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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Please help me get my marriage back on track (sorry, v long)

31 replies

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 12:27

OK here goes (have name-changed for this). Apologies in advance for the very long essay but I really need some honest advice on how to stop my marriage disintegrating further.

DH and I have been married for almost 10 years, and have DS1 (4) and DS2 (3 months). We are both busy professionals in the same field. DH's job is busier and more senior than mine and involves 2 roles. Until I went on maternity leave with DS2, I had a job that was similar to one of those roles. I also have some experience of DH's other role, and know a number of people doing similar jobs, so I know what his work entails (although he claims I don't). I am responsible for most domestic matters (children, cooking, household organisation, bills etc.)

Basically, DH is a workaholic. He goes to work between 7 and 8am and tries to come home for DCs' bath and bedtime at 7-7.30pm, but frequently doesn't get home until after 8pm. After dinner, he sits down to work again at his laptop at around 10pm, and for the last few months has been working until 3-4am almost every night. He has always had a similar pattern of work, but the time he stops work and comes to bed in the wee small hours has gradually got later and later over the years.

The "big issue" in our marriage is the conflict between DH's work practices (and the resultant chronic sleep deprivation), and the demands of married/family life.

From my point of view, DH's work practices have a big impact on me and on family life. He works the same evening/night hours 7 days a week, so considers that he "needs" to lie in every Saturday and Sunday (often until 11am or so). (I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of lie-ins I have had since DS1 was born.) He insists that we go out as a family on the weekend, and gets offended if I suggest taking the children out myself and leaving him to sleep. But in practice that means we either wait until he is up before going out, which restricts the sort of activities we can do, or he gets up early to come with us and is then irritable and frequently falls asleep when we are out (e.g. during meals - not great for conversation).

When he is up at weekends, I am still responsible for the majority of family organisation - breakfast, washing and dressing DS2, packing change bags, spare clothes, snacks etc. He will occasionally get DS1 dressed (even though DS1 is perfectly capable of doing this himself when in the right mood!), but then seems to consider that he has made his contribution and displays an air of puzzled innocence if I get annoyed that he hasn't done more. He often sits down to work at his computer whenever he perceives there to be a "spare" moment at weekends, and seems oblivious to the fact that I am running around doing all that needs to be done to get us out of the house.

He isn't like this all the time. He will often devote large amounts of time to DS1 on the weekends and sometimes takes him out on his own. They have a lovely relationship and he is a good father.

From his point of view, he is very ambitious and his identity is very much bound up in his work. He considers that he has already "sacrificed" productivity at work for the demands of married life and parenthood (erm, he proposed to me and the DCs were a mutual decision). In his worst moments, he is not prepared to compromise further on his working hours and doesn?t think he should be asked to ("You knew what I was like when you married me, you knew what you were getting yourself into"). He accuses me of having altered my priorities. This is true, I have become quite child-focussed, but one of us had to - and anyway, isn't that what adults do, adapt to changing demands in life? He says that he feels constantly pulled between the demands of work and of home, and feels guilty that he is not performing adequately on either front.

All of this has led to massive resentment on both sides. I resent him because it seems like the DCs and I are consistently last in DH's priority list, and he is far more worried about disappointing/inconveniencing/alienating work colleagues than letting me down. He frequently seems like a passenger in family life rather than (as I had fondly anticipated) a co-pilot. He resents me because I nag him about work. I feel like a single parent with a lodger some of the time, he feels surplus to requirements when I focus on the DCs. We both feel that the other doesn?t listen to our point of view.

I have tried and tried over the years to find a way past this by talking to him. The same issues were there pre-DCs, but were more manageable, I think because I made fewer demands on him - I was more work-focussed then myself, and I would do my own thing at weekends (e.g. go to the gym) while he slept off a long night's work. Not surprisingly, since the birth of DS2 I have needed him to be more family-focussed, and this has caused more friction.

None of this is helped by the interaction between our personalities. I am a "glass-half-full" person, he is very much a "glass-half-empty" person. He sees things in black and white, I see shades of grey. This means that when I ask him to reduce his working hours temporarily while DS2 is so small, he hears that I am asking him to never work at home again and to throw away his career.

