Let's say you suspect someone has a personality disorder of some sort: what can actually, practically be done?

[Unprune]

We've all known for years (from an early age, perhaps) that my brother is not quite right. He's 34 now, and yesterday my grandmother told me a story of a particular way he'd treated my father, and I thought, oh for goodness sake, this isn't going to stop, he isn't going to grow out of this behaviour (until a few years ago my family were still excusing him as 'just a bit young for his age' - unbefuckinglievable!).

I don't have any contact with him, and I like it that way. He's a scary man. But my father obviously still wants his son, my grandmother is very stoic, and I just wondered if anything could hypothetically be done if he allowed himself to be helped.

The defintition of a PD is that it is a long, enduring and unchanging set of behaviours that remain the same throughout a person's life.

Also that the person can be called on their behaviours, but these never change, and the person makes no attempt to change, even knowing that their behaviour is unreasonable or unusual.

In other words...this is their PERSONALITY.

In the case of some PDs, the person actually continues or indeed increases the behaviour BECAUSE they know that it upsets you or even scares you.

Also, Pds have no self-awareness, or they appear to have none. They typically 'get the wrong end of the stick' about all sorts of things, they are incapable of initiating any action.

There are many variations on a theme, so you can get hystrionics...antisocials...malignant...and so on.

If you know a fair bbit about the PD you suspect your relative or friend has, you can actually test them on their reactions, and predict the outcome. I can do this with my mother and exH, which I do now and again just to remind myself not to get sucked in.

They always pass! Not to be recommended with psychpaths however!

UA - Totally understand that PD cannot be diagnosed on-line!!!! Can I give you some other characteristics though as I find it hard to differentiate and know you have alot of insight - lacking in empathy - never able to see another person's point of view or understand how someone else might be feeling, purposely cruel and repeating same behaviour which knowingly upsets another person, self-important, moralistically lacking, presents to the world they are the victim and believes their own truth, superficial, not capable of deep feelings and attachment, wanting to present a perfect image of themselves to the world- therefore even though their behaviour in private is wrong they are calculated enough to not step in public over the line which gives any indication of it eg behaviour-wise and does not break the law, contradictory, hypocritical, plays mind games, very concerned with their physical appearance.

The thing is cindy...you will never know if the person actually has a PD, unless it is one of the types which allows some self-awareness.

The only thing that helps you is that finally you know there is absolutely no point whatsoever trying to change this person or accommodate them in any way shape or form.

This sets you free, as there is nothing you can do and it's most definitely not your fault!

Have a look at some of Sam Vaknin's writing...he is a narc, so you have to read between the lines, but he is quite good on Ns.

There are many sites which describe the different PDs.

GAG - can you explain what you mean by one of the PD's which requires some self-awareness? I do not think the person in question is very self-aware.

Well, not all PDs involve a false self. If as a child you have been treated very badly, or spoiled, a false self is constructed, which helps deny the intolerable or confusing circumstances the child finds themselves in.

It is the denial of the real self that is the reason behind some PDs being unable to see their own behaviour as unacceptable, and to attempt to keep the false self as the truth as a protective mechanism.

Self-awareness would mean the abandonment of the false self, and this is impossible for some PDs to carry out. Their false self protects them, and their own real self is not something they can face.

I do think actually that most PDs do actually have flashes of self awareness, but they cannot carry through with these moments, and they certainly can never accept that there is anything wrong with them, as that would be to really abandon their own mind's protection.

There are at least 2 MNers who have PDs whcih allow self-awareness, and they have been able to get some help with their issues.

I know at least 2 Pds with NPD who do , in some rare moments , know that they are not 'normal', but do not have the capacity to follow through with all that is required to accept their real selves, and to accept that they are not infallible humna beings. So they shut off those moments, and revert to what keeps them safe.

Yes. An image of themselves, which is set in concrete, which, whereas in counselling, a person can become more self-aware and know their 'self', the person in question does not believe that there is anything wrong with them and has never admitted that there is anything wrong with them, or they have ever done anything wrong to someone else. In comparison, I would admit that ok I did ........ wrong and I take responsibility for that and I understand the effect it had..... and I would mean it genuinely; the person in question seems to believe they are the kindest, loyalist, honourable, decent, caring, considerate person in life. Just trying to ascertain whether you would call this narcissistic or psychopathic.

I will have to come to my own conclusion about this as the person I describe would never, ever present themselves for treatment of any kind.

I do not know which is sadder...the person with the personality disorder or those round them who indulge them and pander to them.

My brother's wife is a taker with a personality disorder (the paranoiac one) and an alcoholic, everything in the family revolves round her, my brother is effectively personality disordered himself as he never goes out, or has friends round and the children have had a lot of their joy of childhood taken away as their mother has to be pandered to and sod what anyone else wants.

