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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Middle-aged mums - would you call time on this marriage?

29 replies

missmollie · 09/12/2010 18:47

I post sometimes but have name changed as too recognisable to RL friends otherwise.

In short, married 14 years, 4DC (all under 13). Have been in Relate since October. My counsellor now tells me I am in an abusive relationship and that people in abusive relationships often don't recognise that they are in one (because they are often the product of one and don't know where the boundaries of abuse should be set.)
I was rather taken aback by this. On the face of it my DH is a good provider and has come to be a good dad but he does not communicate well with me and sex is virtually non existent. However, I truly crave the intimacy I don't get. (I feel I do the lion's share of everything, and support everyone, but there is little support for me. This has gone on for years. In fact I wish I had confronted all this earlier, and wonder how much I have become acclimatised to accept the marriage I have.) I thought the counsellor's 'abusive' description was an exaggeration. I would have said my DH is 'unthinking'. He is certainly not violent or verbally abusive.

I know this next bit sounds unbelievable, but it is true : my counsellor told me that another man - who should be hands off territory because he is married, but who has become a good friend - is 'good for me' because he fills the emotional and supportive gap that DH doesn't. (Of course WWIFN would say he is not a good friend of the marriage, nor I of his). I have had sleepless nights over this man. We have kissed, but no more. (I can separate out the two relationships, and believe I would be having problems in the my marriage whether or not I had ever met OM or not.)

I really want to know at what point in other people's marriage did they call time. When had you had enough of 'not good enough', 'not supportive enough', and did things change for the better when you made the break?
I am nearly 50, I am still fit and slim, but time is not on my side! Is it a risk too far to break out by myself in the hope that I can find something better than I have now? Did you recognise that your marriages were abusive, or did it have to be spelled out to you for you to see that you are. I am very confused, as you can probably tell, but would like to help me think of questions which challenge my marriage. I feel I have stuck with it and worked at (compromising) it for years. Where/what is the tipping point for you?
Really grateful if you have got to the end of this, and have some thoughts on it. Truly genuine request.

OP posts:
FioFio · 09/12/2010 18:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted

Laquitar · 09/12/2010 19:03

I think you have the right for a beter life if you are unhappy.

But i don't like the idea 'i will leave my dh if i'm sure i have another man' that some women seem to have.

You might find a perfect man (at any age)
You might not.
If you are very unhappy and you want to leave your dh i think you should do that with the view that you might be on your own (which is better than an unhappy marriage anyway).

OnlyOneLife · 09/12/2010 19:46

I'm in a very similar position missmollie -I'm 45 and have realised that I need to end my marriage. It has taken a long time (years) and months of therapy to get to this point. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you need another man before ending your marriage - that is actually the last thing you should be doing.

You said "break out by myself in the hope that I can find something better than I have now" - you need to believe that being on your own will be better than what you have now before you are anywhere near ready to call it quits. You shouldn't see it as a race against time to try to find another partner.

I can't answer your question - it's different for everyone I expect. I suppose when you no longer love your H and don't hate him, but when your predominant feelings are indifference, and when have realised that the marriage is no longer a positive factor in your life then it's time to go.

The friendship with the OM is probably an exit affair - it has made you realise what you are missing and what a relationship should be like, but don't mistake it for being the next big thing in your life. The next big thing should be you finding yourself and defining yourself as an individual and not defined by being someone's partner.

missmollie · 09/12/2010 20:21

Onlyonelife - Have you told your DH you are at the end yet?
I think this will come as a huge shock to mine, even though he has known for sometime that I have been frustrated and unhappy. I think he thinks things have improved enough. I just feel worn out by it all.
I am not afraid to be by myself. In many ways I feel very alone in my marriage anyway...but I would like to think that someone else would come along in time. I think my OP made me sound more reliant on someone than I really am.
Abusive : by not considering my feelings and riding rough shod over them; not recognising his day to day behaviour is (albeit unintentionally) often very hurtful; not being on 'my side' in general; very little physical contact.

OP posts:
animula · 09/12/2010 21:09

Oh dear. I'm just going to ramble a bit, and hope that in the midst of the haystack, there might be something useful for you ... . sorry in advance if there isn't.

I think that you sound a bit shocked by what your counsellor has suggested. And that's interesting. They're usually quite hesitant about saying anything quite so abrupt. Are you sure that's what s/he said?

If so, here's the thing: You are in the position where a counsellor is telling you your marriage is abusive, but you aren't at the point where you can see that. It suggests to me that you probably need the aid of a counsellor (I would also recommend good, helpful, thoughtful friends, but not everyone has that,) to work out what is going on/has gone on that you can't see that. I suspect that will be a process, and one that will have to deal with your relationship pattern, probably from childhood models, and your self-esteem.