I know a number of people who do his sort of job. No-one else works these hours. His only strategy when things get busy is to work longer hours. He has low self-esteem (thank you very much, MIL) and genuinely feels that he needs to work harder than everyone else to maintain his professional position. I have talked endlessly with him over the years about "working smarter" rather than "working longer" (he finds it difficult to say "no" to colleagues or to delegate) but the improvement in his working practices has been very gradual.

He makes intermittent efforts to improve, most recently by saying he will stop work at 2am and come to bed. This lasted a couple of days and then it was back to 3-3.30-4am.

Things came to a head last weekend when we had a blazing row, witnessed (to my deep shame regret) by DS1. We seemed to patch things over until early this morning when I lost it with him when he was still working at 3.30am and told him to sleep on the couch. He said "OK" but then just got into bed at around 6am when he'd finished working! He clearly feels (and says) that I'm being hysterical but I just don't think he understands how unhappy this situation makes me. I do not want to live like this for the rest of my life. At my lowest, I feel straight-jacketed by the demands of a self-centred man who doesn't really care enough about the impact of his actions on his wife or family to change his behaviour. Yet I recognise that this isn't entirely fair and he does have his own side to the story.

Please don't tell me to leave him. For various reasons connected to our circumstances, I can't end my marriage. More to the point, I don't want to end it. DH is my best friend. He is a wonderful father (although he doesn't believe this himself - more self-esteem issues). I think that, somewhere under all the built-up resentment, I still love him. I want to find a way around this so we can all be happier. I think I am going to have to try going to Relate by myself. I doubt that he would come as he is very sceptical about counselling.

Neither of us is perfect. I can be bossy and like things done my way. Sometimes I wonder whether part of the reason his refusal to work less infuriates me so much is because he just won't follow my advice. But ultimately, I just want a better family life, I want to feel like my needs matter to DH, I don't want my sons to grow up thinking that this is a normal working or family life, and I don't want DH to work himself, quite literally, to death. Is any of that so bad?

OP posts:
ScaredOfCows · 09/11/2010 12:50

You say that you have tried to discuss this with him and have argued over it with him, for many years and also pre children. Yet he has not changed. I can't see that you have much alternative than to either just accept that that is how he is, and as a consequence of that, your life and your children's lives will be dictated to by his extreme working patterns, or to end the relationship.

I think you need to ask yourself what you are getting from this relationship, and what messages your children are growing up with here - that it's OK for Daddy to rarely be home, rarely participate, and fall asleep when he does.

Possibly at some point in his future, your husband will wake up and realise that he has missed his children's childhood, but that may not happen for 10 or 20 years. Can you really cope with this for that long?

Orissiah · 09/11/2010 13:25

His workaholism seems entrenched. It's so difficult to change another adult's behaviour; only your own. If you do not want to leave him then you must accept his behaviour and continue as you are but without the "nagging" (your word) and the resentment. You be the primary parent in your DC's lives and parent them as fully and as best as you can. If possible, seek outside paid help and understand that it will be easier as your youngest gets older and more independent.

Naetha · 09/11/2010 13:36

Does he really understand how you feel about all this?

Is it worth putting what you've said above in a letter to him so he can read how you feel without it coming across as nagging.

What you have isn't a normal family life, it is damaging and unsustainable, and could have much longer term impacts on the emotional development of your children.

Something needs to change, and although yes you could change your expectations and continue with the situation (but without the nagging and resentment) but this would just be a delaying tactic, and it would all come to a head again, but probably this time with the end of the marriage.

Do you think counselling would help?

Naetha · 09/11/2010 13:49

Oh, and FYI my DH had an addiction. Many people, mainly on here said that he wouldn't change, I should just change myself or leave him - there were no other options.

He did change though - I can't say it was easy, and I know he really struggles sometimes, but when it was made clear what he'd lose (i.e. his family, present and future) if he didn't change his behaviour it made him realise how short-sighted he was. He is now a much better husband and father.