My dad tries to keep the peace (he was systematically abused by his mother so is trained to accept shit) and visits my brother when the wife is out. Personally I find the idea of a 49 year old man ringing his dad saying "she's out for the next 2 hours, come round!" very sad and abhorrent.

I look at my 2 (15 year old) nieces and I can see one is being sucked into the "pander to mum, mum's wishes are the only important thing" and the other niece who quite clearly wants out at the earliest opportunity. It is desperately sad and in a lot of cases avoidable. Unfortunately bullies are very good at working out who they can bully and dominate and they just do it, no concience at all. And the family deny the whole thing "she's not that bad really" and all that crap.

I distance myself to a certain extent but I hate the fact my brother is unhappy and could be happy, but seems to have lost the ability to do anything about it. He says with any luck, she'll drink herself to death soon. But she is just the type of person who will live to 109 spewing bile to all those around her who can still stand it.

As UA said up-thread, it is mooted that narcissism and psychopathy are actually the same disorder, but just at different points on the same spectrum.

It's a shame about those children Miggsie. Often there is one child who follows in the footsteps of their disordered parent, and one who escapes. I think in many ways it is easier to be the follower, as to escape and try to come to terms with what has happened to you as a child is a very difficult road to travel.

An ex of mine used to call his disorder his 'weakness' , and certainly it has been visible since his childhood. He had a very, very cruel father, and an ineffectual mother. Even as a young teenager I could see that he had 'something missing'. I have known him since we were both in our early teens, and the glimpses of the lovely boy that was are very painful to see. He has grown into a very nasty and manipulative man, just like his father in fact.

The enablers of these people have of course been trained themselves in that role. Very difficult to escape.

I think (hope) that my own children have escaped this curse.

One of the side-effects of dealing with this whole thing is the temptation to think you are going mad, and that there is something wrong with you as you have been told.

OP-what can actually, practically be done? You have already done it-emotional detachment and well established boundaries regarding contact (preferably no contact).

Cindy-Imho, what you are describing is very similar to my sister. Covert narcissism, just in my opinion -no- I acknowledge I can not diagnose her even with more than 4 decades of exposure to her (but no more ).

Generous to a fault and the fault is that the generosity has an agenda: buying a license to degrade the receipent.

Miss Congeniality: collecting people so she can be Queen Holding Court. Or Captain of the eating team (2 dinner clubs). And in this collection of people, there is a certainty that someone at some time will step out of the bounds of her 'template for a correct life' and become the next deserving target for diminishment.

Over-functioning proves her superiority through blocking others chance to perform: Neighors commented that they just couldn't decide what color to paint their foyer and hallway. Asked Sister to feed their dog while they were away, which Sister did (loves to "save" people); but she also painted their foyer and hallway for them (as a surprise). She never mentioned their reaction...Perhaps she didn't quite get the 5 min standing ovation and undying adoration she was expecting? She does have personal boundary issues, to say the least.

Sorry to go on about her, but hopefully some of the examples, here and from others, can help you clarify and validate your frustration.

For me, the madness was that I was going into dormant mode to cope with her...that is: self-induced depression. I used to call it shifting into the special 'Sister Gear' for the duration of exposure...rationalization for more crappy treatment of myself.

No More.

It sounds like some of you have absolute nightare siblings. Whether they would recieve official PD diangnoses is almost irrelevant - their behaviour towards you and the rest of their family is abhorrent so you are well within your rights to cut all contact.

If they got into trouble with the law and went to prison they may end up receiving a diagnosis but it would unlikely to actually change anything. I do understand how a dx may be comforting to you though. It is a complicated business diagnosing PD and not something that can be done over the internet! So to answer your original question, probably not sorry. A dx will not stop your parents pandering to him or leaving them evertything in their will unfortunately.

Occasionally in my work as an asst. psychologist we do come across narcissistic/anti socials but they are generally not there because they have any real insight into their disorders but because they have secondary mental health issues, often addiction problems/depression but also to rant at you about how awful their partner/boss/landlord/parents are and how everything is someone elses fault!

We do recognise how damaging these people can be to those around them, even as professionals we are not immune and have to have lots of debriefing from our superiors as they really can be unsettling and make you feel like shit, even when you only see them for an hour a week!

This website might be helpful for some of you, has lots of info on it and a support forum www.outofthefog.net/index.html

Gosh this thread is an eye opener, what a lot of us there are!

My mum's brother is the same. He has never worked, stolen from his mother, thrown her down stairs, tried to sexually abuse me, beat up my sister, did abuse his brother (who died very young and never recovered from abuse) , alcaholic, depressive, obsessed with his health/life/opinions and not interested in anyone else and on and on.

Basically I cannot say one thing positive about this man and yet the family give him chance after chance. At least he didn't have children. I deal with it by having nothing to do with him but were he my brother it would be more difficult so i feel for you with siblings like this.

