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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

please help ..... can't deal with liar

33 replies

chattymitchy · 22/10/2010 21:30

please help Sad ... I'm coming to my wits end as to how to deal with XP over access to DS. Very short version of story - he didn't want DS, dumped me when 3 months pregnant, was horribly abusive emotionally. Then said he wanted to be a dad to DS .. which was fine. He came down after birth and created agreement with my dad about his visits etc (because he is so bullying to me I didn't feel I could deal with him). He says he wants to visit once a month. This begins. He lies about CSA constantly for months, and 10 months later still hasn't sorted it. After first six months he says he wants totally unsupervised visits. I say he needs to come more often so that DS starts to recognise him etc - he says no. Claims I am demanding and obstructing his access. Says he is bringing an assessor who will ensure that he gets unsupervised access. A total lie. There is no assessor.

I go to solicitor - she says he should come more often. In the end he does start coming weekly but claims he wasn't able to come more often than monthly before because we had stopped him .. clearly another lie. Then a month later after he starts visiting weekly I get a court order from him taking me to court for unsupervised access, and INCREASED access from monthly to fortnightly ... even though at the time he wrote the court application he was visiting weekly ... (so another lie). We get to court yesterday, his barrister stands up and says that my parent's forced him to sign the initial agreement, forced him to say he wouldn't come down more than once a month and said he couldn't visit if he didn't sort out CSA ... (all lies, most obviously because he wrote to my dad when he signed the agreement
saying he thought it was a good reflection of their conversations, and to thank him for being so reasonable ....)

So ... although we then went through mediation on the day - he has managed to REDUCE his access back to fortnightly from the beginning of next year, whilst still claiming that my family obstructed his visits etc.

I proposed that I would take DS to a dad's morning at a surestart centre on Saturdays each week so that XP could spend time getting to know DS ... he said, NO, only once a fortnight.

I was then told by the mediator that he had cancelled his visit to see DS this weekend because something had come up ..... he only told me four days ago he was definitely coming, because we discussed it in detail when we were talking about which day of the weekend he was coming.

Anyway ..... sorry this is so so long.

His lies seem to have no consequences. And I can't cope with the thought of having to deal with him for the next 18 years. He makes a decision, then when it doesn't suit him he lies and said he was forced or bullied to make it. And even when texts, emails from him to me totally and utterly contradict what he says ... if I bring it up he just refuses to discuss it.

I'm so pissed off I'm tempted to say that I was 'forced' to say I would drop DS off at surestart and that I wasn't going to do it after all, and see how he likes it.

IF anyone has any constructive ways to deal with this sort of thing please let me know. I'm at my wits end, and I'm fed up of me and my family being attacked just so he can shift responsibility for his decisions back onto us.

Sad
OP posts:
Boys2mam · 22/10/2010 22:22

I'm so sorry you have this to deal with.

I have no constructive advice, if it were me I would record dates/times of his contact in a diary and refuse any further contact unless through a solicitor.

chattymitchy · 22/10/2010 22:28

thanks boys2mam.

I tried solicitor .. she asked him to come more often ... he said we had stopped him in the past and were obstructing his access (?!!!!) ... we refuted every single thing he said ... he ignored our letter, did start coming every week, but then filed the court application and now has it back down to fortnightly ....

When he lies, if I bring it up, or if a solicitor brings it up, he just refuses point blank to discuss it further. There seems to be nothing I can do to deal with him.

I'm tempted to move away from my friends and family just to stop him from messing with my head ALL the time. I can't cope anymore with it Sad

And why do I want my DS spending time with a lying manipulative twunt who is far from 'desperate' to spend time with his son. Apparently he has things 'going on' in his life which means he can't commit more than a few hours each fortnight.

Am just feeling so miserable and angry about it.

OP posts:
Boys2mam · 22/10/2010 23:18

Hmmmmm, when my ex-h played silly beggar my family said to me "tell him if he wants to see his son he knows where he lives" - could you refuse any further interaction and let him do the running?

chattymitchy · 22/10/2010 23:28

he'd just use it to his advantage Sad

I don't think he really wants to put in the effort to see DS at all, by making access difficult I'd play into his hands - he'd stop coming and then have a great excuse make it my fault. And when DS is older XP would take great pleasure in telling him how I'd not let daddy visit him [bleugh]

I have to endlessly take the moral high ground, whilst sweeping his lies and bullying under the carpet. I just can't do it forever. But unless there's serious consequences to his lying he won't stop.