It's easy to say that people are good fathers because they take their son to the park once a week, but being a good father is so much more than that. It's being a good role model, being a constant presence in their life, putting your children ahead of yourself (not always, but when it matters). I thought DH was still a good dad (just a crap husband) when he was going through his problems, but on reflection he wasn't. Just because your children love you, doesn't make you a good parent.

loves2walk · 09/11/2010 13:51

You say you have told him repeatedly how you feel but he clearly isn't listening. Isn't properly listening.

I am sure he has the capability to change - his current working hours are barmy, completely unsustainable and crazy. Either his relationship with you will fall apart or his health will. He can't go on that way and I don't think you should go on accepting it as it is obviously not what you want.

You need to find a way of making him hear you. Write this in a letter and leave it for him to read with quiet time when you take the kids out. Or say you are completely at the end of your tether and only both attending counselling will halt that in it's tracks. He needs to understand how serious you are about the upset he is causing by not listening to your needs.

thatsnotmyfruitshoot · 09/11/2010 14:12

I would have described XH as a workaholic but he was nowhere near the level you describe. It was a very hard and lonely existence, and the financial rewards didn't compensate at all. Ultimately it contributed to major stresses on our marriage and our family, that caused it to break down.

loves2walk is totally right - what he's doing is unsustainable and if he carries on could be potentially extremely damaging to his mental and physical wellbeing. You need to make him listen - I would be very firm with him about going to counselling.

loves2walk · 09/11/2010 14:26

Also just wanted to add - of course you changed your priorities. Like you say someone had to after you had children. Children get neglected when parents don't 'change their priorities' in order to meet their needs.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/11/2010 14:32

ID,

He is not a wonderful father at all (I find that many women write such comments primarily because they themselves have nothing at all positive to say about their man) if he is treating his family and by turn you his wife in such a manner. He calls you "hysterical" and like many such men would never entertain counselling (because he knows he is in the wrong here but won't admit it to himself). It is also a copout on his part for him to tell you that you knew what he was like so he'll just carry on as before. If you used a term like "hysterical" towards him I daresay his response would not be at all favourable yet you take it on the chin. He is truly self centered. His own mother has likely played a role in all this but he is an adult now and makes his own conscious choices. He is actively choosing work over his family.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?. I would appreciate an answer to that question.

What are you both teaching the children about relationships here?. What are they learning from you both?. They are taking all of this and all the unspoken stuff in and are learning from all of this that you are both doing. You're both showing them that this is how adults behave in relationships and your relationship power balance is skewed badly.

What matters more to him; a ridiculous 21 hour working day or spending proper family time with you people?. No-one has to work that hard; what field of employment is he in?. Is he a lawyer in chambers?.

He cannot keep this up; his health will ultimately fail him and then what. He'll never be able to do such hours again. You write yourself that you do not want your sons growing up thinking this is normal but you are currently showing them this is acceptable to you. This situation as is untenable long term for the above reasons.

No woman should write either that they cannot end their marriage because of unspecified circumstances. This is both a ridiculous and frankly daft notion on your part. If he is your idea of a best friend then perhaps that needs revising because you would not put up with that from a friend.

BTW do you feel like you are always walking on eggshells around him?.

thatsnotmyfruitshoot · 09/11/2010 14:32

I so identify with this. Having dc's has to change your priorities. We also had some unforeseen needs where one of our dc's needed lots of health care and support. It was a very difficult time as it took a long time to be diagnosed. XH made no allowance for this, and carried on doing 100 hour weeks while I dealt with the stress on my own. It was horrendous.

I remember feeling as though there was no room for me to breathe, I couldn't be ill, and felt guilty being away from the home or dc's, as I could never rely on XH to pull his weight. Ironically, it's much easier since we separated as he's had to reorganise things so he sees the dc's. (Not advocating that approach though..)

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 14:33

Thank you for your replies.

