So what does she mean

[baffledness]

OK, unsure H here who needs a bit of female advice about DW's behaviour. We've been together around 15 years and have 3 DC's, all under 10. We seem to be slowly growing apart, and no amount of going out together, away for weekends etc. seems to make any difference. She's a SAHM and I appreciate it's a handful managing the needs of a mix of school-goers and pre-schoolers. I know my needs are very much secondary to the DC's, and I do my best to support around the house, school run etc. I'm always first up to get the kids washd and dressed so DW can grab an extra 10 mins in bed. Despite all this she is getting more remote, and the displays of affection are now really few and far between. Love life is non-existent and I've just kind of accepted that and don't really expect it to change.

Anyway, thats all the background pre-amble ! I guess my reason for seeking your sage advice is that we've had some pretty heavy discussions this year about our life and relationship, and a number of times she has said that she loves me, but she is not in love with me anymore. Is that a feeling that any MN's recognise - is that normal in a marriage do you think. I can't bear the thought of not being around my DC's all the time, but at the same time, the thought of being trapped in a loveless marriage, eventually going down the affair route etc. is no more appealing.

Any female advice gratefully received !

I also meant to say that my marriage was at it's lowest ever point when DD was a young teenager, simply because she was quite vile to live with and caused endless arguments, there were times, between 13-16, when I hated her, quite honestly.
We are the best of friends now she is grown up, thankfully.

I think it's significant that both of you have said that your feelings for eachother have changed. However, it seems as though you are on different pages regarding your barriers to splitting up. Your wife is expressing hers as fears - and they are understandable. You express yours as deep sadness that it has come to this. I understand you picking up on her not mentioning love, but did you say you loved her, in this conversation? Do you?

I accept also that you have had many conversations about this, in vain. Therefore it occurs that you need to change the process. Something different needs to happen. Have you thought about relationship counselling? The injection of a third party and a different type of conversation, could make all the difference.

I think if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, nothing will change. You will both just get older and more bitter. If you remain convinced that your wife is not harbouring any secrets, then counselling could help you to process your thoughts and make a decision. It can help you to part well and with dignity, if that is what you decide - and it can promote positive change if you stay together.

I've only just found this thread. But my gut instinct is - please try counselling before you both give up. It might just hasten the separation; but whatever the outcome, it should help both of you break out of the endless circle of talking but getting nowhere.

DP and I used Relate last year to help us get out of a cycle. The outcome for us was that - a year after moving in with him - I moved out again, but explicitly in the hope that it would give both of us the space to look at things afresh. It was a really tough thing to do, but for us the outcome was overwhelmingly positive and we are now happier and more in love than ever before.

There are no guarantees, but sometimes it can help just to break out of a pattern.

I wonder if you have any shared interests? You mention that your wife has evenings to herself, and trips etc with girlfriends, also that you have had nights out and weekends away. Maybe the weekends away etc are not helping - perhaps expectations are too high?

Is it possible to find something completely different to try together, something fun, maybe something where you get to see yourselves and each other in a new light and removed from your normal 'roles' - climbing lessons, an organised activity weekend, murder/mystery night - whatever, just something new and different.

do you mind if i ask but when you were having sex do you think she genuinely enjoyed it and were you able to communicate what you both wanted sexually in an honest fashion?

not being funny but i think a lot of women back away from male partners when the sex is more of an ordeal than a pleasure for them. the fear is that even a kiss or a hug might end up leading to sex that they don't really enjoy (and sometimes actually find uncomfortable) and so back away from any level of intimacy.

both sides are to blame - women for not being more vocal in what they want / need and men for not asking.

kep - To be honest I don't think she really enjoyed - certainly has never said so. Tended to need to be slightly 'merry' as well.

baffledness - then this is all part of the problem. it might be hard after all these years but do you think you could start a more open discussion about it. it's easy for women to dismiss themselves as frigid after a while when actually it's just a natural response to not having particularly enjoyable sex (sorry if that is a harsh assessment it's not meant to be just honest).

could you start by offering to give her massages? tell her you don't want it to lead to sex you just miss touching her and feeling close. perhaps after a few of these non sexually challenging massage sessions you cuold tell you you want to give her pleasure and just try stuff, tell her as soon as she doen't like something just say and you will stop.

there's no harm in reading a few sex manuals as well. honestly us women are so complicated sometimes when it comes to sex i think we should maybe come with an instruction manual (different one for each day of the month).

kep - thanks for that advice. We have explored what you suggest - the interest is simply not there it all becomes very embarrassing very quickly (and ultimately for me pretty soul destroying)

then you have to decide if you can really stay longterm in such a sexless relationship and discuss that openly. if she genuinely thinks there is nothing she or you could do to improve it then you have to be honest about how that makes you feel.

i don't think most people would go into a longterm relationship if they thought it would never fulfil their sexual needs. it's not a reasonable situation.

don't do the crummy thing and have an affair. we all know that's weak, cowardly and a recipe for disaster.

Thanks for the responses - an update over the weekend was that I have rented a place for a week to get out of the house to give us space to think about what we both want - whether we ant to try and be together, and if we do, for what reasons.

We'll see......