"Working" at a relationship - what does this mean?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I often read about long term relationships being "hard work" or the necessity of working at a marriage. Excuse my total idiocy but what does this mean, exactly?

Challenge certainly, but if a magazine wants to run certain articles then no-one if forcing you to buy.

Anyway, that's another arguement, and moving away from the OP.

What is this assumption that my opinions are based only on my personal experience?

My personal experience is that my xp did most of the housework. But I don't extrapolate from that, that most men do most of the housework, I take notice of research and I think it's very telling that consistently since research has been done, this has been the heirarchy of happiness:

Married men
Single women
Married women
Single men

This tells me that men do much better out of marriage than women. And you can deny it all you like and pretend that people who are influenced by popular culture are just thick (as if we're all above all that), but it's just so obvious that women are supposed to be the keepers of relationships.

I can't think of a popular song out there that says how hard a man is working on his relationship, except one by Blu which goes on about "flowers in the bed". Everytime I hear that, I wonder who has to clean the flowers away once the shagging's stopped.

But there are so many reasons for this - employment opportunities, children, education, income, expectations and so on within our culture. As I said in my earlier post, I think there is confusion about healthy v. unhealthy relationships and the amount of work, time and effort that both parties invest.

Now, it depends - if it were your xp then it would have been him clearing up the flowers, surely?

LOL Maisie - chance would be a fine thing...

I don't disagree entirely with what you're saying, I just do think that on the whole, women are prepared to do more "work" on their relationships, just as they're prepared to do more housework, because they are conditioned into it. From day 1, we are given the message that we are responsible for holding relationships together and whether we know it or not, we internalise it. Many women who have "good" relationships, still make more effort to keep it that way, than the men they are with do. The reason their relationship is good, is because they make sure it is and they nudge their men towards ensuring it is as well.

And of course there are exceptions to this. Many, I hope.

I agree insofar as I think women do tend to consider their relationships more and give them more attention - but I'm not convinced that comes from external pressure, and I don't agree that it's as one sided as you suggest.

Otoh, I would definitely be the one to clean up the flowers after the shagging!

Good point about the economics of it, dogfish.

I'd forgotten about romances, chicklit etc.

does it also stem from the fact that women (again sweeping generalisation and based on my personal experiences) work harder on relationships in general than men do? Compared to my brother, DH, male friends, myself and the women in my life make much more time for everyone they have a relationship with - I disagree that friendships ebb and flow. The ones that are never 'worked on' (ie developed) disintegrate, but when someone starts to become an important relationship in your life, don't you tend to put more effort into it, regardless of whether that person is your husband/closest 'mum' friend/someone you knew in school who has stayed the course?

I definately put much more effort into all relationships than the men I know.

When it comes to my marriage (bearing in mind we've only been together 6 years, married for 4, have a 2 year old), whenever we need to 'work' on our relationship it is literally making time to spend with each other because, like bling we (well, I) do not priotise each other on a regular basis. So far I've had it pretty good that DH recognises when our relationship needs work and when I'm getting myself into a depressional state, but both reap the same results - quality time with DH which he makes the effort to organise. So IME 'working' on my relationship has meant making time for it and the working has bene enjoyable!

Again, generalising hugely, but it seems in my experience that women will do sort of "servicing" of a relationship, i.e. low-level maintenance when nothing is actually "wrong" as such, just to keep it going smoothly - whereas men will want to do an efficient "fix" when something is clearly "broken" or "wrong".

This doesn't make men or women worse or better at it, just different.

I certainly don't think that there is more pressure on women to "do the work". Some people will inevitably say "Oh, you would say that being a man, privilege blah blah blah." Well, sorry. Not everything is a Menz Conspiracy Against The Wimmin.

If you have a marriage which isn't 100% right, like mine, then it takes work. There will be periods where you aren't communicating properly, and you get in patterns/habits of this that can just get worse. The reason we go through these periods of 'hard work' is because the overall marriage is good, we love each other and we want to stay married. I envy posters whose marriages are plain sailing, because mine isn't - but it's not abusive or miserable, there's a lot of good amongst the less good. This means there is work to do at times.

Right, so the servicing of a relationship when nothing is wrong as such... well actually, if only one person is actively servicing the relationship on a sustained basis, then something is wrong IMO.

Perhaps "servicing" is the wrong word. I can only reiterate that it's my experience that, in successful relationships, both parties work on it in different but equally valid ways.

If both parties don't work on it then it's not a successful relationship.

My point is, that the day to day servicing of a relationship is the hard work. Only putting the effort in when something's obviously wrong, is leaving the bulk of the work of relationship maintenance, to the other party.

It sounds suspiciously like blue jobs and pink jobs. Blue jobs being the ones that are done from time to time - putting up shelves, putting the bins out twice a week, mowing the lawn once a week in summer, filling up the screen-wash in the car every month, putting up shelves once a year. While pink jobs... well, everything else, really, that is done every single day, relentlessly, with nothing to show for it except that nothing is wrong. Invisible work, the type that's taken for granted and not valued. Most of it is done by women.

I think it was a good and possibly very fair analogy UD.

I'm with Laquit and Any I don't consider my relationship with DH to be any work at all.

Loving him, living with him, building a life and family with him, running a household with him, having two small children with him, all basically easy peasy.

He's a difficult git in many ways, as am I, but we rub along very easily together and always have.

If I should ever be so unlucky as to find myself looking for another relationship I would not be prepared to do any work at all. It just sounds so tiring and pointless, when you can be blissfully happy and not have to make any particular effort to be kind or give someone attention or affection, or not be annoyed by them.

After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that I am, in fact, a man.

I agree with HerBeatitude.

I am definitely also a man - much more work required by DH. In fact, most of my friends appear to be men too.

"Yeah but no but" I know plenty of men who do "pink jobs."

It wasn't my intention to make a comparison which suggested men do less. Just that people contribute in different, equally valid ways.

I'm suspicious about people contributing "differently but equally". Different but equal, generally means one party having a better deal in reality.

You said men come in and fix it when it's broken UD. What does that mean exactly? Because for me, that means women do all the grind work of relationship maintenance, realise he isn't doing anything, issue a divorce ultimatum and he then pulls his finger out, does the vacuuming, takes her out for dinner and puts flowers in the bed which she then cleans up after they've shagged.

OK I'm exaggerating, but for me, only coming in and fixing something when it's broken, when you let it break in the first place by not putting in the maintenance work, kind of proves my point. Or were you not meaning that, I'm presuming you're not?

I don't think it means that, no. I'm looking at what other people have said, too. I actually think perhaps that men do stuff which we don't see as "maintenance" and which maybe isn't even valued as such, but is. In our own way.

I know I keep saying it, but if your relationship is working, both people are working on it by definition, and if it's not, they're not.

So what is this way?

Can you give me some examples?

I am trying to understand what sort of things you mean.

Well, I think rather you are trying to make me post things you can argue against. It may be better to let other people have a go for a bit. There have been some very sensible and measured contributions above.

'I am definitely also a man - much more work required by DH. In fact, most of my friends appear to be men too.

I agree. Im lazy and my husband does loads more than me in relationship maintainance and doing chores.