I feel so disloyal for saying all that, even though it is true (or at least, true from my point of view). He is not a bad person. He is a lovely man who is very, very conflicted about his priorities, who desperately wants to please everyone and who has got himself into an entrenched pattern of behaviour that he can't find a way out of. He is very resistant to change and I think genuinely can't see how to do things differently without causing him anxiety at work. At an intellectual level he knows that he can't sustain his working practices, and he wants to be a good father, but somehow work always wins.

Naetha - "being a good role model, being a constant presence in their life, putting your children ahead of yourself" - he does do all those things some of the time. I know he would like to do them more consistently.

I think counselling would help, but I doubt he'd go. My take on the heart of the problem is that he has low self-esteem and feels inadequate in his job, so feels the need to work ridiculously hard to prove himself. Actually he is extremely good at his job, and has been very successful - but (and this is where the "glass-half-empty" outlook comes in) he continually focuses on negative events at work and ignores or discounts the many positive events and proofs of his competence and success. Of course the more senior he becomes in his profession, the worse the insecurity becomes because the stakes get higher and he has more to lose. I think if he could feel better about himself he would have less need to look for external validation from work.

loves2walk - I know he isn't properly listening to me. (To be fair, he says I don't listen to him properly either.) I think part of the issue there is differences in behaviour patterns in our own families. I come from a family where people tended to keep their opinions to themselves and arguments are rare but taken seriously and take a while to blow over. DH comes from a family where heated arguments are common, but things said during an argument are not taken seriously and they blow over quickly.

OP posts:
happypiglet · 09/11/2010 14:33

Hi increasingly.
My DH too is very driven work wise altho he does not work in the middle of the night. He leaves the house at 6.20am every day and the DC do not usually see him from Sun eve until Fri night. If he does ever get home to see them before bed (they are DS1 6, DS2 5, and DD 3) it is usually 10 mins before story. I usually see him one night out of 5 (often only tho because he is babysitting for me)
When DS1 was born he did try to get home earlier for a while but with each birth it has got less and less.
At the weekends he does not lie in (I would kill him) and he does spend time with me and the kids and is great with the DC- I would class him as a good father.
I too really used to struggle with this set up esp when the DC were smaller. However I realised that he wouldn't change and that I loved him and wanted him as a father to my children. It was also very wearing to be constantly resenting him for staying at work. As such I have compromised. We now live very separate lives in the week and I run everything (traditional SAHM). I have my friends and vonluntary work which I enjoy. The DC do not expect to see him in the week which is easier to manage than their disappointment when he doesn't make it home. (which is sometimes for reasons outside his control like train issues)
I also realised that I don't let him do things by himslef as I don't 'trust' him to do it right so I realised that if I am like that I need to do it all or give up control.
I can't have both.
I still get annoyed occassionally that I perceive that my kids come 2nd after work and I come at best a lowly 3rd but in reality this is not how he sees it. DH feels very strongly that he could loose all he has very easily if he doesn't do a perfect job and as he is sole breadwinner he feels very responsible for our financial security. His dad had periods of unemployment when he was small and he found that very hard to deal with.
He, too, works harder and is more conscientious than his colleagues (and indeed bosses) but that is part of him and actually something I admire. He is intensely loyal and that runs not only thro his work and clients but with us too.
It is not as easy as just saying 'he needs to change or you should leave' but I do think you have to find ways to live with it and structure your life so you can be on the whole content.
You say he is good witht he kids and gets home to see at least one of them some nights and spends good time with them at weekends. This will get easier as they get older too.
Wasn't trying to hijack just wanted to say you are not alone and that in my experience it gets easier as the DC get older.
Not much practical advise sorry but hope my empathy helps!

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 15:21

Sorry, lots more posts while I was typing my last one,

Attila - I have read many of your posts on other threads and admire your straight talking. You are spot on with much of what you say (avoidance of counselling because at some level he knows I have a valid point, the copout nature of "you knew what I was like", the self-centredness). But I can't agree entirely with some of what you say because it's just not that black and white.

Yes, I think that our behaviour (his and my reaction to it) is sending out some unhealthy messages about work-life balance to our sons. But it also sends out other messages , such as the need to work hard for what you want, and the need to try and negotiate in a marriage when things are going wrong rather than just giving up.

