Let's say you suspect someone has a personality disorder of some sort: what can actually, practically be done?

[Unprune]

We've all known for years (from an early age, perhaps) that my brother is not quite right. He's 34 now, and yesterday my grandmother told me a story of a particular way he'd treated my father, and I thought, oh for goodness sake, this isn't going to stop, he isn't going to grow out of this behaviour (until a few years ago my family were still excusing him as 'just a bit young for his age' - unbefuckinglievable!).

I don't have any contact with him, and I like it that way. He's a scary man. But my father obviously still wants his son, my grandmother is very stoic, and I just wondered if anything could hypothetically be done if he allowed himself to be helped.

I also agree that parents are 'responsible' - however, I can categorically say in my case that my dad has tried to teach right from wrong. (He succeeded with me.) It's like a drip-drip of tiny steps towards the final outcome rather than a constant neglect or smothering.

Is it an interplay of circumstances and brain chemistry? I wouldn't heartily recommend our family set-up to anyone, but home life wasn't abusive or neglectful.

I always wanted our Dad to act like a father and not a 'mate'. The sensible Dad with slippers and good advice about pensions etc.

He never was never strict with us or really ever told us off - neither of my parents took the slightest bit of notice of what I did or was doing whether it was academic, athletic or musically.

Brother was 'The Golden Child' - the be all and end all. It was a few years ago now but Mum was one day recounting yet again a story of the teacher "who made (insert brother's name) stand with his hands on his head at breaktime" and how he had complained to her and she went right up to the school and gave the teacher 'what for'.

I turned to her and said "Mum - all those times you went storming up the school to shout at the teachers because your darling boy had been punished for something - did it EVER ONCE OCCUR TO YOU HE ACTUALLY DID THE THINGS HE WAS PUNISHED FOR"?

She looked at me totally stunned and said no, then she burst into tears. After 30 odd years she finally considered the fact he may have been a throughly poisonous child who was good at lying through his teeth.

This next bit hurt me but I said it - "And you have been making a prat of yourself over him ever since - he has taken you for a ride for years".

I don't even bother having those sorts of conversations with her or Dad anymore - total waste of time and energy.

I've had the 'taking you for a ride' conversations too. The trouble is: dad agrees. He knows his son is a wrong 'un. We sort of joke about how nothing he says is true and there could be all sorts that we don't know about.

Then my brother comes back to stay for a bit and he says 'right, two weeks and that's it' but my brother always manipulates him then starts the abuse and the shouting.

And my dad says 'oh your brother, give him an inch and he takes a mile'.

Am mildly incredulous that it hadn't occurred to your mum! Why not, do you think?

And suncottage, how did it reflect on you, your brother being like this?

I felt I was always judged by his standards. I was greedy, emotionally abusive, I lied, or I was suspected of lying, I was accused of manipulating, twisting things - apparently. Oh, and I moaned all the time. (That might have been true - I was bloody miserable!!)

It took me a while to feel like I wasn't any of those things. Well, I knew I wasn't a liar, because it's obvious to anyone that I'm crap at lying. I used to hear myself described by my dad and simply not know what he was talking about. What a bloody mess!

Unprune

Nothing I did made any impact - whether it was educationally, musically, athletically.

They came to see nothing at school and were not interested.

Mum was/is so totally blinkered as far as my brother is concerned - he plays the guitar and really should have been the next John Lennon doncha know.

He is not even very good. I just find it soo sad - this grown man sitting in his little bedroom at his mummy and daddy's house listening to the records of the 80's and wearing the clothes his Mummy buys him (which also belong in the 80's)

He has no pride - I have seen him sit all night in bars scrounging drinks and food and the taxi fare home at the end of it.

I am ashamed of him. He only works now part time because he had no option when Dad became ill and the money was not so freely available. The fact he works 25 hours a week now further absolves him of any responsibility around the house - he literally does nothing.

When I stayed last Dad had a bad fall and Mum was screaming for help to lift him. My darling brother did not lift an eyelid never mind help.