Interestingly my grandmother, his mum, is convinced he is this way because he almost died from meningitus as a toddler, was given last rights and seriously ill. I wonder.

Yes, it is hard with someone you live with.

perfumedlife

Or was he cosseted and pampered for ever more because he 'nearly died'?

I worked with a woman with a total nightmare for a DD - a real screaming hellcat, excluded from school, violent, promiscuous at a very early age, foul mouthed - this was way, way beyond a teenage hormonal phase.

Her mum always said in her defence "Well, we nearly lost her when she was a baby" she was born with a major stomach problem and was operated on three times.

She was excused everything she ever did from that moment on. The girl now has three children by three different fathers at the tender age of 20 and is slowly but surely destroying their lives as well.

suncottage that's a very valid question. I do think his mother made excuses for him, although she definatly loved the yongest boy more. I think that alone would have damaged him, knowing he was not the favourite son.

Reading this with interest. My dad had a personality disorder (anti social, I think) He gambles, lies and cheats and is living in my sister's flat (parasitic), he also has poor personal hygiene, which I think stems from a lack of empathy.

He can also be utterly charming and very funny, and is a great success in his career.

I have also a 'friend' with the 'paranoid' version of a PD. She is totally self-obsessed, blames everyone for her problems, is very controlling and manipulative. Most people run a mile, but I maintain a friendship (on my terms) as our DC get on very well.

I don't think you can ever help these people, they are incapable of seeing they have a problem

Somebody asked, upthread, what people did before these PD diagnoses existed. I have it from the horse's mouth - if you'll excuse my calling my mother a horse! We'd both been listening to a programme about Asperger's. She told me that, in her day, people didn't worry about things so much (possibly because there was a war on, but never mind that) - she said "We'd just put it down to their personality type." Well, yes, I said, that hasn't changed but it's helpful for everybody to define their 'differences'. She remarked that she has some Asperger-ish qualities; I agreed. Then she asked "So would a specialist say I have Asperger's?" Possibly, I said, but there are other conditions, which have some of the same symptoms. You might be Asperger's or you might be a Narcissist.
"Oh, YES!" said she, "I am a Narcissist! That's MY personality!"

Sigh ... what can you do?!

:: My mother isn't simple, and she does know exactly what it means. I agree with her self-diagnosis, btw - but advised to her to claim Asperger's in future, as people will be more sympathetic

Thought I'd better add - for the rare reader who hasn't been exposed to my full family history - my dad was a sociopath, without question. He was a horribly unhappy man: angry, emotionally incapacitated and cruel for fun. He was also capable of being very funny and had a high pain threshold - I gather that's often found with ASPD. Perhaps 'having no feelings' in every sense?

Mum's sense of humour barely merits the name - and she feels pain deeply & often.

My brother is nothing like as bad as some of the siblings on here - but I blame our parents for his utter fecklessness, bad behaviour and irresponsibility.

They always, always bail him out. They agree with all the daft excuses he makes, and pass them on. I think they have ruined his life (though obviously he has ultimate responsibility).

He chose a university course that he was wildly unsuited for, under pressure from our parents. It took him eleven years to scrape a degree. Eleven years of doing nothing, being funded by parents, with every excuse imaginable. In the years since he graduated, he has been unable to find a suitable job. His attitude to women scares me.

I think unlikely amazonian made great points. The parents involved have much responsibility for creating these situations. My brother is like the boy who never grew up, he can't sustain relationships, and as he is 30, it looks as though he will always be our parents' dependent child.

OP - the next step of disengagement is to accept that your father has also chosen this path, and to stop worrying about him.

Interestingly, my dad was cosseted as a child as he had rheumatoid arthritis at a very young age. I guess that's where his PD stems from.

My 'friend' with the PD has an abusive background. As a previous poster said, she spends her entire life 'ranting' about how her problems are somebody else's fault. I have suggested therapy to her, but it's always met with deaf ears. Although, she does have a family support worker (who is probably not trained to recognise PDs)

My brother was cosseted (understandably enough, but unfairly) after our family broke up.

Unwind - yes dad did choose the path. He was particularly warned by his mother, and by me when I was old enough. Her opinion didn't count because she was (even she admits) well hard as a mother; mine didn't count because I was hardy disinterested, plus, well, it was me.

OTOH, he isn't like some of the parents here. No WAY would he let someone dictate what food was available to a chemotherapy patient, for example. I accept it's his fault to a degree but he has tried, he's just not got anywhere, and hasn't been strong enough to force my brother to back down. And yes he has to deal with the consequences. I'm not sure he has a feel for how widespread (in a way) this pattern of behaviour is. I wonder if he thinks it's just us. I'm going to try to talk to him about all this.