Oh god. I've had enough of it already.

OP posts:
TheMotherOfAllDilemmas · 23/10/2010 00:50

I have been in a similar position. My advice is very simple:

  • Record everything.
  • Stop talking, texting, or ringing him. Do organise meetings via email, so that there is a well established record that you can later present in court. If he doesn't show up/cancels put it in the record to by sending him a note saying "We are sorry you couldn't make it, DS and I were waiting for you from x to Z in Y.
  • Always say the last word. (like "I regret to hear your decision to..., etc) but show you are willing for the access to continue (like I am happy for DS to meet you... or "I'm sorry you couldn't make it, next time please let us know X hrs in advance please).

Do it in writing and send it via solicitor. If he takes you to court, all the evidence is there to show you are not obstructing contact but that he has been unreasonable.

  • Do not meet at home, always in a public place. And add details to the record.
  • WRT CSA, if what you are getting in maintenance is really a meagre sum, you might be better off not getting it than getting it through months and months of stress and hard feelings.
TheMotherOfAllDilemmas · 23/10/2010 00:54

... and don't make up for him, if he doesn't show don't tell your son "your dad was so busy he was not able to see him" because then your ex will come and tell your child that's a lie (children don't understand much about white lights). Just tell the children you don't know why he didn't show up, reassure them their dad loves them and find a way to distract them.

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/10/2010 00:54

Do you think that your Ex would be abusive to your son if he had unsupervised access?

TheMotherOfAllDilemmas · 23/10/2010 00:56

white lights? white lies, I'd better turn the lies off and go to bed.

SolidButShamblingUndeadBrass · 23/10/2010 01:28

MotherofAll's advice is great: record everything and refuse any direct contact with this man. He is not a loving father trying to see his son, he is a dickhead intent on harassing you - and if he does take you to court again, it will be obvious that this is what's happening.
And have a chat with WOmen's Aid, who are great on strategies for dealing with abusive men - while your XP may not be beating you up, his behaviour is abusive because it is done deliberately to cause you distress.

chattymitchy · 23/10/2010 09:32

thank you everyone, it's so nice to get some good advice Smile

I have emailed to say I was sorry to hear his decision not to come this weekend ... so that's done. Will remember to do it each time he changes plans/cancels.

The down side to what we agreed in court was that I would go with XP to a park with DS each time he comes down (up to Christmas). Apparently this is so we can 'develop a good relationship as parents' - his words (after attacking me and my family and everything we've ever done!). However, I'm clearly not that keen to be on my own with him, because if he starts making demands and I disagree, he'll just start being abusive again, and I won't have anyone around to witness it (which is clearly necessary because otherwise he just denies it ever happens and has done many times before - like denying he ever called me a fucking evil selfish bitch ...)

Anyway - I can't get my parents involved any more - they have dealt with it for 10 months and need a break. I wonder if I could just hold off on going to the park until I feel more comfortable with it? But then - I don't trust him as far as I can throw him so not sure I'll ever be comfortable. And if I don't stick to the court plan he'll make my life miserable anyway Sad

This all seemed ok in court but in the cold light of day I'm not happy about it just me and him.

Lastly - over the past few months he has ALWAYS visited with his friends .... which started off with him just turning up with a female friend ... and has turned into his friends and family coming on every visit.

We accommodated it to prevent him from saying we were being obstructive .. although that clearly didn't work! But now I'm wondering whether I have to say that his friends/family are still welcome, or whether I can just say it has to be him on his own?

OP posts:
chattymitchy · 23/10/2010 22:57

Have also spoken to Womens Aid today - they took it quite seriously so it was good to know that it's not something that I should be expected to put up with!

OP posts:
NonnoMum · 23/10/2010 23:16

Sorry that you are going through this. Sounds like some very good advice on here.

The post about NOT texting seems good advice.

Wonder if you can change you phone number etc so that everything can only be done by post (or through a third party) so that things can't change at the last minute.

