Please help - Need advice on dh's drinking

[Esme69]

My dh fell in the door at 4am sunday after his office night out. He is the boss, and he was the last to leave, ending up in a dingy sleazy night club locally nicknamed "Sin City" where people go to cheat on their spouses.

Am not worried that he was cheating on me. He was with his brother and some staff members, but the point is that he was seen by all and sundry, including his own staff, in our small town, pissed as a fart and in a dive of a night club.

At home he has a wife and 5 kids. On the sunday when he finally surfaced, he was fit for nothing all day. This makes me very angry on behalf of the kids as they, (and I ) deserve better than this from their dad on a sunday.

He was just back from a weekend piss up in london, with his brothers, and 4 weeks ago he went out with his brother and fell in the door at 3am, pissed again. He is 41 years old.

When not on the piss, he considers himself as as someone with an image in the town, and a reputation to maintain. Sadly when he drinks, all this goes out the window.

His binges have plagued our marriage for 10 years. We have been in counselling 3 times. I FINALLY realised in the last bout of counselling that I was totally co dependent, and the more I tried to control or restrain his social activities the more he resented it and pushed against it, and we ended up in a place where he was binging les, but hated me for being his "keeper."

Yesterday however, he came home from work and told me he felt really bad about letting me down, (he always says that, even though he is letting HIMSELF down as much as anyone) and that from now on, he wants me to sort of give him a pep talk any timed before he goes out, reminding him of what he did at his xmas party and telling him how hw should be behaving. In other words he wants me to go back to the role i played before,even though that bred so much resentment in him and so much stress in me, and also in a way puts the onus for him not behaving like a tit on to me, which in a 41 year old man is in my opinion, quite pathetic.

I feel very despondent about this issue, quite depressed in fact, as I really really thought when we finished counselling in October that I had made some kind of breakthrough in understanding how to deal with this, and that by trying to control his behaviour I had perhaps contributed to it. Now I realise it was nothing to do with me. He is exactly the same, in fact slightly worse since I stepped back from things, and I find this profoundly depressing.

I feel it is unfair, and misguided of him to expect me to talk him through his paces befroe he goes out as if he was a teenager.

I feel no respect for a man that expects his wife to do this, and if i cannot respect him, then I dont know what becomes of our marriage.

Would really appreciate some advice or thoughts from anyone who knows about this sort of issue.

I kind of know about this sort of issue as I have a DH who likes to go out and has over our 15 years together got totally hammered from time to time. Not for many months though.

It is awful to have this hanging over you, and I would not agree to such conditions if I were you. You cannot police his actions and he should not be asking you to. It seems his self respect has gone out the window.

I would refuse to give him any sort of pep-talk. My way (as suggested by our counsellor) is to state my expectations before a night out - this is a very 'live' issue for us as my DH has his work party this thursday and I have not yet stated my expectations and I suppose I am hiding my head in the sand, not knowing quite how to phrase it.

But I like the idea in principle - you say what you are happy with/what you expect and it is up to the other person to act in that way, or to ignore your request and take the consequences of that.

How would that work for you? You could agree in advance to do that.

The 3cs re alcoholism:-

You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

Unless your H is willing to tackle his issues alone and without you to gee him up or carry him through that process, there is no helping him. No amount of joint counselling will (or has) achieved anything here because he has not wanted to address the reasons for his alcoholism.

You cannot rescue and or save someone who ultimately does not want to be saved. I do not mean this unkindly but as his wife you are the last person who can help him. And you should not.

You need to talk to Al-anon and get support for your own self. You at least recognise that you are codependent which is a state that often happens within such unhealthy relationships.

You are not responsible for him; no pep talks and no taking ownership of his drinking problem. No more covering up for him, no more excusing him.

Seeing all this (and they do) within your marriage is not doing your children any favours either; they could well go onto develop emotional problems of their own or even take up with alcoholic partners themselves primarily because of what they are seeing here. You are both teaching these young people damaging lessons.

Have you ever thought about leaving him?.

Thanks Loves2cycle, but the thing is isnt that the same thing in a way as me having a pep talk with him before he goes out on a night out.

I mean, we did have a talk before his office night out, he wanted to reassure me and tell me that he would be home around 2, wouldnot overdo it etc. This chat was a few days before he went out, then again just befroe he left ot go out on saturday night he restated his intentions.

