Moral dilemma: abusive grandfather now very frail and ill

[WeirdFamily]

My grandfather is 90 and is now very frail and ill. He has lung cancer, and this will almost certainly be his last Christmas.

I'm one of the only grandchildren to live near hime, and have generally kept visits to an absolutel minimum as he was (is??) a particularly nasty abuser. I'll keep the details to a minimum, as I worry about being outed in RL, but basically he sexually, physically and mentally abused my mother as a child, and continued to abuse my aunt (who has cerebral palsy and special needs and lived with him and my grandmother until about five years ago). He also behaved inappropriately with me and my sister when we were kids...nothing too major though.

I only became aware of the extent / history of the abuse a few years ago. I should add that no one (incl my mother) knew about the abuse of my aunt until a few years ago, at which point my Mum and social services moved my aunt into her own house.

My Mum has had counselling for many years and is "over" it all. She has basically forgiven him, and sees him often. I think she loves him I guess it's fairly hardwired into our brains to love our parents? My aunty lives near him, and also loves/depends on him.

So you get the picture - he was a controlling, evil man, and when my daughter was born (six years ago) I decided never to see him, unless under duress / family pressure. I've literally seen him about three times since then, mostly at unavoidable family gatherings.

However, he really is ill and frail. I offered to go and see him at the weekend mainly to make my Mum happy. I couldn't help but feel a pang of pity for him. He is bedridden and he seemed so genuinely pleased to see me, and sort of humble and affectionate (these are NOT adjectives that could been applied to him previously!).

I feel like I;m in a quandary now. I feel like he deserves to be punished for the years of misery he inflicted on people, but on the other hand I'm not really the person who should be inflicting that punishment. It's my aunt and mother who suffered...they've moved on and (I suppose) forgiven him. I would be making THEM happy by seeing him. He's is harmless now...almost blind and immobile. Should I give him the pleasure of spending more time with me and my DCs in his final days??

I've been ruminating over this for ages, and have decided to pass it over to the MN jury.

I would say go if you need to. But, make sure he knows how lucky he is that you're there.

I would make sure that his last days were full of repentance, acceptance and genuine shows of regret for the cruelty he chose to inflict on those who he was obligated to care for and love.

I don't believe people are born evil. That's why choosing to be evil is that much more chilling.

All my hope to you and your family.

I am not as bitter as that last post made me sound.

However I will NOT forgive abuse. I will put it in a box (mentally) and think of it rarely, as I do not want it to affect my life over much, but I will not say 'oh it is OK, you suffered as well, I forgive'

Yes you may have suffered abuse, but you make a conscious CHOICE as an adult to be determined not to be an abuser yourself. I am no great intelligence or compassionate person, but I made that choice, and I kep a promise to myself that the cycle would stop with me.

Adults who frighten and hurt small defenceless children should not be forgiven.

As I said, black and white.

Not all abusers were abused. Some people are just plain pyschopaths/sociopaths. My grandfather was one, abused most women in the family, friends of the family, was cruel and predatory.

In your position I would not go, as a mark of solidarity and respect to the little girls that were your mother and aunt, rather than go as a supportive gesture to her as grown woman.

Sorry you're in this position.

Just my two penn'orth as someone with an elderly abusive grandfather.

GetOrf put it so much better.

I agree.

BOTG I just wanted to say that your post has made me cry, I hope I can show the compassion that you have with your beautifully expressed thoughts. OP I would have said to ignore the man but after reading BOTGs post, who has first hand experience of such matters, that only you can decide what to do and that has to be the course of action that will bring YOU the peace of mind that comes with knowing you did the right thing.

Do what is right FOR YOU. Not what you think might be right for him, for your mother or for your dc. You don't owe them anything, but you do owe it to yourself to be true to your own feelings.

FWIW I don't buy the 'he must have been abused too' argument. As adults, we have free will. Most people who have been abused don't go on to abuse their own children. Regardless of what happened to them in the past, people make their choices and it is perfectly reasonable to judge them on those choices.

All this "most abusers have been abused" is well known to be a bag of shite. As is "being lovely to a child abuser to keep other people happy."
Fuck. That.

Also, please bear in mind, if he wasn't on his last legs, he'd be eying up your DD as a potential victim. Happy with that thought? Go visit.

I would NEVER take my children - I would NEVER give him that pleasure.

I would go - but it would be to tell him what I really thought of him, he does not deserve forgiveness and he does not deserve to be treat as the child he once was - he is still the evil adult he was.

(BOTG your post was lovely and I can see it working in some situations, but sorry, I just can't agree when he has abused children and adults, ones with SN especially)

Bastard. He deserves nothing from you. Go and visit your aunt instead, allow her the pleasure of your kind company and your lovely DCs.

"I only became aware of the extent / history of the abuse a few years ago. I should add that no one (incl my mother) knew about the abuse of my aunt until a few years ago, at which point my Mum and social services moved my aunt into her own house."

So he is frail and desperate for compassion NOW, just a few years later?

Bollocks to that.

I would go if it would keep your mother happy but that is just me and I am not you. Yes it could bring up awkward questions with your children but this is not a family secret and can be dealt with in time (depending on their age "he was very unkind to nanny and her sister" now and telling them the truth later).

You don't owe him anything. You don't have to do it. You conscience would be clear in never seeing him again. MN Jury is very wise but it is your family and only you know what is best for you and your family.

