Genuine advice needed - please be kind

[eToTheiPi]

Have posted in AIBU and was flamed for being a doormat. Long story short, went away with dd for a few days incl going into hospital (am 39 weeks pg) and came home to kitchen a mess and no washing done.

Now I understand that this is all my fault for accepting things but wanted advice on how to change from being said doormat?

DH rarely does the "day to day" chores including food shopping, cooking, cleaning, washing etc, even when we were working full time with a dd. He expects to do even less now that I am on Maternity leave. He has aways bathed our dd as I wanted to give him a "job" that was his a)to bond with her and b) to give me 5 mins peace to cook tea.

We have been together 17 years and lived together for 12. I always feel that I've been a disappointment to my parents and to him - I'm not the most tidy but I do try, but sometimes when he leaves everything at his beam end it's hard to get motivated. I have found fly lady and try to keep my sink shiny!!!

I'm already teary and emotional but it is time to bring up with him what I'm feeling, my question is - how do I go about it? Please if you just want to call me a doormat again, don't. I know I'm lucky, some of the stories on here are horrific and although I've only joined MN recently I like the straight forward, no nonsense advice given.

Sorry for long post and thank you for reading.

As a first step you could stop washing his clothes. He needs to realise that housework is a shared responsibility, not your 'job'.

Write him a letter telling him how you feel and what you need him to do. You are well within your rights to ask him to step up to the mark concerning housework. By writing a letter, you don't have to worry about getting teary/emotional. Then take it from there. Good luck.

BTW, I don't think you are a doormat. Sometimes these situations just creep up on you.

I read your other thread (thats why I don't post in aibu ) and I don't think you are a doormat but I do think hes taking you for granted. In your position I would play up the tiredness/backache and tell him you need him to muck in. Can you write him a list of chores to do? Its best to deal with this now before the baby arrives, you'd need to be superwoman to look after a 3yo and a newborn as well as housework and cooking

Thank you for your replies and agree with aibu! once bitten...

I've had to tell him I can't sleep and that I want to talk but not at this time of night when he has to be up at 6 to go to work.

I really try when I ask him not to say "can you do such and such for me?" but he seem's oblivious of what's needed to keep on top of the day to day house stuff. I actually earn more than him (just) and we've joked about him having the time off and me going back to work, but I think he would be horrified if that happened.

I am almost wishing for another c section and him to see what needs to be done with dd every day and keep on top of the house, but I know both my Mum and his Mum would rally round and do it for him.

Thank you for being kind, I feel a little better

2 different scenarios really.

When you are 39 weeks pregnant he should be stepping up to the plate and doing the vast majority of the housework.

Once you have the baby and have got over that and things have settled down.. you should do the vast majority of housework.

I dont think it is womans work, it is SAHP work.

Once (or if) you go back to work, thwen things need to be equalised again.

Things probably wont "settle down"til after your mat leave stops ,so best to try and sort this b4 baby comes along.Sometimes people dont appreciate the work involved .Are you planning to bf new baba ,physically tiring as well as time consuming and you already have a wee one .I do think this creeps up on you and you would have run a mile if you thought this is what the deal was but you cant possibly be expected to do everything ,it will be a shock to his system but marriage with kids is a team game and further down the line it will bring resentment if you dont sort it ,just get some boundaries sorted and you will be fine ,stick up for yourself ,its not the 1950's and he will have to muck in ,let us know how you get on x

When I left X#1, I realised he actually didn't know how to look after himself. Couldn't work the kitchen appliances, didn't know the first thing about balancing a diet or a budget, couldn't put a meal together. Reeling with and , I wrote him a manual & bought him a cookery book. He became a very good housekeeper.

So, first question: Does your H know how to do this stuff? If not, he should (and will) be so humiliated at being found out, you'll gain the perfect opportunity to become home-care professor instead of domestic slave.

If he does know but takes you for granted, I suggest pointing this out to him in no uncertain terms. When you have your sit-down talk, make a list of EVERY thing you do in an average day - do this while you're with him, not in advance, it'll have more impact that way. Then ask him how many of those things he knows how to do properly. The divide up the tasks rationally, not according to which ones he thinks he can face doing / get away with not doing.