I suspect your counsellor is trying to get you to see that it is OK to demand, for yourself, that your need for intimacy is recognised as legitimate, and should be met by people you share your intimate life with. I suspect there's more, that you can't "see" but your counsellor is trying to get you to see.

All of this suggests to me that you need to do this work before entering another relationship - just in case. It's not necessarily the case that if you walk out of this current relationship, straight into another, that you'll end up repeating the same pattern unless you intervene. But the fact that your counsellor is effectively telling you that you don't "see" stuff, and that your boundaries and sense of rights and self isn't as firm as it could be, does, frankly, augur a little ill.

Wrt "friend". Well, on the one hand - he's propping your marriage up, isn't he? Without him meeting your emotional needs, I guess your marriage would be even less tolerable.
On the other hand - his friendship is restoring to you an idea of how human relationships ought to work, and that you may have value. Important and necessary things in restoring your self-esteem, and getting you to a point where you feel your life is worth fighting for.

Because that is what this is all about really - what are you prepared to do, how many people are you prepared to make uncomfortable for you to have your life? How valuable is your life? I'm guessing you are going to need to do some serious reflection and work (with the help of others) before you get to the point of being able to adequately answer that question, and adequately value your life.

That's why it's so hard to answer your initial question. On the one hand, of course you can leave at 50, people leave and start over all the time. And people find love at all ages - if that's what they want. On the other hand, it's not easy to leave, and to do that weighing up of your needs, everyone else's, and the (disappointing) present versus the (terrifyingly) unknown future. I suspect you're going to need more help to do that.

Wrt a relationship with this man. I honestly don't know. I wonder what you'd think about him if you'd gone through the process of self-recovery? He might be a truly special person but i worry a little that you might not be in the best place to judge that just yet. There again, maybe you are. I don't know. On the plus side, he's got you thinking about what life outside/in a transformed relationship might be like. That's a good thing. Whatever else, you should hold on to that thought.

Wrt leaving your marriage. Well, you sound as though you're not there yet, if you're still asking. I suspect that if you take the path to self-awareness, you might. You'll certainly insist on changes. Which your dh may not be able to (adequately) make.

Wrt abusive relationship. Here's the thing, if both of you were the type that isn't big on lots of emotion and intimacy, your relationship would be fine. but the fact that it is making you unhappy, and you are having to actually go out and find affection elsewhere means it's not working. I'm guessing that that is what your counsellor is picking up on? Is your counsellor suggesting that your dh witholds on purpose, as a form of control? Are there other forms of abuse going on? You don't need to answer any of this, but they are questions you should ask yourself.

OK - all of that is just rambling. all of it is hugely conjectural. I don't know your situation, so it could all be wide of the mark. but perhaps some of it may be of use - to spark off thoughts - to say "no", or "yes", or "maybe" to.

good luck.

HerBeatitude · 09/12/2010 21:26

I agree with this: "you need to believe that being on your own will be better than what you have now before you are anywhere near ready to call it quits."

To answer your question:

Where/what is the tipping point for you?

For me, it was during yet another soul-searching (on my part) conversation where I tried to analyse what was going wrong and how we could fix it and I realised we had the same conversation every few weeks and had been doing so for a year. And I had a sudden vision of myself 10 years down the line, older, angrier, sadder, sitting at that table having the same pointless conversation.

Basically, when I realised that nothing would change and all the talking was a waste of time and energy. When I realised that I was the only one trying to save this relationship, and you can't save a relationship on your own.

missmollie · 09/12/2010 21:31

animula - that is extremely helpful. I don't think you are wide of the mark at all in fact. I really appreciate you taking the time. Sometimes it is not always easy to remember the words the counsellor says when I think back, but yes, she definitely said about it being abusive and the OM being a good thing. It's good to be able to re-read your comments and think about them.

OP posts:
missmollie · 09/12/2010 23:25

Her beatitude - you walked away then? What was the fall out like?

OP posts:
NoNamesNoPackDrill · 09/12/2010 23:50

Hi missmollie

I turn fifty soon and it is a turning point for me. I have been unhappy for a while and found myself falling for someone married and unsuitable. The affair was an escape and was going nowhere. This was a wake up call and I started counselling.

I have slowly woken up to the idea that my marriage has been abusive. My DH does not hit me or shout but he subtly makes me feel bad about myself. I am not a good enough wife or mother, my house is not well run, I don't work hard enough or achieve enough professionally. My DH always looks miserable but denies it. I am afraid of him and sex has become an ordeal.

I have run away. I can't give a rational explanation to my family and friends as to why I have left this apparently kind clever man who provides for us all. But somewhere deep down know that something very wrong is going on and I need to live apart.

My counsellor reassured me that that is enough reason. But it is hard when my DC my parents and all my friends seem keen for me to go back.