When I say I "can't" end my marriage, I on't mean that I am physically not able to do so. I mean that the consequences of doing so, for all concerned, are not acceptable to me. I am not prepared to give details of my circumstances as this might identify me to someone who knows me in RL, but you will have to take my ord for it that there would be more obstacles to separation than for many people.

What do I get out of the relationship? On a good day, the companionship and support of a man who shares my interests and loves me and our children. On a bad day, I'm in negative equity because I feel like I give much more then is given to me. There are about the same number of good and bad days. Lots of days are somewhere in between. I happen to think there is a lot there worth salvaging.

No, I do not feel as if I am walking on eggshells around him. We both have some controlling tendencies. He does the odd bit of gaslighting, which (thank you MN) I am now wise to and don't get upset by. His mother has never come to terms with his adult independence, so perhaps from his point of view I am just one more female trying to lay a guilt trip on him.

I'm not defending DH so much as defending the fact that I find the situation less than straightforward, and so does he.

happypiglet and fruitshoot - thank you for your empathy. I can relate to much of what you describe and that does help - a lot. I think that the best I can do is keep trying to help him to change (and to want to change), but also find a way of achieving equanimity if that proves to be impossible.

I am tempted to show him this thread but I think that might be counterproductive.

OP posts:
BlueFergie · 09/11/2010 15:24

OP - There does sometimes seem to be a view that if things aren't perfect then a marriage isn't worth fighting for. I have seen the question asked a lot - What do you get from this relationship? While this may be a worthwhile question soemtimes it does ignore the vagrancies of relationships where often there are times when one or other partner is getting nothing at that particular time. I know at certain times in our marriage all I have been doing is supporting DH and getting nothing in return and vice versa.

I am sure you once got a great deal from this relationship and maybe still do. At the moment you are at a point where it is not working however this does not mean the only solution is to leave.

My own DH had a very difficult period after our DD was born that lasted for over 2 years. I am sure if I had posted on here I would have been told he was a selfish c**k who would never change. That he was a bad father because he wasn't listening to me and putting me and DD first.That I should leave. While that was a view that one could draw from the facts it was not actually the truth. My husband had a undiagnosed and untreated mental illness. Despite having developed in his teens he had built a very good career, met and married me and managed to privatly keep it under control unitl DD was born when it exploded.

He had no idea how to handle it and it took him a year to even speak to me about what was going on in his head. Eventually he sought counselling and received a diagnosis and treatment. He is a much happier person and our family life is much better.

My point with all this is that I understand how you feel. My DH is my best friend. I knew that he wasn't happy and that he could be if he would only listen to me. He was listening to me but he couldn't put what I was saying into practice because of the demons in his head. He felt trapped in a spiral and he didn't have the tools to handle what was happening. Counselling/ treatment gave him these tools to stop the mental illness bullying him and to live his life the way he wanted to.

My DH has an actual named mental illness. Perhaps your DH has too or maybe not but he definitly has psyciological issues (self esteem etc) that are stopping him being the person he wants and you want him to be. You can talk to him all you like but he obviously can't overcome them alone. He needs professional help. Please talk to him about going to see a counsellor. Someone seperate from Relate. Although relationship counselling may work he needs to explore his own issues first and get a handle on them before you go together. I thought my husband would never go but he did. He wanted his life to be better as well. I am sure your husband does too.

Sorry for long post, but so much of what you said seems familiar to me and I wanted to tell you that I came out the other side and I didn't leave. I am still married to my best friend, and my kids have an even better dad than before!

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 15:33

BlueFergie you have made me cry.

"I knew that he wasn't happy and that he could be if he would only listen to me. He was listening to me but he couldn't put what I was saying into practice"

That is it exactly. Thank you for understanding.

OP posts:
BlueFergie · 09/11/2010 15:42

I am sorry I made you cry. I know how you feel. Start with at least getting him to admit that he is not happy with the way things are, that he needs to find a better way. Suggest counselling. My DH was surprisingly open to it he was so beaten down. Tell him that there are people who can help him manage what goes on in his head better than he is at the moment.
You are not alone. There is support on here for you. If you don't want to don't let anyone else tell you to give up on your marriage. Only you know the value of it to you.