And then he went out and did the opposite.

What pissed me off is that he set his own coming home time, I did not lay down any laws, he decided himself what was appropriate, made a point of telling me by way of reassurance, then just went off a did what he promised he wouldnt do.

He knows my expectations anyway, ie that he will have a few drinks, enjoy himself, be sensible, and not disgrace himself in public.

He is not going to change is he...if marriage, 5 kids and a positions as a local businessman AND healthcare professional is not going to keep him out of a drinking den at 4am then nothing will/

Attila, yes, I have, but there are a lot of good things in our marriage too and I wanted to work with that.

IS he an alcoholic though? He does not binge on a weekly basis. He goes out once a week with mates, out 9.30 home by 12.30 or 1am, all fine, but this is a long standing meet up with very steady guys who have no interest in getting hammered.

The problem is if there is an event or ngiht out thats not this regular gig, like the office party, or a few months ago when entertaining a client, (arrived back 3am totally hammered) or if one of his brothers arrives home from London, he goes out with them, and thats always a worry, as potential for a binge, like happened a month ago.

He does not drink daily, and rarely if ever drinks in the house.

Not sure if he is an alcoholic, but he does have that potential, and either way, he drinking has affected our marriage so in that way it definitely is a problem.

Yes I see what you mean esme - it does sound like my suggestion was the same as a pep talk. Sorry, it sounded really sensible when my counsellor suggested it. But I can see it being OK where you haven't already laid down these expectations - as I haven't - I have just tended to say nothing except 'have a good time' and then withdrawn/taken kids out when the 'good time' ended at 2ish with a very obviously hammered DH home asleep on sofa or loo or wherever. But if you have already gone through that phase of stating what you personally find reasonable, then you shouldn't have to do it again and again and again.

It sounds as though, even if these occasions are rare events (the getting hammered as opposed to the weekly drink), your DH is unable to stop himself from drinking on those occasions and goes too far. So he has got some level of a drinking problem. My DH has not had a binge drinking session in months, but I feel fairly certain if he went out with a certain sibling of his, it would result in a binge as he seems unable to say no to this sibling, who looks to me to be an alcoholic, just a very high functioning one which disguises it. So, to me, my DH appears to have a drink problem, but only with this sibling in particular. Is that alcoholism or just making very bad choices?

Does he take you seriously when you say how much his drinking affects you and your feelings about your marriage and desire to continue? Do you feel he is listening to you or just hoping it will all blow over and peace will be restored until the next time?

Thanks Loves2cycle - A lot of what you say resonates with me.

Do I feel he is taking me seriously? Yes, I think he is, in the days AFTER the binge. He is remorseful and full of promises that he will try and not let it happen again.

After 10 odd years of listening to this, I do not believe it. Becuase I know that after about 6 or 7 pints, his judgement is totally impaired, and if he finds himself in the wrong company, (and that would include two of his brothers incidentally who also binge drink) then it is anyone's guess when he will make it home. It is totally unpredictable. THe only time he goes out that I am happy in the knowledge he will come home is his regular weekly thing with this group of friends, all lovely guys, who have told him he is a prick, in the past, when he has mucked me about with this behaviour.

The fact is, I cannot trust him when he goes out on any other occasion. In fact, it is a given he will overdo it.

I can forgive the odd blowout, but this is different. This is destructive and disruptive to our family life. It has eroded my respect and love for him.

He is either an alcoholic, or an incredibly selfish man who wont change his ways because he is not sufficiently motivated.

Either conclusion I find massively depressing. I really feel very depressed tonight about all this, as it seems that after years of struggle, stress, counselling etc, what I thought was a new beginning for us has all been a big delusion on my part. I feel very , very stupid for having believed he would change.

I just wanted to second atilla's suggestion of al-non. My step-father was an alcoholic and al-non dragged my mother back from the brink of despair. They are a fantastic organisation.

I also found this link for you in the hope that it might be useful. Hope you don't mind.

Thanks ZisForZebra - I did go to an alanon meeting some months ago, they were all lovely, but I felt a bit of a fraud there tbh as the stories these people shared of their alcoholic loved ones were horific, and my dh is nowhere near as bad as that, his drinking is only very bad occasionally, but its often enough to have affected us and our family life, and it is the mistrust and the dread I feel every time he goes out that is hard to live with.