When Mum and I got Dad back on the bed I went through and asked him if he would have helped - his exact words were,

"You managed didn't you"

What a mess.

I was going to say the same as you Unprune with regard to "blaming the parents". Presumably we and our "problem" siblings both had a similar upbring and yet they turned out to have personality disorders and we didn't (as far as we can ascertain . That doesn't make sense to me unless parents favour one dc hugely over another.

I also was wondering if there is a genetic component to this sort of mental health problem?

My sister has had one disastrous marriage and a few relationships after that that never lasted more than a year.

We are all in agreement (disloyal though it sounds) about our sister's problem. Tbh we find it out and out embarrassing when she tells the same lies again and again to each of us (ridiculous things to get herself out of certain situations) and when we find out she has borrowed money from (unsuspecting kind) people we know. It must be so much harder for those of you with parents who are "colluding" with manipulative behaviour.

sun that is my point. Your parents should get rid of him, because these people actually so can stand on their own two feet.

What they do is go and find other victims to sob to or lean on and steal from/scrounge off/manipulate into parting with money or whatever the hell they want, without a second thought. Because they have no empathy and are dysfuinctional.

Not your fault.

Your 'brother' says 'but you managed' because that is truly what he thinks. He has never been taught to think anything else. They have no emotional intelligence.

His parents (your M and D) should be ashamed and shocked that they let this happen. Not you.

But they will not learn. They will never learn. They don't want to learn and they are incapable of learning.

The next time this scenario or anything approaches it happens, I suggest you yell loudly at your parents for depriving you of a decent brother. Because in their stupid blind dysfunctional ruination of him, they have lost you a sibling who could have been a great laugh and comfort to you.

They will not appreciate you for getting cross with them at all

they will dislike you for it and wring their hands and appear blameless.

Much like your brother.

Walk away. Run fast fast fast away. Do not engage and do not go round helping your father or mother anymore.

In fact do the really adult and normal thing: ask them if they have left you anything in their will.

If they have not, walk away.

If they have, walk away anyway.

Makes no difference with these people. They are fuck ups

But it would be interesting to know before they drop of this moretal coil and you are stuck in a room reading their will with your tozzer volatile shitty brother.

Your blind and dysfunctional parents are the blind and dysfunctional enablers of a consequently self-obsessed, unempathetic and totally dysfunctional child and adult.

Bad parenting.

Stillconfounded, in our case, my brother probably did get the shitty end of the stick with parents. My parents were very young when I was born, and my grandparents really, really helped. Then my parents moved away, and my father pushed for another child. My mother didn't want one but gave in. I suspect he was mistreated a bit by my mother. He certainly was always in trouble. She left when he was five and my dad became a single parent, plus we had a live-out nanny, an old woman who was no role-model to anyone (I disliked her quite intensely, I remember). I was just older and cut from a different cloth, so the effects of all of this haven't been too important in my life. They say a mother leaving a child early on practically guarantees a poor outcome for a boy (different outcome if the mother dies, apparently). However I can't say that we'd have been better off with my mother: I suspect not.
I was just lucky to have been a bit older when it all happened. However it doesn't excuse a grown man threatening his own father.

UA - What is the difference between a sociopath and a narcissist? Read the link with the descriptions of a sociopath and seems similar?

cindystill - my thoughts too, though I am very much a beginner in all these things. Knew a bit about NPD, and reading the top half of sociopath (I could read on no more!) all sounded very familiar.....

Unprune - that certainly explains his behaviour. Although (as with my sister) one would think that their behaviour would improve with age - but no such luck.

The Defining characteristic of the narcissist is grandiosity. The narcissist is more likely to be attention seeking, envious and to desire admiration.

The defining characteristic of the sociopath/psychopath is callousness. The sociopath/psychopath is more likely to engage in illegal activity, to be aggressive, impulsive and deceitful.

All sociopaths are narcissistic but plain narcissists are not also sociopaths

A sociopath is more violent and openly lacks fear. A narcissist is more about their image and how they appear on the outside. Both lack empathy for others. A narcissist will look their best and rely on others opinions to up their self esteem (also known as narcissistic supply). A sociopath doesn't need others to validate himself/herself like the narcissist does.