Sounds a bit odd that he turns up with friends and family... but maybe he is very young??

I hope you get some sort of resolve soon.

chattymitchy · 23/10/2010 23:31

he's not young - he's 39!!

He only started turning up with friends and family after he had lied about giving the CSA his property details, and also lied about an 'assessor' who was apparently coming to change contact arrangments (no such assessor) - and we started asking awkward questions ... to avoid such 'bullying' as he called it - he just started turning up with people.

God - even when I read it back it sounds so messed up - he's 38 for fucks sake and took me to court to decrease access. What a twunt.

OP posts:
NonnoMum · 24/10/2010 20:48

Stay strong. Stay civil.

chattymitchy · 26/10/2010 19:59

Do I have any responsibility to accommodate XP's friends when he visits DS at my parent's house, or to have to agree to meet his friends if/when we leave the house with DS?

I have emailed XP to say that we can no longer accommodate his friends during his contact, he said we could arrange to meet them locally away from the house - I said no. It's gone ominously silent ... I'm wondering what horror he's going to come back with, but thought Id better check to see whether I do have to facilitate his friends having contact with DS??

OP posts:
ItsGhoulAgain · 27/10/2010 13:51

Why the hell should you? However, I don't suppose you can stop him seeing his friends when he sees DS - unless there are legally enforceable reasons why not.

If you mean altering the times & places of DS's visits, to fit in with the others, then of course you have no obligation at all to do that. His obligation is to see DS at the agreed time & place, not whenever/wherever he can arrange an audience for his devoted father act.

chattymitchy · 28/10/2010 18:28

I just think he'll say that because I moved down here to have baby to 'punish him' (obviously I moved down to live with parents as had no income after baby) - he will say that my friends get to spend time with DS, and that it's therefore only fair if his friends do to ... which I don't fundamentally disagree with - but his contact time is for DS to build relationship with XP - not simply time for XP and friends to see DS?

I have a feeling that he might just turn up with more friends this weekend, and I want to be sure that I can say that the visits are an opportunity for DS to get to know XP, and therefore they will need to arrange a different time if they'd all like to see him??

It takes the micky I think that he never comes on his own, but then I'm not my XP's biggest fan Hmm

OP posts:
colditz · 28/10/2010 18:31

Turn up at the Surestart every single time you are requested to, and keep a diary of every single visit. Keep all evidence, record all conversations - in fact, communicate only by email if at all possible, or text.

colditz · 28/10/2010 18:35

Suggest that as he only sees his son once a fortnight, that he might want to spend additional time with his son in order for his son to meet his friends. Suggest this via email.

chattymitchy · 28/10/2010 18:45

thanks colditz - that's a good idea - I'll say visits with friends could be additional visits, and keep the scheduled contact time to DS and XP Smile

OP posts:
Frrrrightattendant · 28/10/2010 19:51

so sorry you're going through this. Just one thing to add to the excellent advice on the thread, and that's that in a few years when your child is a bit older, he will begin to realise what your xp is like and actually won't want to have much to do with him.

I doubt you will have to deal with it in this manner for 18 years - also as kids grow up it gets far easier to let them go off without you. I was aghast at the idea of it when ds was a baby, totally aghast - but now he is 7 I would be quite happy, as long as he was iyswim.

Good luck - he really sounds like a total loser, you're doing well.

chattymitchy · 28/10/2010 21:01

Thanks FA - I just get the fear sometimes and imagine XP dragging DS away for overnight stays with DS screaming and saying he doesn't want to go and looking for me to protect him ... and I know XP would take him anyway, blaming me for brainwashing DS .....

It's not a very constructive thought Hmm but I know it happens from stories on here - and XP has already shown he's just not interested in waiting for DS to form a proper bond with him before unsupervised contact starts, and that if DS isn't happy about contact XP will make it all my fault Sad

what a fucking nightmare. Or maybe I could just look at it more positively, that XP is going to stop being a lying twunt, that he really cares about DS, and that DS is going to form a great bond with him and enjoy spending time with him, and that XP will be a great role model Hmm

OP posts:
Frrrrightattendant · 29/10/2010 06:44

Well it is completely understandable to imagine and dread that type of scenario, you're right, it does happen on occasion. what you have to remember is the more upset he sees you are, the further he will take it - this is all about him saving face and taking control. He's using the situation to feel big about himself at your expense...my guess is some deep anger issues against women in general, or similar.

