Chrysanthemum38's story

[chrysanthemum38]

OK, I have decided to consolidate al my posts on the passive aggressive thread into my own thread - well done in advance if you manage to get through it.

Background: DH and I met just over 2 years ago, married 6 months ago, moved in together two months before the wedding. I have never lived with anyone before - had a 7 year on-off relationship with a guy but we never lived together. So I'm not used to living with someone and am used to being in charge and having everything my own way.

So, our marriage so far has been rocky - we have had our fair share of arguments, but I have been putting them down to teething troubles.

This is what happened on Friday and yesterday, posts taken from another thread which I kind of hijacked but was kindly told I should start my own thread:

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chrysanthemum38 Fri 17-Dec-10 15:59:25
OK - is this passive aggressive?

DD1 just came home from school. DH said to her "So have you come in the house in your shoes just having walked through hail and ice then?"

Note: we don't live in a no-shoes house, we were both wearing our outdoor shoes - there was a little bit of hail on the drive from this morning and she hadn't left any footprints.

So his way of phrasing the question really bugged me so I said to him in the hall: "She is obviously still wearing her shoes, can you not see them?"
What he really meant to say was "DD1 would you mind not coming in the house when it's icy outside as it might make a mess in the floor."

But instead of asking her directly he makes weird comments like that which annoy me, so I will be deliberately and obtusely literal with him, as above.

The afterwards he said to her: "So, are you planning on staying in your uniform till Christmas then?"

FTR, I don't mind if she wears her uniform in the evening as it saves on washing. But I don't mind if she changes either. So I rolled my eyes a bit at his turn of phrase and when he looked annoyed at my eyerolling I said "What difference does it make if she wears her uniform?" He just scowled and shut the front door without replying.

Pretty much everything he says to her is some sort of PA comment - I hate it.

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chrysanthemum38 Fri 17-Dec-10 16:23:46

He just got back from posting our Christmas cards and was clearly grumpy.

I went into the kitchen to talk to him and asked how much the one to France had been as I had put a first class stamp on it and knew it wouldn't be enough. His response: "Does it matter?"

I said "No - just curious." He told me how much it was and carried on making his cup of tea - didn't offer me one, which is a surefire sign that he is annoyed with me. But I didn't want one so it's not an issue other than the fact he is so pointed about it.

I said "Don't be annoyed," in a nice calm sort of way ad pointed out that it didn't really matter if she hadn't taken her uniform off as it saves on washing.

He said that wasn't the point - it was that I had undermined him twice in the space of two minutes.

I need to point out at this point that DD (aged 9) is my dd and his stepdaughter and we have only been together 2 years so their relationship is quite a recent thing. And nothing I said was in front of her, it was all private.

I said that it wasn't that I disagreed with his intentions, I just disliked the way he phrased things sometimes, and gave the two examples and said that perhaps he could have found a better way of putting across what he wanted.

So he said: "So I should have told her to get her f-ing shoes off then, should I? Is that better?"

I said obviously not.

He stomped off up the stairs and as a parting shot said "Fine - fuck it - I'm not going to deal with her again - you can do it all."

I was getting annoyed at this point and firedback - "Well, you keep promising that - are you actually going to stick to it this time?"

To which the answer was a closed door.

I can now predict that he will stay in his computer room ALL night sulking, I will get no help with looking after the kids even though DD2 is only just 3 and needs to be taken upstairs to use the big girl toilet and I hurt my leg running the other day and am finding it hard to get upstairs. If I make him dinner he will probably not eat it and he won't do his evening job of washing up.

And of course it will all be my fault for daring to find fault with something he did.

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chrysanthemum38 Fri 17-Dec-10 16:48:25

Oh yes, I have had the "If you don't know what's wrong I'm not telling you" thing. And he does flouce and huff and sulk if I ever dare to disagree or criticise.

But once he is over his pout he will grudgingly admit that I do have the right to opinions of my own, followed hastily by: "And so do I, you know!"

Sometimes I feel like I'm dealing with a three year old - I just want to yell "Grow the fuck up!!"

Oh and apparently he doesn't sulk - he just prefers to be by himself and when I call it sulking it makes it sound like he is being childish.