Do you have a plan? Can you support yourself Would your DC leave with you or would you have to get DH to go? I told DH about my affair and he forgave me. He refused to leave the family home so I did. Sometimes you just have to save yourself!

Good luck

elephantsaregreen · 10/12/2010 05:30

oh this thread strikes a cord with me too. How does one know when it's time? How indeed?

I am at a similar point. I believe I deserve better, but I am not yet at the point where I think I would be happier on my own, not quite.

I'm terrified of solo parenting, even if it would only be part-time.

But I think there is more to life than this existence. No deep connection, no intimacy.

I am planning to go to counseling too, to work up the courage and a plan to end things so I can give myself another chance at true happiness.

I want to be with someone who cherishes me. But it's not the right time for me. Kids are very little and money is very tight.

NoNames... sometimes I feel like running away too.

missmollie · 10/12/2010 14:59

(Tried to post earlier...didn't work!)
Oh gosh - two more! How many more of us.

I think I am at my tipping point now. I feel I don't want to be like this next Christmas (as you say Beatitude - still in a cycle of the same conversations.) And this morning I felt very strongly that I have reached the end. I have yet to say that to DH.

NoDreamsNoPackDrill - I can't run away unfortunately. I am totally financially dependent on my DH and am a SAHM of 4DC. I used to have a great career and gave it up for the family. The work I used to do does not exist anymore, so I can't just resume it.

elephant - The counselling has been very useful for identifying the triggers in the relationship that make me sad and hurt. I have had the habit of covering them up and moving on, barely recognising the pain and damage they cause me. Unfortunately counselling is very expensive. I think the situation has been building for years and I have given it so much time.

My DH knows I have been unhappy. We have talked about things honestly many times, but really in the end, nothing changes that much, so I think something more drastic is called for. I am dreading the impact on our family life/money/children, but I feel more than ever before that next Christmas could be really good if I am brave enough now to call time.

OP posts:
Megancleo · 10/12/2010 20:10

Having spent the last few years celebrating Christmas and New Year whilst inwardly depressed that nothing would change, I was sooo happy to make the break befor last Christmas and at the age of 46 look forward to living life as I wanted again. Only afterwards did I truly relise how emotional abusive and controlling my ex had been (over the years it had come to be the norm) and how much of my identiy I had given up.
Don't believe you have to stay because of being a SAHM of 4dc, believe me there is always a way, probably not always easy and comfortable but well well worth it..life is too short to live like half dead.
I agree with others though, do it for yourself and dc if you want, not for another (often totally wrong) rushed relationship with new partner-good luck!

elephantsaregreen · 10/12/2010 20:19

The other thought that gives me hope, which is kinda hard to imagine at this point, is that I might meet someone amazing, who cherishes me and with whom I can feel like myself and who understands me and cares about having a great relationship. It seems like an unreal dream at this point, but recent there was a thread on mumsnet about all the great partners out there and there were many many women who posted about their amazing, sometimes second partners who are amazing.

Another life, another love, is possible, but not if we stay in emotionally dead relationships.

Also, I believe that your children deserve a mum who is is happy. What are we teaching our children by staying in unhappy relationships?

nothing good... would you want your kids in relationships like yours?

maybe like most big steps in your life, you have to plan it carefully, get legal advice on your options, build your resources and support before you feel like you can make the break..

fluxy3 · 10/12/2010 20:28

Hi, just feel I have to post too... I'm 44 and have 3 children and a year ago decided to end my marriage.
It was the scariest thing I have done.. but god, I do not regret it. I wished I had done it sooner... I realised that something was not right years ago.. but stayed. I 'stumbled' upon an article about emotional abuse 3 -4 years ago and it was my lightbulb moment... I wish I had gone then.
My 'H' will not accept the marriage is over and is in complete denial, making my weekends, in particular, a misery with his harrassment.. but I don't have to live or put up with him any more so it's a small price to pay.
I won't say it's easy, but personally I could not spend any more time with someone who made me feel so miserable and unhappy ( and him enjoying his control over me...)I too had lost 'me' and I hated the way I was behaving being around him...
Like Megan says, it's only now, that I really see how unhappy I was and how emotionally abusive he was. Life is too short...my kids aren't 100% alright, but their mum is a lot nicer to live with these days and I'm better equipped emotionally to support them.
Good luck.