Also, th fact he has reduced contact says a great deal about his actual motives. It makes literally zero sense - claiming obstruction and yet wanting less responsibility. Therefore all about saving face.

If you CAN, then try a different tack. What you need (and this worked with an ex of mine, very very well) is have a wall up inside your head. Feel strong - remember that no one in the world can force you to love, like or give house room to this man, ever again - there's no law to make you like him or even smile. All you have to do is comply with the law, and you and ds can do that atm so don't look too far ahead.

This man is a jerk. You have the wall up, right? So everything he does is going to be ineffectual. You tell yourself you don't give a shit, he is such a dickhead. He's also a bit thick from what you've said.

keep his motive in mind. pretend you don't really find him upsetting. Be the broken record - keep to your plan, 'please could you only contact me at such and such a time, on such and such a day, otherwise I will not answer' and just make it very clear where you are and what the rules are. If he breaks them it's his own problem.

You also need to be very clear on what you want. It sounds a bit confused - ie you want him to have 'good' contact with ds, but that's clearly, clearly impossible - he's actuing like a complete twunt to both of you, it's not even about ds to him. He migt believe it is but it ain't.

So drop the guilt - it's not your fault. I would go with the basic endeavour to make any contact he has as infrequent and brief as possible - don't tell him this of course! - and this will ensure ds sees you as the important person and ex will be less able to rock his little world, when he does turn up.
I would try and keep it out of court if poss. Be very polite, very pleasant but at the same time, cold.
You can laugh a bit at the ludicrous things he says but be genuinely unrockable..'really? I don't think that's such a great idea, do you?'! sort of thing. You are bigger than him inside.

Once he knows he doesn't frighten you, he will get bored. He's your classic bully who hasn't a clue what to do with his spoils. He doesn't really want them Sad

I maintained this attitude with ex. He started off being like 'I really want to get back with you, pleeeease trust me' ha ha (I was also 3m pg when dumped!) It was clear he didn't want another child/responsibility but was under pressure from his mum not to look like the bastard in all this.
i laughed off this bit anyway, and then he was cross because I named ds without asking his approval, and then he said he'd come and see ds at 2 weeks old. I agreed, keeping it very business like - no arguing, no aggro, just, yes, fine, see you then. Gave him the rope - he never showed up.

I didn't hear from him for 3 years - result Smile
Reverse psychology works well. If you are hard hearted yet polite they can generally find a way to blame you for the fact they can't turn up. As long as they can tell other people you were 'mean' to them or something, or stopped them coming (actually they are just afraid of your very calm anger)
they will often bugger off and you can then get on with your life.

Agree to most things, in theory, and i bet he won't bother. He's proved he doesn't actually want the access. Give him enough rope etc.

Frrrrightattendant · 29/10/2010 06:52

So sorry, epic post! Smile

Basically it comes down to being utterly, utterly reasonable but maintaining the fact you would really rather not bother with him. He is a nuisance to you, but you understand he has to be involved, so you will do what you have to.

But treat him as something undesirable and basically a necessary evil, and don't be nicey nicey and don't be rude. Just you are very busy and have a life to get on with once he's had his turn.

You need to be clear - you CAN give ds a brilliant life without any help from this tosser. Ds won't even remember him much at this age. He won't be upset if you aren't - my first child's father left and I loved him, and was devastated so spoke with ds about him too much, and ds got upset. Ds2's dad was never an issue, because I was grateful he was gone...I don't think ds2 will care at all. Smile

pinemartina · 29/10/2010 08:46

Fa - excellent post! Totally agree.

Cm - so sorry you are going through this.

In my case - very similar situation - I did exactly what FA is suggesting (only after posting on MN)....and xp has - so far -not been seen since.DD is 7 months old and he has not been in contact since she was 2 weeks old.

I m confident that in the - unlikely - event that he does show up,I will resume the cold,polite,reasonable attitude,and hopefully, he will bugger off again.Either way,I am stronger now and couldn't give a toss about him!

And my dd - like your ds - will be just fine without such a bullying f up around.

Good luck Smile