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 15:47

No, that's OK - it was relieved "someone else has articulated exactly how I feel" crying!

Thank you again.

OP posts:
BlueFergie · 09/11/2010 15:56

No prob. Happy to help. Hope it is of some use to you and you can get through to your husband. Good luck...

AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/11/2010 16:00

Hi ID,

Do NOT show him this thread. Its not productive besides which he'd just write us all off as a bunch of man hating harridians!. I am certainly not that!!.

I can only go by what you write and you are free to disagree with any of what I have written. From here anyway it does not look at all good but if nothing changes and you don't for reasons known to yourself leave, then what other options are there exactly?.
Would there really be any more obstacles to separation than for many people or would he be one to put obstacles in your way?. Just something for you to think about.

Anyway re your comment:-

"Yes, I think that our behaviour (his and my reaction to it) is sending out some unhealthy messages about work-life balance to our sons".

Yes it certainly does. And what message is that sending you?.

"But it also sends out other messages , such as the need to work hard for what you want, and the need to try and negotiate in a marriage when things are going wrong rather than just giving up".

Re the first sentence of the above, does it really send out to them this message?. From where I am sitting he is saying that I have obsessive compulsive type stuff going on in my head (probably from childhood as well, work makes him more valued) and my deep seated needs are being met currently through work. If he thinks doing all these long hours makes him either a more valued employee then he really needs to think again. He is not a good employee at all to his employers. What to him is life all about, he seems to have completely lost all that?.

All these children know is what they are seeing in front of them and your reaction to their Dad. They could well be confused and perhaps even frightened and upset by what they are seeing.

You are doing all the donkey work here to try and sort out the underlying issues; what is he actually doing to try and help the situation?. He will not entertain counselling, does not listen to you, comes across as very self centered and has called you "hysterical" (not a reasoned response at all on his part is it?). He is doing nothing.

If you have controlling tendencies (can you give evidence of this?) then you need to curb this as does he but I don't see real evidence of controlling on your part here. Control and anxiety often go hand in hand. Gaslighting is also incredibly damaging, do not downplay this whatever you do.

If he won't go to counselling I would suggest you go on your own to clarify things further in your own mind. You are going around in circles currently and that is not doing your mental state any good either.
BACP have a list of counsellors and they won't charge the earth.

You CANNOT make someone change; he has to want to change for his own self and not you or anyone else. You try changing one of your own behaviours permanantly and see how hard that is. It will be an uphill struggle to get him to see how damaging his behaviours are as he is not taking any real notice of you but you can only do so much and go so far.

I do not mean this at all unkindly but as his wife you are the last person who can help him. You're too close to this.

maktaitai · 09/11/2010 16:08

At a slight tangent, what about you doing a jobshare with him?

I think that even suggesting this could be the start of an interesting discussion. If he's awake of course.

Is he effectively a solo worker (like a barrister) or does he have a team? What's his reputation for delegation or management?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 09/11/2010 16:16

Am really glad BlueFergie that your DH is now well again.

"What are you getting out of this relationship" is a valid question to ask in these situations.

ID,

BlueFergie's DH sought help eventually - your H has not done so to date and he is also implying that he is sceptical of counselling. Such self centered men will never entertain the idea anyway and would probably try and dominate the sessions. You would be better off attending counselling sessions on your own. He has also told you worryingly that "you knew what he was like" - i.e you knew what you were getting yourself into when you met me. He sounds like a man with an addiction problem; in his case its work and work validates him. His own mother let him down as a child and continues to do so to his cost as well as your own family's now.

frostyfingers · 09/11/2010 16:27

I don't suppose you could somehow get his work's HR department involved? I can't actually think how, but if they expressed concern that he was working so hard (does he never get exhausted) and that he didn't need to as his work was well up to standard or whatever then maybe he might take notice.

Not much idea as to how, but a possible place to start. My DH had a period of not coming to bed til very late (1-2), and it was knackering for me as I'm a bad sleeper so I really sympathise.