And good luck. You're not asking him to "help you", you're asking him to put his back into managing his own home & family.

I know I keep saying this; it bears repeating: Please remember there's a perfectly good alternative to disputes over housework, laundry, shopping, cooking & childcare. It's called a domestic agency.

Didn't see the other thread, but have you talked to him about it? He needs to be doing at least half of the work in the house because he is one of two adults there. It is not your job to clean his clothes and cook his meals and buy all the household cupplies - why on earth would it be?

How would it be if you tlaked to your mother and MIL, and asked them to support you in backing off for a couple of weeks. Surely they will sympathise that you are pregnant and knackered, even if they think that it's "your job" to clean up after the lazy arse.

Talk to him about it, and come back and tell us what he says. If he can bathe the DC without incident, have you tried giving him more "tasks", e.g. ironing, cooking dinner?

Hi etotheipi,

I really do think men are oblivious sometimes to what actually needs doing around the house.. They dont seem to bother about things getting untidy etc. If you didnt do these things around the house etc do you think he would mind?
Also dont feel you need to be Mrs Doubtfire. If your sink isnt sparkling dont beat yourself up about it. I do this alot, I think we all do but I know in myself I need to chill out about it. Theres a lot more in life to worry about than your sink being prisitne try and put some perspective into it.. your a good mum give yourself a break and relax.

In fact I do most things around the house like you then sometimes I complain, if i do he helps out but I think he needs a rota, I think that is the only way it will work. Make a rota for your family and put his name on some of the jobs so that way he will help you out and realise just how hard it is for you especially with having children too. It will get him organised and you will not feel so stressed out. I think women in general worry more about the cleaning/house etc than men. So in order to stop you worrying about it give him some jobs then you know they will get done and you can have more time for you.

Rx

Thank you again, btw I am by no means Mrs Doubtfire, my sink is about the only thing I keep on top of - it's an uphill battle! My parents go on about how untidy I was as a child and I'm sure DH thinks, genuinely it's all my fault, it's like the garage is his domain to keep tidy and the rest of the house is my job.

I have enquired about cleaners, there's only 1 (out of 2 locally) that has got back to me and she charges £15 an hour. I need to try and find this money in our newly reduced monthly budget. (Another one of my responsibilities)

I think that he thinks I do nothing all day but like I said, when we both worked full time with dd, my "jobs" were the same. I need to be able to sit and talk to him unemotionally (easier said than done atm).

In the past I have left things like washing and he's run out of stuff but then what happens is he will put a load of washing on of his stuff only. I think I'm just very tired of being the responsible one of day to day.

Thank you again for your advice

You mean he ran out of clean clothes and only washed his own stuff? Ignored yours and DDs? What an arse!

Listen you are not wrong to be pissed off - you are not his mother for goodness sake.

What if you sat down with him and did the list of everything and just said which of these things are you going to do then? Maternity leave is not a holiday, it's a time to look after yourself and the new baby, and it sounds like he cueing himself up to be even less helpful if possible.

What does he say when you remind him that he was the same even when you both worked full time?

The truth is, he is a sexist idiot who thinks that a penis is a get-out-of-hoovering free card. You need to make a stand and tell him you won't accept being made to knacker yourself out while he just sits and waits.

Out of interest, what does/did he do while you were doing all the housework at evenings/weekends? Where is he?

He has 2 "projects" in the garage, he's not one for sitting still but will never prioritise housework although it does get him down and we do argue about it, along with money.

I can't physically hoover due to pgp and spd so carpets are a mess but if I ask him he goes in the huff.

Mum lives 3 hours away and has been here to help and I've managed to stay on top of my washing but am refusing to put his away, as you said, I am not his mother.

Think I am overwhelmed and the thought of the exhaustion of new baby and demanding but lovely dd and the cleaning, cooking etc is just too much. When dd goes to nursery this afternoon I am going back to bed - what's not done will have to wait!

