Where do I go from here?

[DadIsSad]

Dad of 2 small children, 4 and 1.5yrs. I'm really unhappy - love my kids to bits, but not sure I have a "relationship" with my wife any more. Have had sex once in the last 4 3/4 years (do the maths - I'd be suspicious she was having an affair, but there are no other indicators, and I don't know where she'd fit in the time). There is no intimacy - whilst I'm a normal bloke and would really love to have a physical relationship, I think I miss that more. I'm not sure she loves me any more, but then I'm not convinced I love her either. I used to try, but there's only so much rejection you can take, so I don't bother any more. Given we had sex last time because she wanted another child (I wasn't so sure at the time, but very happy to have them both now), and it was "practicing", I almost feel used - it seems she wasn't actually interested in having sex with me at all, just in getting pregnant.

I feel like I'm just going through the motions of life - I also used to compete in sport to a pretty high level, but being a dad has limited the amount of time I have for that, so I'm now really unfit. Given a lot of my motivation came from being successful, I find it hard to even be bothered now when there seems like no prospect of ever getting back to where I was. No longer see all the friends I used to have through that - just interact with them on Facebook, which seems really sad. Not even sure I have any real friends - I suppose I should be grateful that at least I still talk to my wife, and actually really get on quite well with her as a friend most of the time, as otherwise the only people I talk to regularly are people at work (I'm not really that into my job either).

I reckon given the opportunity I'd have an affair, but there's no real worry from that perspective, as I don't really meet any women either apart from mums when I take the kids out - though it is at least nice to get a little attention from that direction as I can pretend they're smiling at me when I'm with my little one who is very cute. Have even thought about seeing a prostitute, but the idea doesn't actually appeal that much, and I'm sure I won't feel better about myself afterwards.

That's a lot of stuff - and pretty heavy for a first post I guess (it's not a troll BTW). Not really expecting any useful advice, or even much in the way of sympathy from women on here (I'm sure there is a huge amount I've done wrong), but maybe it's a bit like standing up at AA - the first time ever I've even tried to articulate these thoughts, though it makes me feel pretty sad reading back through them.

and you have obviously talked to her about this - what did she say?

relate have sexual counselling

Tell her all this stuff. Sounds like she's as bored and unhappy as you are.

Do you have expectations of your wife that she is unaware of ? Are you expecting your wife to responsible for your happiness ? You seem to equate love with sex. She may not feel like pleasuring her husband after a hard day slogging her guts out looking after two young children. She isn't rejecting you , she is rejecting the idea of having sex with you, its different.

I think I would expect to have a sexual relationship of some sort with my other half. It's all part and parcel of a healthy, affectionate and loving relationship, and it's particularly worrying that there's no intimacy of any kind.

4+ years is an awfully long time. No wonder you feel rejected. What's her response when you try to talk about this? Do you continue to try to hug, kiss, hold hands, etc, or have you stopped trying that too?

Have pretty much stopped trying any sort of intimacy now - though that's only more recently. Eventually frustrated with feelings of rejection there too. I so wanted to try today, but it feels like being a teenager again, unsure whether any advances will be welcomed. Of course the other thing I'm expecting is that any attempt at affection will be seen as an attempt to have sex. The frustrating thing is that we do actually get on well a lot of the time - it's dead easy to talk to her about inconsequential stuff. I'll keep trying to work at it.

I'm really not very good at talking about this sort of thing (stereotypical internet nerd bloke I'm afraid - far, far easier to talk to strangers on an internet forum), but have never got any positive vibes when I've brought it up - usually just getting a dig about things I don't do in return (I should do more around the house, but I am a very hands on dad easily doing my share of looking after the children). Not sure where the idea of my wife being responsible for my happiness comes from - though I reckon there's a good chance I might feel a bit happier if I felt more wanted - it's not really that great for the ego.

Of course having thought more about it today, there are a couple of other big issues I "forgot" before:

We've not had a single night out as a couple in 4 years - went out to the pub for food a couple of times with the first one asleep in the pram, but nothing since. Everything is family - I get the feeling she thinks that us as a family is far, far more important than us as a couple. Circumstance doesn't help as we have no relatives living locally and both sets of parents are quite old and not really keen on babysitting. Also when I've brought up the idea of babysitters, my wife has rejected on the grounds she's embarrassed by our house being messy (it is cluttered which is all my fault, but nowhere near How Clean is Your House standards - clean but lots of stuff around) - don't know if that's just an excuse as she doesn't want to leave the kids, combined with getting at me for being untidy.

Then there's the real biggy - I'm actually very scared by the idea. I alluded up there to the lack of difficulty we've had in conceiving. The thing is she's not going back on the pill (understandable I suppose if you're not having sex, though I wouldn't dream of trivialising all the other reasons for not being on it), and IIRC 3 out of the last 4 times we've had sex when she wasn't on the pill she's got pregnant (I did write that correctly, but I'm not spelling it out any further). Having had condoms fail twice in my life I'm just not sure how much I trust them, and I really don't want to have any more children - given my wife's been getting rid of the baby stuff I have to assume she doesn't either (at least not with me).