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chrysanthemum38 Sat 18-Dec-10 14:20:41

Last night, I asked him if he wanted to eat with us, purely so I didn't make food, have him not come down, so then the food would be wasted and I would be annoyed.

He said he wasn't hungry - fair enough. I made food for the rest of us and left the washing up deliberately to see if he wouild do it, which is his agreed job - I cook in the evenings, he washes up.

Abot half an hour after we had finished, he came down to make a cup of tea. Didn't do the washing up.

So then I went in and did it. I wasn't annoyed, just curious to see if he would do it - a little test if you like. He could argue that as he hadn't eaten, he shouldn't have to wash up. We didn't discuss it.

Was it PA of me to leave it to see if he would do it?

And yes I had to deal with all the childcare, including escorting 3 yo upstairs several times during the evening to uses the loo, with my poorly leg, which he knows about.

Maybe I should start my own thread, I don't know. He isn't like this all the time, just sometimes - but it's like he turns into a totally different person - one who I intensely dislike and could cheerfully hit around the head wth a frying pan.

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chrysanthemum38 Sat 18-Dec-10 22:00:18
I do recognise myself here sometimes also. I might have the urge to correct a pronunciation, or more usually, an incorrect use of a word, e.g. "Did you really mean xyz" - when I know fine well what he meant and I'm just using it to point-score.

But usually it's just that I have the urge to say it, but I can usually restrain mysekf from actually saying it unless I m REALLY pissed off with him - I know it is destructive and bitchy.

Pointing out stuff like cobwebs means "I an mot enjoying this discussion right now so I'm trying to deflect the tension."

I tend to make an inappropriate meant-to-be-humorou remark.

I think we can both be PA - but sadly I am learning how couples argue from him - I have never been a relationship before where we argued so I don't know how to do it. So I basically do back to him what he does to me - it's bringing out all sorts of latent bitchiness in me that I really don't like.

But it gets incredibly exhausting so I prefe to just ignore the entire situation which is what I am doing right now.

He has spent the entire day either in our bedroom or in his study. I have done the entirety of childcare and ALL the washing and drying which we usually share. I took the kids out playing in the snow this morning and we made a snowman - it was great fun.

I didn't make him any tea - didn't even offer.

He went out and got McDonalds.

Basically I am ignoring his stroppy pouty fit and getting on wth my life as if he didn't even exist.

But - get this. He put my Christmas card THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR! When I opened it it had all "To my darling wife" stuff on it.

I didn't know what to do. Why didn't he give it to me, or save it till we were made up? I put it back in the envelope and left it on the hall bookcase.

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chrysanthemum38 Sat 18-Dec-10 22:20:40
"Have you asked him to not be sarcastic with your daughter?"

That's what started all this - I dared to criticise the way he spoke to her.

I went into the kitchen - my card was in the bin

I fished it out and hid it behind the cushion.

I don't know what to make of this - this can go on for several days.

The only reason I haven't left is when it's good - it really is amazing. But when it's bad it is so utterly shit. And we have talked about it so many times - he does listen - there are things we have argused about in the past that I have specfically asked him not to do - he has gone off ad sulked about it for ever then agreed not to do it - and he doesn't.

That's why I think there is hope, because he does listen to what I say and will comply - after an extended period of sulking and "punishing" me for daring to find fault with him.

I just wish we could get rid of the sulking.

It's like there is my husband - who is so amazingly wonderful and kind and loving and caring - then there is this horrible uncaring cruel cold individual who sometimes comes and lives in his body. Now I'm crying :(

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chrysanthemum38 Sun 19-Dec-10 00:29:16
Oh we just had a massive blazing row! He came downstairs and just sat staring at me with a really cold look. I turned the tv off and was ready to talk but it so quickly descended into a bitchfest. I brought up the card and was told that he had binned it as I 'obviously' didn't want it. Although he did say that he had thought it would be a nice gesture to put it through the door - which is sort of promising.

Later on in the row he called me a stupid cow and I went and got the card and ripped it up in front of him and threw the pieces at him. They are still there.

I tried to point out that you can discipline children with love - you don't have to be sarcastic all the time. He just basically made a derisive noise and rolled his eyes. I said that earlier I had asked her not to do something as it was annoying and she had looked a but crushed so I gave her a hug. He actually asked me to repeat that several times as he couldn't believe it. And then he said it was a total brainfuck as it would give her mixed messages. I said that the only message it would give is that I want her to stop doing xyz as it was a bit annoying but I still love her.