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 16:30

Hi Attila,

No, I'm not reluctant to leave because DH would put obstacles in my way - if I really felt that this was the best solution I would do it and I wouldn't allow anyone to stop me.

But I don't want to leave. I want, if possible a happier marriage. I want to be happier and I want DH to be happier. I don't think that the only way to achieve this is to separate.

At one level, you are right - I think that he has some deep-seated needs that work is meeting better than family life. But these needs obviously aren't being met very well by work, or he'd be happy, and he's not. I would, ideally, like to help him find a way of lessening these needs or fulfilling them from his family relationships.

I am quite well aware that I have controlling tendencies. I like to take charge and have things done my way, and I have to remind myself to back off and let DH do things his way.

I know that I can't make him change. I am trying to change the way that I respond to him, by having calm discussions rather than acrimonious arguments. I haven't (yet) got to the point of seriously proposing counselling, so I don't know for sure if he will refuse to go.

I feel that I have to say this again - he is not a bad or uncaring person. He is conflicted and unhappy and has lost his way. As a fair analogy it is as if he has inadvertently driven onto a motorway, doesn't want to go in the direction he's taking, but can't find his way off again.

OP posts:
loves2walk · 09/11/2010 16:35

I think in your situation increasingly I would state clearly what my needs were and how my DH could go about addressing them. I would make it clear that unless there was a timeframe for making these things I would be thinking of alternatives to staying together. Not as an empty threat but because you cannot go on like this indefinately.

I would draw up a list of things/changes that would help you to cope with the demands of your tasks, so things like:-

1 morning a fortnight I need a lie in when you take the kids out so I can sleep (get clothes ready night before so no need to wake you)

1 night a fortnight I need to go out together for a meal to talk and when we get home have no computer/work/tv on and we either sit over kitchen table with a bottle of wine or go to bed together

1 night a week I need you to come home by 5pm so we can have a family meal together

I need you to listen to my worries about our future relationship and take them seriously

I need you to join me in some counselling to get an objective view on our marriage

I need you to see a mental health professional to get some help for your self esteem issues, etc.

increasingly I would state your needs in this way and when they have to happen by. Immediately might be unrealistic, but by the first week of december.

Tell him about your need for a co-pilot, tell him you're worried about his health (and BTW, what is he taking each morning to be able to function at work?? caffeine or worse)

This is what I think I'd do.

BlueFergie · 09/11/2010 16:39

Hi Attila. I am not arguing that "What are you getting out of this relationship" is not sometimes a valid question, my point was simply that the answer to that maybe nothing but that does not necessarily mean that someone never will get something again. We all go through periods were one patner is getting far more from the relationship than the other at certain times.

My Dh did get help but he had indicated previously that he was sceptical of counselling. Thought it indicated he was crazy or weak. I talked to him about it again and again. Ultimatly it got to the stage that I said I would leave until he got help. I am sure in the midst of it all my own DH also used phrases like "you knew what he was like" along with "this is who I am" etc. They were ways of deflecting me as he couldn't explain what was happening to him.

It does sound like OPs DH has an addiction problem. Addiction is a mental illness as well and often develops as a spin off to other undiagnosed mental illnesses. My DH developed depression because of having to cope with the underlying untreated one. Apparently it is common for other people to turn to drink, drugs etc. We agree I think in that he must seek counselling. But I don't agree that her DH is necessarily self centred and I do think he will benfit greatly from counselling. I don't think she should give up on him. To me it seems he has mental health issues and if she can persuade him to ge counselling life could get a lot better.

IncreasinglyDespondent · 09/11/2010 16:40

maktaitai and frostyfingers thank you for your suggestions. It's difficult to explain what DH does without making us identifiable. He is effectively the head of a small team in a larger department, but much of his workload is open-ended and self-directed so it is also a bit like being self-employed, and reputations are based on the amount of work produced as well as the quality. However there is an expectation that he will help colleagues on other projects and this is where a lot of the trouble arises. There is no chance of a job-share as I'm not senior enough and not qualified to do half of what he does anyway.

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