I dunno - I read back through that and it's clear lots of it's my own fault. It's just that I'm consumed by jealousy of all the abusive bs I read about on here who still have a sex life, not to mention most normal people who get to have more than one attempt at making their partner pregnant.

If you're having trouble talking to her, I recommend emailing how you are feeling to her. You're pretty articulate and if you're feeling like a teenager, maybe resort to some teen methods. Love notes, emails, texts even?

Also the baby thing is a big deal. Having really good reliable contraception is really important. You might want to think of getting the snip.

Your two posts are really articulate, maybe show those to her?

speak to her.

Also do something about your lifestyle, it's obviously making you unhappy. Could you do more excercise, more stuff together or even see your friends more?

Do you still love her?

Your two posts are really articulate, maybe show those to her?
How do I go about editing out the 3rd para of my first post?

I think the snip idea sounds like a good one to start the whole talk to dw... and rewrite the posts on here for her and give them to her if you find the rest of it difficult!

Your self esteem sounds very low, have you thought of ways to improve it, like getting back into sports, or seeing a counsellor for yourself?

I think you would do better to find a way to talk to your dw, and put your energy into that rather than an affair or some nasty sti from a prostitue imho!

Re the sex thing, lots of women say they are feeling 'touched out' because small children demand a lot of affection and physical attention, what with cuddling, breastfeeding etc. But not having sex in 4 years isn't really good for either of you or your relationship. It is important to be a couple as well as parents. Maybe she feels that if you make advances you expect it to end in sex, and that puts her off sex if you see what I mean? Maybe you could try showing physical affection but not see it as a means to an end.

Re contraception, totally get you. If your sex life gets back on track you could see about contraception for her, but there's a gap. You could have the snip if you are totally sure you don't ever want to have another child. She might appreciate that, as she has gone through 2 births etc.

OnEdge says 'you seem to equate love with sex' but I don't think you do. Love and sex ARE (or should be) very closely connected, and being repeatedly sexually rejected can make you feel rejected emotionally, I think most people would agree with that.

I would say don't edit your post. She needs to know how you are feeling and that's part of it.

It sounds a bit like you are sunk into lethargy which is really hard to get out of but if you know there are things you could do to improve your situation vis a vis your DW, such as doing tidying, then I think you need to start. Sge may be feeling very resentful about it which is translating into lack of affection. It will also remove tge excuse about not wanting babysitters which I think is pretty essential for you to be able to spend a bit of time alone and thrash out what's going on and what you want, and just see each other as people again rather than parents. How old are you btw? The snip might be an option but obviously only with your DW's agreement. You really need to talk to her! Good luck.

Oh and I agree that doing exercise again is a good idea - forget about the competitve side, do it for tge endorphins - but don't let that become an excuse to do less at home. does your wife have thechance to do anything outsde the home too?

You say she complains that you don't do enough around the house and counter that by saying you are a hands-on dad, which is a non-sequitur.

Do you do your fair share of housework? (fair = half)

don't underestimate how unsexy it is to be expected to work as someone's unpaid skivvy, or how corrosive of esteem and love unequal division of household labour can be.

You mention the house us cluttered with your stuff, and it sounds like this makes her unhappy. Are you a hoarder? Could you limit your clutter to one room in the house and leave the rest free for your family?

Finally, don't have an affair. That will just cause a world of pain. If things are that bad tell your wife you need counselling as you are wondering whether it is time to separate. And ffs don't pay for sex

So I've tried to talk - we got somewhere, but it's clear it's not just me who has communication problems about this! Clearly the important issue is contraception, but she really didn't seem to want to talk about it at all - dismissing the idea that I got the snip with a laugh that I'd never do it.

The thing is I have tried to get a bit more touchy - but feel I'm not getting anything back. Has culminated in her going out for her work do this evening, reportedly drinking far more than she usually does, enough that I'd normally expect her to act a bit drunk and lose her inhibitions a bit (a lot of the sex we used to have was when she was drunk). I wasn't after sex at all, just a bit of a cuddle, but she's just not interested - I even said when we were in bed and she says she's cold "do you want a cuddle?", but nothing.

Can't sleep now (even though I'm really tired all day and need the sleep).

...yes I am a hoarder, but gradually working on tidying / getting rid of stuff. The thing is, this isn't exactly something new for me - it just seems it's now become an issue.

gosh, it sounds really hard. You have a right to intimacy as well (as well as sex). Keep trying to tell her that you are really interested in rekindling the relationship and ask her opinion on what you can do to help improve the quality of her life (if it's tidying whatever)

I might get flamed for this but I think there comes a point where some couples agree to pretend they don't know about the other persons infidelity. I do know of (have heard of is probably more accurate) couples where the woman has pretty much given permission for the hubby to mess around with other women. It worked for them. Others choose to open the relationship for this purpose.

I'm only bringing this up because there are several options here. I am not recommending you cheat on your wife, but I am saying that if she isn't willing to provide you with a certain amount of physical affection, she may not mind you getting it elsewhere. (I know that for many women this sounds nuts, I know many women on this forum have been really hurt by infidelity, I'm just saying that all couples are different.)