Later on I got a list of my daughters faults: apparently she is lazy, greedy, annoying, selfish and probably a few others I forgot. He ended the conversation by 'warning' me that he would be staying in his room for the next few days. I told him not to leave it too long as we wouldn't be here when he came out. He said "oh good - it'll probably be tidier then"

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chrysanthemum38 Sun 19-Dec-10 00:55:54
He just came in and called me a liar as I had gone to bed 'claiming' to be tired at midnight and I was still up texting people and listening to the radio.

He then demanded to know what I was doing. I told him it was none of his business. He insisted so I opened the rightmove app on my iPhone and told him I was looking for houses. So he said "is this how its going to go - you threatening to move every time we have a disagreement?" I told him I couldn't be with him like this and he said "that's a bit of a big statement isn't it?".

Oh and apparently him staying in his room all day is down to me also as I 'choose' not to interact with him. I just told him to go away and turned out the light. He is so nice 75% of the time but it is getting worse since we got married. Before then he was nice 95% of the time and even then I had niggly doubts. I've been putting it down to teething troubles as we haven't been living together long and we are still getting used to each other. Privately I have given it a year which will be July.

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That is all my posts from the hijacked thread.

You may now proceed to tell me that he is an arse and we should move out :(

I'll try not to come back with a list of all his good points!!!

I think you both have problems with communicating.

Would you consider seeing a counsellor together?

TBH, you both sound rather childish and as if you are point-scoring in your relationship. He didn't make me tea/I didn't make him tea/he didn't do the washing-up.

You admit that you like getting your own way, but some of your language sounds a bit controlling to me:

he does listen to what I say and will comply. Eh?

I think you both need to grow up a bit.

"You may now proceed to tell me that he is an arse and we should move out".

Actually I wasn't going to say that and this is probably where I make my first cyber enemy - but have you ever heard the phrase six of one / half dozen of the other? It sounds very much like a tit-for-tat thing that is going on.

When I met my now DH it was something similar - child from previous relationship, we moved in together. I was over sensitive to anything he said to her, and it is only in recent enough times I realised that. I over thought everything that happened between us, and saw simple, innocent things as something bigger. I blamed him for it all of course, but now I realise that we were all just trying to adjust - it was a totally new situation for us all, and I had just moved out of my parents and thought everything should be done the way I wanted it done. But the big word I learned is COMPROMISE and it was either that or lose the whole lot.

I have only read this thread, and not your other one, but I do think you both need to grow up a little (hard to hear and I am sorry) and try to communicate a bit better.

I agree with the others, you also come out of this sounding rather petty. I agree with you on the discipline thing, there is no need to come over all strict. But, he does not have kids of his own and is finding his feet, it takes time. If you are pulling him up with the background of this endless bickering/stropping, it is going to get you both nowhere, fast.

Can I just say, it seems a little fast. Your youngest is 3 and you met him two years ago. There doesn't seem to have been much time for you, or the kids, to adjust to the breakup of the marriage, and then quickly into this relationship. Perhaps this has not helped, maybe you uncounsciously are still trying to assert your independance from the last man, and it is spilling over to this one?

I agree with the other posters - you and your DH sound bad at communicating with each other, and you have descended into point scoring and keeping a mental tally about who did what or said what.

Can you:

a) try to start fresh with your DH - write him a note perhaps so that you don't get into an instant petty argument - say that you feel that you are both in danger of getting into a big rut about point scoring, back and forth bickering etc and you would like to sit down to sort it out, with no bringing up "oh but you said" or "well you would say that" type comments from either of you.

b) suggest some couples counselling as it is hard to do this together without a bit of professional objective help

c) have a very specific discussion about DD and how to parent her together, consistently. it sounds like he's feeling his way, perhaps he doesn't want to "criticise" her outright, eg give her instructions hence the roundabout (and I agree sarcastic, perhaps meant to be jokey?) comments to point out where her behaviour doesn't meet his standards.

I think we can both be PA - but sadly I am learning how couples argue from him

I agree with what you said there, Chrysanthemum, and with the other posts above. So there are two strands to this, imo: His passive aggression and your negotiation skills.