What kind of "projects"? Is it something helpful that you both need for the house?

If you can't hoover and he won't hoover - who exactly does he think is going to do it? Presumably your poor DD is playing on the dirty carpets while he huffs around?

It's not surprising you are overwhelmed FGS, and do go off to bed later and don't feel bad about it. You have another whole person inside you FGS!! You might as well be a single parent for all the help you have, bar bathtime.

Are you feeling up to a bit of confrontation? Think you really need to try to do this before the new baby arrives.

He needs to say what he think needs doing around the house. He must have realised that food gets cooked etc. Then add to it everything else that he's forgotten. Then ask him why he thinks he is exempt from looking after himself/his mess, as a grown adult? Presumably he eats the dinners? He doesn't hover above the floor I suppose?

What do you think he will say/do?

He is doing up 2 cars. As he does things like emptying the gutters, cutting grass etc which he sees as his jobs and will do at weekends. Of a night time he generally gets home in time to put dd to bed so wants to relax. As I've been athome all day for the past couple of weeks then I've felt it's been up to me. He did Hoover downstairs last Sunday but upstairs stll needs doing as does down again. It's never ending and I need him to see that!

I genuinely don't think he has given a seconds thought that I think he's not pulling his weight. I have just realised how little he does having been away and left him to his own devices!

You could always charge him £15 an hour for doing housework. Present him with a bill at the end of each week.

I'm not sure how serious I am about that, but it might make him wake up a bit.

Does he do up the cars for a living, or is that in fact a hobby? Emptying the gutters and cutting grass must take less than an hour, unless you live in Buck house or something.

If he's this thick about housework, he needs to get his priorities sorted. It is not ok to leave your wife to do everything in the house, while you tinker with car parts to "relax". It must be knackering for you to have to hassle every time.

Hate to say it but as a short term measure I think a rota might help. How about sitting down and explaining to him that due to extreme pregnancy you will be off games for the next few weeks, and he will need to take charge of a, b & c. Obviously he's not aware of what needs doing, so you're going to kindly spell it out for him. Hoovering obviously, twice a week enough? Put it on the schedule for Sunday and Wednesday. Bathing DD goes on, put that in every day. Cooking TBH at this stage he should be doing every night but ease him in if you're up to it and just put him down for four nights a week. Washing? If it involves lifting stuff and putting on line etc, he should be doing that too - if not, put him in to do that every other day, the days when he's not cooking.

Then put in everything that you do too, so he can see what it is. Cleaning up after DD, washing on the other days, cooking, shopping (although again with the heavy lifting).

He needs to be putting away shopping and loading/unloading dishwasher too.

Stick schedule on fridge.

I feel better about this now, thank you for all the practical advice.

I am going to try and sit down with him tonight and write out the list and try and split the chores. I feel like Supernanny! I realise that seething about it is a passive aggresive way of dealing with it, making neither of us happy.

The cars are a hobby btw

I knew it! Wonder what he would think of you sitting over your macrame or at laserquest every night, as an excuse to avoid shopping/cleaning/washing/cooking.

Can you talk to your mother and MIL today to get them on side?

Don't make too much of a deal about it being because of your pregnancy, that's your trump card. He needs to do this stuff because he is a grown man.

Try to stay a bit angry underneath - imagine what it must be like for these men, looked after by their mothers, then by their wives, with a whole life of free available time and thinkspace, never having to concern themselves with such trivia as feeding themselves or washing their own dirty pants. Children for them are just something to play with, no extra work involved - no wiping up, laundry, cooking etc. And all by virtue of just...being a man I suppose

It's not fair, and it's not right, and it has to stop.

Read this

Don't feel bad, there are lots of us in the same situation. I think people in the Doormat Club (and there are men as well as women in this club), don't want to speak up because they feel embarrassed to admit it.