A sociopath is more of a predator using others for their personal gain. A narcissist is too self absorbed to care about others and a sociopath can not care about others because of the way they are wired. A true sociopath is born. A narcissist is a product of the environment after age 7. Psychopaths can not help the way they are. They are aggressive individuals with no conscience and they cannot truly love another person. They are angry because, on the inside, they want to be normal. They lash out at innocent people because they cant feel true love and happiness within in relationship. After they realize they cannot get the same thing normal people do out of a relationship, they will turn to crime. Pathological lying and deceitfulness start at a young age with a sociopath. People may assume all sorts of bad things about a sociopath, such as they were abused when they were little or something really bad happened to them that caused them to be so cold. They will then try to change the sociopath and "rescue them." In reality, they will not change, it is who they are. A sociopath will die a sociopath. It is a very lonely life. Without love a person can not feel true happiness.

FYI Newer studies suggest Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Sociopathy may be the exact same syndrome, Sociopathy being the more severe and full-blown version(which might exist on a scale, depending on the severity of the symptoms).

Jesus, UA, my sister is a complete mixture. I read one of your paras, and I read my sister as narcissistic and not sociopath and then read then next and think that she IS sociopath.

And then I see your last para and then I realise that I know for sure she has NPD with traits of socipath in her... wow.

This is very enlightening for me.

I know a narcissist - I know one isn't "allowed" to diagnose but when you know one, you just know that they are wrong in the head, whatever it's called. The delusions and talking themselves up without apparent care for their audience - really obvious.

Anyway, in mind of this thread, dh and I have just dealt with ds (7) who lied to us about something that happened at school. We've spelled out to him that he's getting a double punishment (plus what the school does), one for the bad deed, and a bigger one for the lying. And that it's his responsibility, so if he feels bad about it, he has to remember that he did it and these were the consequences. I've found it quite upsetting (because of the timing with this thread).

Unprune - completely understandable why you were upset, but sounds like you handled it firm and fair.

I think I sometimes go possibly a bit far with "boundaries" for the DC as my sister either didn't have them or just didn't realise that they existed. I assume she did have them, as my parents gave me them, but she is quite a bit younger, so we didn't really grow up together. My DC are absolutely clear at age 6 and 5 where their boundaries are, and 95% of the time they adhere to them!

Sister's childhood and behaviour, and how she treated my parents right from a pre school age has such a massive bearing on how I approach my parenting. Right or wrong, but it does, to avoid me having completely fucked up kids who won't go anywhere with their lives.

I totally understand that AB.
These things can't fail to affect your parenting (hopefully for the better).

Well, have just skim read this...of course you are correct UA.

BUT...I come from a huge family, on both sides of which there are narcs and sociopaths, and at least one psychopath.

Recent evidence suggests 1) that NPD and sociopathy are indeed the same condition, but on a spectrum or continuum...psychopathy being the extreme manifestation of the disorder.

2. The brains of the afflicted are physically different, as shown in scans.

3. genetics most certainly has a part to play in this

4. to answer the OP... no you cannot change them.

(disclaimer....borderline PD a rare exception to this...as at least two regular MNetters will attest.)

However...treating children with fairness and consistency as very small children will help to mitigate these conditions.

I have this on both sides of my birth family, as do my DC, as I married into it. We are all 'normal'. I am in long term psychotherapy, but not because I am PDed, but because I want to recover from all those who have affected my life. My children as far as I can see are ok.

This goes back in families for generations...neglect, violence, abuse, excessive spoiling of a child can all lead to PDs. It is the child's way of protecting itself...creating a false self which is removed from the circumstances the real child finds itself in. The false self becomes the reality, and letting that go would mean the real self has to be accepted. with PDs this cannot happen.

As the link says....learn to recognise these people and keep away. Protect yourself and your children...that's all you can do.