I feel very detached from him at the moment.I am trying todo the minimum, kiss him goodbye when he goes out to work, and when I go to bed at night, but I dont WANT to do that, I am making myself. I actually just dont want to be around him at all at the moment. And his response to this, is to just shut down. He wont respond when I kiss him, wont even turn his face to meet me, and when I told him how sad i was feeling last night about everything, he more or less shrugged and went off downstairs to watch tv.

Esme,

"and my dh is nowhere near as bad as that, his drinking is only very bad occasionally, but its often enough to have affected us and our family life, and it is the mistrust and the dread I feel every time he goes out that is hard to live with".

So why do you live with these feelings?.

It actually does not matter that his drinking is very bad occasionally, the fact that this is often enough to have affected you, you as a couple and your family life is indeed a problem.

I would urge you to call Al-anon again; you need their support.

What are your children learning from you both about relationships here?. This is no legacy to leave them, it truly is not.
You've had 10 or so years of this already, you really do not need or want another year let alone another decade of this. Your children won't thank you for staying with such a man either.

Esme don't feel a fraud. Everyone's situation is different and you're no less worthy of help just because you perceive his drinking to be less severe. His drinking is causing you and your family emotional pain and Al-anon can help support you and them with that.

My step-father's drinking went in cycles of being really bad so my mother would threaten to leave him. Then he'd stop drinking or have a period in rehab and everything would be good and rosy again. Then gradually the drinking would begin again and mum would threaten to leave and so it went on. Al-anon taught her that she couldn't control or improve his drinking but she could protect her emotional wellbeing.

Please please call them.

I will zisforzebra- my dh more or less told me tongight that I am just going to have to accept that he will "go off the rails" from time to time and that if i love him then i will accept this flaw.

The problem is that I cannot love him if i dont respect him and anyway, he is quite arrogant and self satsified in himself, he seems to think that just because he is good in all other ways (he is not, btw, but thats another thread) that I should be accepting of this and be thankful that he doesnt gamble, womanise or take drugs.

FFS - What can you say to that, its beyond arrogant imo.

Esme, do try AlAnon again - yes, you will hear of people living with dreadful, daily alcoholism, but the organisation is there for anyone worried about a drink problem - and you are. They will offer you support and a sounding board.

It is beyond arrogant and you deserve better. angry

I want to give you a {{big hug}} but I've been knocking around MN long enough to know that's not the done thing so I'll give you a [chin up, look after yourself] emoticon instead.

Sorry. Got carried away with the [['s there!

Thanks Tanee and Zisforzebra.

Btw Zisforzebra, what is that link to? I tried it but it said the page was not available.

DH barely speaking to me today. Thinks I am being totally OTT in my attitude to this.

Sorry Esme, the link was an accident - I put too many [[ on my !

I don't think you're being OTT at all, he's doing something that is eroding your love for him and making you feel insecure. Just because you love someone it does not mean that you have to accept behaviour that is damaging to you from them.

If he thinks you are being OTT, he needs to prove that he can go out with those people and come home, sober, at the time he specified. I suspect, from what you've said, that he won't be able to which proves that you are not being OTT.

Esme, I'm sorry to hear you are living like this. Of course he can be an alcoholic drinking like he does - it is not the amount he drinks in total, but the effect that it has on him when he does drink. That he can cause your family so much distress yet be unable to regulate it leads me to think that he has a big problem that he is unwilling to face.

Check out the sticky posts at the top of here. And go back to al-anon if you can. Forget about the differences between your stories and think about the similarities.

I'm looking at this from another perspective. It comes across at the start of your post that you're more concerned about your husband's image in the town and how that reflects on you. Is he the local doctor and so you think people expect him to be superhuman??

Someone going on a night out now and again, coming in pissed and then hungover the next day - I believe this is not unusual behaviour.

I wonder why you are with him - no affection comes across for him and you are not even bothered if he were to sleep with someone else.

It may not be unusual behaviour for a single person but for someone with 5 kids to do it is beyond anyone's pale, is it not? Unless she gets the same opportunity to have a night and a day off regularly as well, of course.

Bakingtray - I think Esme isn't bothered whether he slept with someone else because he was with people so it's unlikely, not because she doesn't care whether he did or not.

