what sort of reception I shall receive when we go back to work, but if it's distinctly frosty, I might have quiet words, explaining why I feel aggrieved then leave it to her to decide whether she also perhaps needs to re-evaluate; if she behaves like nothing's happened- well, already something's happened, hasn't it?!- I will continue to be pleasant but I am certainly backing off on the support front.

Thanks all.

hope it works out ampere, you could see this as a good thing if it has made you re-evaluate - no friendship should be one way
and yes she should have bloody well texted by now!

I think it will be good for you all to re-evaluate the friendship, it will make you feel less frustrated and her have to think for herself (hopefully not find someone else)! Women's aid should help her out, she has probably been abused in her marriage from your posts x

I think it's very, very hard when you give good advice to a friend who's asked for it, and then they don't really listen, act on it or respond unless it's what they want to hear. People do what they want to in the end, and this stance of denial/shame/inability to be in the present tense on her part must be maddening for you. However, it's her journey. I suppose I'm advocating detachment. It sounds like she hasn't got a great deal to give at the moment, there really is only space for her to think about herself. I don't mean she's awful or anything, I just think when you're going through stuff some respond by being really quite self-obsessed for quite a long time. Poor me, etc.

Don't get me wrong, what she's been going through sounds awful, but you've got a need for support too.

Suggest looking to your other friends, you sound like you could do with a good face-to-face natter/vent/glass of wine, etc.

If you do, and Sue finds out, it might make her wake up a little and realise what a great friend you are and she could be investing in you, too! (Don't mean you should have a get together to spite her, though, just think it'd be good for you to have a night off from her..)