My personal view is that someone who adopts these silent control tactics - so early in your relationship, too - is most unlikely to give them up or change his style. He wants everything HIS way, apparently, without having to say what his way is and without consideration for others. The Christmas card business was beyond absurd and his attitude wrt to the other things you mentioned is, as you say, childish - not in a good way!

I'm glad you've set yourself a deadline, as that'll help you avoid feeling trapped & hopeless. One of the things I'd strongly advise, during these six months, is to get yourself on an assertiveness course. There are always loads of these around and large companies usually have one they can send you on. There's a good primer here. A course is better than a book because you get personal interaction.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, an NLP course could also prove helpful but the assertiveness is the main thing. Learn to argue properly!

Reading between a few lines of your posts, I think Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That?" might help you get a clearer fix on where your relationship's going ...

I do hope you all manage a calm & comfy Christmas!

One of the problems that we have according to him is that I am TOO assertive and independent. I have always lived on my own and am used to being in sole charge of all decisions - parenting and otherwise and I admit it has been hard for me to adjust to living with another, equally strongwilled person and yes it does descend into point scoring and other petty immature behaviours.

But I do try to acknowledge that it is both our faults and try to see how we can both improve - whereas he will never admit that he is at fault - it is always me.

Last night I was screaming into his face begging him to hit me so I could have an excuse to move out. I don't normally lose it like that - I usually struggle to remain calm in the face of his sarcastic twisting of everything I say and him telling me what I think which is usually totally opposite to what I really think.

Chrysanthemum - I think you are worse than him and he deserves someone nicer! What sort of wife posts reams of petty domestic stuff on the internet and asks other women to criticise her husband? If he was posting about you in this way I expect you would be really hurt - do you want to want to extinguish all aspects of individuality an dcharacter from him? marriage is about compromise and concilliation, love and kindness, not point scoring and bitching.

"Last night I was screaming into his face begging him to hit me so I could have an excuse to move out".

Can I just ask - if he had hit you, how would you have felt today? I promise you, when you were packing up your bags and the kids stuff (with a black eye) you would be feeling so, so much worse.

This is a morbid thing to ask, but if you were on your death bed, would you want him with you? I only fell in love with my DH when his father died. It made me think to myself "do I want to be with him forever" and when I thought of it like that I did.

I do hope things work out for you, life is too short to have a family stuck in a viscous (sp) circle of misery xx

I think that because you have only been with him 2 years and have no joint children, you should split up.

He has criticized your DD1 and that would be the dealbreaker for me.

mumsnet is here as a place where you can safely post your thoughts about your h, m, friend etc.

Don't see the problem its what you might talk about with your RL friends.

What you've described here is prob why I will never live with or marry another man again.

He sounds very moody and childish - did he really need to say anything to your dd about walking through the house if you both had your outdoor shoes on and you sound very feisty and spirited.

What's wrong with a woman not being a passive wallflower?

The combo of you and him may not make for easy living though and throw in the mix of your two dds will complicate things further.

Maybe this is all an adjustment to you moving in together but maybe you aren't really compatible. Hmmm not easy

Also higgle when people say marriage is about compromise, conciliation and that it usually means that one partner defers to the other. And its usually the woman who makes the compromises, smooths things over and puts up with alot but there are exceptions of course.

Don't think I've ever seen a marriage or long term live in where the partners are truely equal - I wish I could say I have.

chrysanthemum, do you think he could be feeling insecure about his role in the family. It sounds a little like he is trying to be a father figure to your dd but almost can't do right for doing wrong iyswim.

If you think this relationship is worth keeping, you both need to have some honest communication, as other posters have said.
It seems to me that you are both 'acting out' because you are struggling to cope with underlying feelings.

Could I also say Chrysanthemum that you don't need for your H to become a physical abuser in order for you to leave the relationship, you can make the decision to leave for any reason you like, you don't have to make you leaving his responsibility.

You poor thing, Chrysanthemum.

Losing it and screaming for an irrational crisis is a sure sign that your head's being messed with.

Before anyone has a go at me - it wouldn't be if OP was in the habit of ranting, picking fights, etc. But you're not, are you, Chrysanthemum? It happened because of him. His weird sulks and mind-games have made you feel you have no say in your own life.