Just wanted to add that if it were me that had suffered that abuse I'd have been worried about my disabled sister living with him. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick there? I certainly wouldn't be shocked and unaware that it was most likely going on? Are you sure your mother isn't in denial? It seems there's been a lot of brushing under the carpet going on here all to please this controlling man?

I wouldn't take the DCs. That would suggest that you have forgotten and that everything is alright.

I think, however, that you should go. Going to see him doesn't mean that you forgive him. You would just be being compassionate to a man on his deathbed. It is unlikely that he is sorry in any meaningful way; but he may be.

The only time I would go and see him would be at his funeral to make sure he was really dead.

My abusive grandfather got the death he deserved, alone in his flat, undiscovered for several days. His funeral was the most basic you can imagine. No one said anything, apart from my dad who basically said 'well he's dead now - anyone fancy a pint?'

I didn't go. Apart from being heavily pg at the time, I saw no reason to break the years of non-contact just because the old bastard had died. He chose to spend his life poisoning those around him in every conceivable way. I am happy that he left this life alone. It's what he would have wanted.

JME though, but there is no way I would waste a second's thought on someone who has chosen to live as a cruel, abusive scumbag.

No No No No No a million times No.

Has he expressed remorse or done anything to atone for his disgusting behaviour? If not, I think I'd steer well clear. It appears, from your post, that the only reason he has stopped abusing your aunt is because she was moved out of his reach.

I absolutely would NOT take my children into this man's environment and, quite frankly, I think you need to be careful too. You've said his inappropriate behaviour with you wasn't "too major". I think you have normalised his behaviour - which is normal - but please take care of yourself and your family and put your needs before those of a nasty old man.

I was sexually abused by GF - the same man who devised different methods of torturing all six of his children (with my father he was merely excessively violent hence our being allowed to see him). He even read books about how different types of abuse affected children differently and then practised on them all. He is dead now but if he were still alive I would now have the courage to make him face up to what he did and ensure he was punished for it.

And, really sadly, this thread has highlighted (again) how common this kind of abuse is. How many of us are there who've suffered at the hands of our grandparents?

Curious I thought the same as you, for that reason it seems op's mother is still in denial and under the abusive spell, hence trying to get op to go along to see her Father!

It makes it hard as op will want to support her Mother and not cause further distress to her and if it was me I would come at the situation from

1. Protect your own children, keep them well away and how do you not know he is not looking at them and having horrible thoughts about them, and why put them through seeing someone in that state at all, never mind making an abuser look harmless!!!!

2. Protect yourself and what you can live with in the future

3. Support your Mother

Could you set a number of visits and length of time you will make with her to support her in her visits to him?

I don't think he deserves to be visited and I would make a point of visiting your Aunt more and refusing to discuss him at this time!

You said he was only inappropriate to you, nothing major.

If he had done that to your daughter, would you think it "nothing major"? Putting aside what he did to your mum and aunt.

Sorry, but I wouldn't go. I don't see a moral dilemma I'm afraid.

I wouldn't go.

I don't see why he deserves to see you OR your children

I think it's more supportive to your mother by not going to see him.

Thanks everyone.

I think I know that not seeing him is the right thing to do, but somehow it feels wrong...vindictive? I'm not sure. Maybe it's because he was never awful to me (fairly unpleasant, but not to a damaging extent), and because my Mum seems so positive about it all. In my "reality" it seems hardly to have happened, iykwim.

Curiousmama - I think you have a point about the "denial" aspect to this. I think my Mum is genuinely "over" it, in that it's all out in the open, and she has had a lot of counselling (ongoing) and she has gone on to have a wonderful life and be a fab mother, but I think she had the "abused" mentality that it could only have happened to her...that she was the "bad" child who deserved it and that my aunt was in a way protected by her disabilities. Obvously she was wrong, but I think if she'd had any inkling about what was going on she'd have intervened sooner. Incidentally it only really came to light after my grandmother's death. I'm pretty sure that my (in my recollection, lovely) granny must have known about it all or at least had suspicions

Oh and to complicate things, I also have an uncle (i.e. Mum's bro) who I get on v well with and see frequently. He has two young adult daughters, and although he's been told about all of this, he and his family all carry on "as normal". I find this so confusing. My uncle was treated pretty well (only boy, son & heir etc) so I guess he has a stronger emotional bond.

I really doubt my grandfather was abused himself. He was a doted on only-child from an extremely wealthy family, and has lived the most spectacularly luxurious life.

Which brings me to my dilemma part deux: I usually get given money from my grandfather as a xmas present. It's generally been about £50, but since last year he's been offloading more of his cash. He's been giving me and each of my three DCs £100. At some point in the future I guess I will inherit some of his remaining fortune (NB, we're not talking about huge sums...he lived a v extravagant lifestyle and doesn't have much left).

I feel hypocritical taking the money, but at the same time we are skint, and the xmas money would make a huge difference.

Is it OK just to pocket his money?

Well maybe he's trying to offload his guilt by giving cash. Tough one. If I were skint, I'd take it.

Yes, absolutely. I inherited some money when my horrible grandfather died; my dad got the lot and split it with me. We both felt that it was the least grandfather could do after a lifetime of abusive behaviour, especially since that behaviour included financial abuse of my dad and his mum.

The money has really helped both my dad and I, and there are no regrets about taking it. Besides, if the old bastard had intended differently he would have willed it so.