theangels · 10/12/2010 20:52

(Have namechanged for this- don't want to be recognisd)
i left exDp 3 years ago, I am 45 now, i was with him 10 years, we lived in separate places for part of it due to work which probably prolonged a bad relationship as the pressure was building up when we were together. He was v difficult to live with, undermined me, had a bullying way about him etc. I never did accept it, i tried to get him to see for years what it was like to be on the receiving end of his behaviour and I thought if only I could get him to see that, he would not do it anymore. I always told him I would not live with it forever. He got better for a while for various reasons; we had 2 DCs (not really planned). after a while though he reverted to his usual self. Lots of drama later I called time on it. He was also happy to end it becasue he could not understand what it was that made me unhappy. i just wanted to be free to be cheerful. I am much happier on my own; I am stil single. DCs spend time with both of us in turn. I would suggest- ask yourself if this relationship will realistically ever be happy. If not- do you really need to waste any more time? There are no guarantees of what happens next, you may or may not be happy, but at least you'l be in charge of your own life with no-one to blame and no-one to stop you doing what you want.

gettingeasier · 10/12/2010 21:14

XH left our emotionally dead 17 year relationship for an ow last christmas.

Certainly hasnt been an easy year but yes I was exisiting before and now I am alive with highs and lows but not the low hum of misery and boredomn.

Thank god he had more guts than me

HerBeatitude · 10/12/2010 21:50

Missmollie, re fallout - not sure, there wasn't any really.

it was 9 years ago and I've been a lone parent ever since - I've brought up both my DC's alone (DS was 2 when I split with ex and I was pregnant with DD).

Being away from him gave me time and space to work out why I had settled for such an emotionally unsatisfying relationship in the first place and made me realise that the issues which had led to me thinking someone as inadequate as my XP was a good-enough man to actually re-produce with. Now that I am happy, I realise that I was always unhappy before, though at the time I didn't realise it. It was like living a kind of half-life and now I live a full life. The long term fall out for me, has been an amazing sense of joy and contentment, that I couldn't imagine existed when I lived with XP. And hopefully, happy, emotionally healthy children. Smile

HerBeatitude · 10/12/2010 21:53

that should say "...the issues which had led to me thinking someone as inadequate as my XP was a good-enough man to actually re-produce with, were much more deep-seated than I had realised at the time of the split."

The thing about being in a bad relationship, is that denial kicks in because that's the only way you can bear to keep going. You lie to yourself to stop yourself seeing what would make you unhappy and miserable to see, so all the time, you are living with unhappiness and are unable to address it.

gettingeasier · 10/12/2010 22:14

Nods slowly at HerBeatitude , very true indeed

missmollie · 10/12/2010 23:07

It is very interesting and useful to read the comments.
I think I am just realising how unhappy the marriage really makes me. Over the years I have felt I've got to keep on trying, to keep on putting up with things, in the BELIEF (rather than the hope!) that they would lead to happier times...that we have to stick through thick and thin etc.
It reminds me of the recent thread about 'working at marriage' - and what that means.
Part of me feels I have to exhaust all avenues to prove I have tried. I think I am now at that point where I realise I am manufacturing avenues which is really putting off the evil day. Now I feel calmer and ready to call a halt. DH is working still this evening, and will be all day tomorrow. I will be lucky if we get time to talk before New Year...says it all really.

OP posts:
almostgrownup · 10/12/2010 23:45

Missmollie, I was also told by a counsellor that my DH was an emotional abuser, and was shocked at first by what she said. I think persistent coldness, not answering when you speak, always telling you what you ought to do - you do come to recognise these as some form of abuse. It takes the joy out of existence. Yes I was on the verge of calling time, but ultimately was not brave enough, and strangely also felt too much pity for him. Things have since improved. I saw that I needed to be more assertive and stand up to him. In a way I was granting him the power to behave like that.

However, if your spirits are being deadened day by day, I would go. The OM is a red herring.

NoNamesNoPackDrill · 10/12/2010 23:58

The thing about being in a bad relationship, is that denial kicks in

HerBea that is so true. I had made myself almost completely numb rather than feel anything in the last few years. It was a coping mechanism but not a good one.

Now I am out of it I can afford the luxury of feeling pain, hurt, joy, hope and excitement. At the moment I am feeling lonely and miserable but that is better than numb resignation. And I truly believe there is a better future ahead.

And I have just name changed for the fourth time as DH keeps tracking me down.

HerBeatitude · 11/12/2010 00:10

missm, we are so brainwashed by the idea that we have to keep a relationship together at all costs, that the need to feel we've jumped through every single last hoop, to make that happen, is very strong.

And at the end of the process, we realise that we're the only ones who have been jumping through those hoops. The other fucker was sitting there reading/ playing computer games/ drinking / insert alternative to hoop-jumping here...

HerBeatitude · 11/12/2010 00:11

Nonames, it's so great to feel fully alive, isn't it?

I didn't even know I was numb until the numbness wore off.

NoNamesNoPackDrill · 11/12/2010 00:20

HerBea I was signing up to extreme adrenaline sports canyoning and jumping off cliffs just to see if I could feel anything.

Now everyday life is quite painful enough. That is probably a good thing Xmas Hmm

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