I think you have to end this. I'm sorry.

You are trapped in a pattern of comunicating which descends into tit for tat and PA on both sides. You may not be able to rescue yourselves from this - and this is what counselling is for.

If you wnat to save the relationship, book some appointments with Relate or similiar.

he WAS being sarcastic etc with you dd, but you too can employ direct 'positive' talk rather than criticism.

DH: "So have you come in the house in your shoes just having walked through hail and ice then?"
OP: "She is obviously still wearing her shoes, can you not see them?"

DH: "So, are you planning on staying in your uniform till Christmas then?"
OP: "What difference does it make if she wears her uniform?"

OP: "How much was the postage?"
DH: "Does it matter?"
OP: "No, just curious."

OP does the laundry, takes kids out to play in snow.
DH remains shut in room through all of this, then goes out to get himself a McDonalds.

DH puts OP's card through the front-door letterbox.
OP puts card on hall shelf.
DH throws card in the bin.

DH labels a child "lazy, greedy, annoying, selfish"

DH calls OP a liar because "I had gone to bed 'claiming' to be tired at midnight and I was still up."

Can someone please explain how this is just a communication problem, six of one & half a dozen of the other, or the OP's fault?

I would agree with others but it is that bit: '*he gave me a list of my dd's faults' thats crucial to me.

Ok i agree with others that you both dont communicate well but your behaviour has nothing to do with that list.

I wouldn't care if 'he is insecure' or 'he is adjusting to parenting'. Because your dd only has one childhood and you cant afford for her to be 'trial' so that someone is learning parenting.

If he sees 'faults' about your dd and thinks is normal to label her then you have to put your dd's emotional wellbeing before him.

Grace. It may not be just a communication problem but Chrysanthemum could have told her dh that his way of addressing her dd had annoyed her and why, rather than making the comments she made or not confronting him with his behaviour.

If she openly expressed to him how his behaviour is affecting her and he continues behaving in the same way, that would ring alarm bells for me.

Just to clarify, that's not to say I think Chrysanthemum is to blame. It's more that if he doesn't see that his behaviour is bothering her, how can he change it?

Well as regards your daughter, it sounds as if he doesn´t know how to directly ask her to do something.

Apart from that, do you even like each other?

I can´t imagine being so petulant with anyone.

I said that it wasn't that I disagreed with his intentions, I just disliked the way he phrased things sometimes, and gave the two examples and said that perhaps he could have found a better way of putting across what he wanted.

So he said: "So I should have told her to get her f-ing shoes off then, should I? Is that better?"

I said obviously not.

He stomped off up the stairs and as a parting shot said "Fine - fuck it - I'm not going to deal with her again"

AFAICS, Chrysanthemum, you responded sympathetically, clearly and assertively. You shouldn't have to give a grown-up examples of how to ask a child to take off her shoes/uniform, but his reaction was hardly that of an adult, was it?

To clarify. I don't think this is Op's doing, I think he has a problem with communicating, but she is jumping into the hole out of desperation perhaps, making it worse. For example, getting the 'Right Move' app up and saying she is looking for houses. That's retaliation, and it doesn't move it forward.

I agree, where the children are concerned, it's important the op defends them from her dh's attitude. Thats why I made mention of the apparant speed of the relationship, soon after the youngest was born. Maybe there was an unconscious need for a 'father' figure, and yet, not this sort of fathering, where all he seems to do is critiscise them.

I am a step parent and God knows it's not easy. I would never, ever speak to my stepson the way the dh here did. That was way out of line.

There definately needs to be a change to how communication works. OP, do you think he would attend marriage guidance?

I see what you mean, but I think the guy sounds like a bully, plain & simple. I had the impression Chrysanthemum was looking at Rightmove for herself - as is her right - and he demanded to see what she was doing. The way she tells it, she wasn't stroppily trying to prove a point as privately checking out her options ...

Sorry for talking about you in 3rd person, OP.

sincitylover - when you truly love someone aned work with them to solve your problems life gets better, it doesn't mean one person always giving way, quite often when you see the need to compromise the other person will see it too - I've been married 27 years and I think we relate as equals and share responsibilities.