It has also been suggested that people without empathy are very successful in all walks of life, and therefore have a selective advantage over the rest of us. They don't care who they screw over, so even in cavemen era would survive much better than others.

Seeing my family and the messes they get themselves into, as they lack a fundemental understanding of all sorts of issues and social norms, I am not sure what I think about that theory. But there are certainly many narcs in positions of power in the world.

If many commentators are to be believed, one N is in the most powerful position of all at present. Very scary thought.

Oh and sorry...meant to say...
5) most PDs are a mixture of more than one PD, so will not always show all the signs of one particular PD.

I think at the point that you are making excuses for a grown man (it is usually men that people make excuses for - rather than women!) or infantalising (is that even a word?! them "oh you know such and such, give him an inch and he'll take a mile".....you need to take responsibility for at least maintaining their dysfunctional behaviour if not causing it (though they often go together). Sorry - verrrrrrrrrrry long sentence! I know of two men in their forties - both living at home still. They do nothing for themselves. When their aging parents die, they'll be fucked. No life skills whatsoever.
Remember the recent news about the guy in Croydon who killed his parents? 30+, still living at home, no proper relationships other than superficial ones (drinking pals). Scary.

Gettingagrip there was a tv programme a few years ago about sociopaths/psychopaths in powerful positions. A lot has been written in recent years about T Blair ticking all the criteria. I have had personal reasons for looking into this; when I was talking about it with DH, he said that the list of attributes fitted exactly one of his colleagues, a fairly powerful lawyer, who has risen to the top at a fairly young age basically by using other people and blatant lying. One of the more disturbing aspects of this man's character is his open contempt for his wife and child.

UA, How would you class someone whose personality is manipulative, twists everything, re-writes history, permanently punishes another person consistently for something they did wrong once and just sees in black and white, gets stronger and seems to enjoy causing hurt, twists everything to make themselves to be the victim, manipulates another person's emotions to their gain, totally self-centred and life is about their point of view always.......

Whoever they are they sound a nightmare to be around!

It's impossible to 'diagnose' anybody online obviously and that is not what I'm ever trying to do on here. But I strongly think that Personality Disorders are often overlooked when it comes to trying to understand or even change a person's behaviours. (don't even bother!)

The things that you describe make this person a total bully and a shit (to be blunt) but it's worth considering the possibility that constant manipulation of the truth, pathological lying and other consistent behavioural anomalies, might signify a PD.

I am not for one moment saying that PDs (and as has been said already by gettingagrip and me and others, PDs exist on a spectrum from mild to full-blown and also many people with PDs display the characteristics of more than one single Disorder) make such behaviours excusable, only that it can be useful to have a 'label' for such destructive and cruel treatment of another person.

That's because, knowing what you are dealing with means that you can stop continually trying to understand or resolve these behaviours with a PD partner, stop allowing them to mentally screw you over, and instead come to see that you are their victim and most probably need to get out of the relationship or sever all contact with a family member etc.

With Narcissistic PD, the advice is always to run run run run away as fast as possible. Cut all contact and don't look back. N's are not treatable.

But as others have said, other Disorders do seem to respond to some help - therapy/medication. But it's often a very long haul.

Does this help? I could go on for hours about it as I read so much about all this stuff after my exH abandoned me and our baby son taking all our money and going to Thailand. He was a shit alright. But he was a mad nutter of a shit with NPD too (not that he was officially diagnosed but, as I say, reading up a lot about it after he had gone, I realised that he fitted every single criteria and after all, it just wasn't a 'normal' thing to do!).

Seeing this made it easier to cope with eventually, and helped my recovery. I could never have 'fixed' him, and there were many things in his family background and childhood that had made him like he was. It wasn't me. I know also that he has made a major fuck-up of his life. He has lost everything including three lovely children.

But I don't feel any pity for him. And I don't feel guilty anymore (well, only in rare moments when I have a wobble, as it completely traumatised me) for anything I might have done to 'drive him away'.

And I am glad he has gone. His PD made him hell on earth to live with and he will just go on to repeat the NPD pattern of 'idealise, devalue and discard' again and again.