But I really recommend talking to her and finding out what will work for her and you. Keep being supportive and if the contraception thing seemed to make a impact perhaps agree that you'll have it done (if you are ok with that).

I don't think it's ok for her to keep stonewalling you though. That is hurtful.

It's not improving. Have had phonecalls at work twice this week to rant at me about something the kids have done whilst I've been looking after them, but I've not been aware off (I can't keep an eye all the time - have to cook food, hang up washing etc. - she seems to think I was off playing on the computer or something, but that's not actually the case) I really can't say I enjoy being phoned at work solely for the purpose of being nagged at.

Now sleeping in the spare bedroom at her suggestion - though I was hardly reluctant as I'm really getting tired of rejection. Busy looking at places to live as I'm just not sure I can take this any more, but I'm so scared - apart from anything else I don't earn all that much and will be broke, and neither am I sure I'll actually be any less lonely, given my complete lack of friends (at least whilst I'm here my kids love me).

Just trying to remember what it feels like to be happy.

Your kids will ALWAYS love you. You're their Dad.

Even if you and your wife separate, you will still be their parent.

Don't know if anybody's even reading this, but I don't have any other outlet, and otherwise it's just going round in my head. Random stuff ahead.

I'm torn between loving my kids and wondering if things wouldn't have been better if we'd never had them - at the worst it would be a lot easier to split up (if I was where I am now and didn't have kids I wouldn't even have to think about the decision). Don't think I ever really actually wanted to have kids, but didn't object all that strongly when she did. Definitely didn't want 2nd one, but was persuaded (still trying to work out how much such a major decision was based on the prospect of actually having some sex for a while - oh the irony that we only had it once). Yet strangely I find myself loving the younger one far more and getting it back from him - don't know if that's just down to ages as the oldest is at the point where he's often a pain, yet the youngest is still cute.

I so want to get out of this "relationship" right now - just hate the thought of what it will do to the kids, and still finding it hard to imagine the idea of actually ever finding somebody else and being happier. The only obvious thing is that it's going to just make it worse. I do wonder whether the decision will be taken out of my hands sooner or later though.

Would love to get back into the sport, but realistically I'm getting old and injury prone anyway and will never get back to where I was - is so hard to motivate myself knowing that and having let it slip to the extent I have. Just have no idea where I'm going with my life.

I suppose the one upside is that for the first time in my life I'm actually looking forwards to going to work at the moment!

Oh, and last week we were out with the one person locally I know who I could consider to be a friend, and his family (we know them, but it's the one family we know where I reckon I'd stay in contact if we split). Overheard my wife discussing having babysitters with his wife, and commenting how much money it was when she really didn't want to go out that much. I'd happily blow £100 on a babysitter if we could have a fun night out which might help our relationship, but I just don't think she's that into me any more.

BTW the comment about kids loving me - didn't expect them to stop loving me, but whilst I'm here I do at least get daily interaction with somebody who wants to cuddle me. Though part of me wonders whether the best thing to do is quit my job and go off to the other side of the world and do things I've always dreamed of (if I can work out what of those things I can still do now I'm old and unfit) - I'd miss them like hell, but they're young enough to forget me, and I'm sure they'd survive just fine with their mum (she might even decide she does actually like men and find them a new dad - she at least does have plenty of contact with single men).

Does your wife know you are looking for somewhere else to live? Is she aware that the situation is as bad as it is for you?

No - I dread the idea of raising it, at least partly because I suspect I might come home to find my stuff in binbags outside. Considering leaving the paper open at the rentals page.

We still really don't talk about stuff. Right now we're not talking at all.

I find it hard to believe she doesn't have some idea how bad it is for me. She's taken to calling me grumpy (she has a point).

You need to talk to her. Leaving the paper open on the rentals page is hardly going to make her more or less likely to want to talk and resolve the issues. She might see that as you having made the dicission to go through with it and pack your bags.

I have read all your posts and I get the feeling she is quite keen to bury her head in the sand.
If your wife wanted out of the marriage she would probably have left you in no doubt. Instead I get the feeling that she wants the marriage, the family and everything that goes with it, but she doesn?t want sex. You mentioned that even before the children your wife would be more interested in sex if she had been drinking. Was your wife inhibited and shy before you married and had the children?

Look here DadisSAd there are two issues you need to address and you are muddling them up,

First is there a chance of saving your relationship with your wife? If there is you need to learn to communicate and it wouldn't do any harm at all to suggest a last ditch effort with Relate before making a decision to run away to Oz or wherever.

Secondly whether you regret them or love them to bits you have two chidren who deserve your love and loyalty. You will still have a moral responsibility to support them and it is perfectly possible to be a good Dad without sharing a bed/house with their mum.

I understand how miserable you are and how you are flailing about making wild suggestions to change things but you are coming across as a bit whiny and passive.

Why dont you make a list of the important things you need to talk about with DW and ask her to sit down and go through it after supper when the kids are asleep. How could a bit of straight talking make things any worse than they are now?

Good luck. Everybody deserves to be happy!