Also it's very hard to feel affection for someone who consistantly lets you down and seems not to give two figs for your feelings or concerns.

Hey OP. Think the advice given by Loves2cycle is actually really good. There is a difference between her suggestion and a pep-talk. What your DH is asking for is to be told how to behave - i.e. he is trying to offload his responsibility on to you. With L2c's suggestion you are simply stating what you would appreciate from him as a husband in terms of his behaviour. You're not telling him what to do but you are giving him the opportunity to demonstrate his respect and love for you through his actions. I think he needs the difference clarified to him as well.

I wouldn't worry about trying to work out whether he is or isn't an alcoholic (that conclusion will only be hugely relevant if he comes to it himself). The significant issue is that his drinking has a history of causing difficulties in your relationship and needs to be addressed. He acknowledges this himself.

Sounds like his issue has got you both in a bit of a negative cycle in terms of daily life, communication etc. Is there any chance of having a chat where you acknowledge that you don't want this issue to define your relationship and both commit to also focusing on some positives as well? I realise that the times when he goes off the rails affect everything, but issues become so much hardder to address when they have caused communication and mutual respect to break down. Don't get me wrong - I understand why you are struggling to respect him because of his behaviour (and his response suggests that he understands as well and is quite embarrassed/ashamed about it) but change will be tougher if this becomes the only thing on the table. Hope that makes sense. Really good luck to you.

That really does make sense Deepheat, and i see the distinction you make between the pep talk and loves2cycles suggestion, there is a small but very significant difference in couching it in those terms.

Your advice helps me at this time, because as you say, this has become the only thing on the table now, and I couldnt see a way forward. It IS very hard to discuss these things when my respect and love for him are ground down to very little, but I recognise that if i give in to that we just stagnate.

However, I have changed in my reaction to this issue now. Before, I used to rant and rave, cry and not speak to him for about a day, and then just get tired of this, and go back to normal me. This time its different. I genuinely feel that I have reached a turning point in that, I simply CANNOT just pretend that it is all fine now after a few days. I really feel very detached from him, and he sees this and realises that this is different from my previous reactions and for that reason, is, I think/hope taking it a bit more seriously.

I said very clearly to him the other night that this sort of behaviour will have consequences, and that if he chooses to break my trust and indulge in behaviour that upsets me and disrupts our family life, that our marriage will (and already has) suffer, and that will have an impact on our intimacy and friendship. I used to say all that before and then just go back to normal, but I just cant this time, I think its about boundaries now. I cant change him, but I can protect myself and my own emotional health, so I am just being true to my own feelings and not minimising them any more for him.

My DH behaves like this - occasionally (maybe 5 times a year) he will totally lose track of time, how much he's drunk etc. and get home totally assholed at 4 in the morning.
I don't have a problem with it, its very occasional and he feels like sh*t the next few days anyway.
He pushed it too far a few months ago stayed out until 6am at the casino, by which time I was genuinely scared for his safety, we discussed it fully over the next few days and I am confident that he won't go that far again (though I daresay he'll do a 3/4 o'clocker again)
If all else is well, then maybe you might think about your own reaction to it, which as I read your post above, you do seem to be doing. I think that as this has gone on such a long time, but your change in response is recent then you need to keep communicating as much as possible with your DH so that he understands that something has changed and that he needs to change too, for your and your marriages sake.

Yes Hillyhilly - I take your point, I do need to communicate with him that I have had enough of it now, after 10 years of marriage.

I am no killyjoy. I love a drink and a good party myself, god knows I drank like a fish in my misspent youth but I have seen him stagger up our garden path at 5am when I was up breastfeeding our 3 week old 4th ds and try and urinate in to the kitchen sink, and there is a world of a difference between a man who is gregarious and likes a drink, and the drunken, staggering person who barely recgonises his own wife when he gets home.

I wouldnt mind but when he is sober he is the most image conscious person out there, insists on going to mass every sunday, (not because he is particularly devout but because he thinks it is important to be seen there) whereas I am a spiritual person and a christian but would rather not attend church personally as I am a lapsed catholic.

I used to sneer at the whole american thing of "boundaries" until I learnt what they are and how I had none in my life with my dh. Not any more. I am setting my boundaries, and we are in for a bumpy ride I think. I have tried to keep quiet to keep the peace but that has not worked for me, so time to change my tack.