I'm an intelligent, professional woman and I'm a doormat. I dislike confrontation so have ended up just doing everything instead of having daily arguments. I have tried everything - the lists, the rotas, arguments, discussions. I'm sad to report that nothing has worked so I have been forced to resort to work-arounds. I get a cleaning service in once a month to do all the heavy things. The rest of the time, I do enough to keep the place from looking like a tip, but certainly not up to a standard that he would like. If he complains about anything, my reponse is "please carry on". I do the grocery shopping online, and he has to do all other shopping on the weekend. I just don't go. I also cook as little as possible because I don't like to cook, and it forces him to make some contribution.

As you may have gathered, things are somewhat adverserial between us. I hope your DH is more responsive. Men don't seem to understand how degrading this is. I'm having marriage counselling because our relationship is now in such a bad place.

Poor you Frog.

They bloody do understand how degrading it is. They would just rather inflict it on you than degrade themselves by stooping to look after themselves and their families in the most basic way.

Shopping, cooking, cleaning, washing up, doing the laundry are all necessary tasks.

What I don't understand is, many women say they did "it all" at the beginning of the relationship - why?

I wasn't a doormat but yet, I ended up in a situation where I did ALL the housework, all the childcare, wasn't married, had not rights to jackshit and had a tiny, tiny amount of money transfered into my a/c each month!! so the fact that this situation has evolved around you doesn't necessarily make you a door mat in my opinion. You realise the situation is not fair. The question is, does your husband SEE that?! Is he prepared to SEE it? Does he think it's all women's work?

where do you go from there? A door mat is not somebody who notices that the situation isn't fair. A doormat is somebody who chooses to go on accepting it indefinitely. You're kind of at a cross roads now, so be careful.. but good luck.

good post and link from miasmas. so many men are just fed and watered from birth and don't give it a thought.

A man who was here fixing the lock on kitchen door just said to me 'oh you're cooking your dinner at 10am ?". I said, "yeah durr cos I'm going to be out for the day and then I have to do the children's homework so now is the only chance I get to make dinner".

Thanks Elephants

My H will do the "manly" things like mowing the lawn and taking the rubbish out. If he ever does anything like the hoovering he goes around afterwards as if I should be giving him a medal.
You're right - he would see it as demeaning to have to clean the toilet. But not demeaning for me to do it.

Am I living in a time warp? Is my front door a portal to another dimension stuck in 1953?

He's the way he is because of how he was brought up and his childhood. He's always had someone looking after him - I don't think he can change. He isn't even willing to consider changing, so a bit of a non-starter when I suggested HE go for counselling. Why should he? He's perfect after all.

I don't suppose he gets the link between our dismal sex life and these other issues - oh well, his loss.

Frog, thank you for posting, I hope the counselling works.

I can't believe how much your situation is ringing a bell with me. We've been together since we were 18, his Mum did everything for him - although I don't think he sees that.

The right to a medal is so true too - as is "I have just done ...... for you"

DH has said that when he's on paternity leave he will pop out to the garage when we're all asleep!!! He has said before that he wouldn't stack dishwasher/do laundry/hoover/clean just in case he woke us up! Am more determined than ever to have this chat.

Hope things work out as you want them to frog

First of all, don't take the advice on the other thread personally, I think they were just being a bit blunt, they didn't meant to upset you :-) I think most of them were just shocked that he was not treating you as he really should be at 39 weeks - like a princess! You are doing a really hard job just getting on with your day esp. with SPD and another child, let alone running the house single-handed as well - I am in awe :-)

I think that it it very easy to slip into doing more and more around the house and let the other person get away with more and more - it happens so gradually that you don't notice.

A lot of people (particularly but not exclusively men) are really bad at spliting tasks so that both people do half the tidying, washing etc etc. I found that despite me being extremely pro equal housework responsibility, when DH and I first moved in together I ended up doing the majority of every job as he would just never quite finish anything.

We had a chat about it and we now split the tasks so that he does all the washing, floor-cleaning (washing/hoovering) and bin emptying/taking out, and I do the cooking, food buying and general tidying. We both clean at the same time usually on a weekend. This way we don't argue about anything - has worked really well for the past 7 years. If something isn't done we both know whose responsibility it is.

I hope your chat with your DH goes well, and hope you can look forward to meeting your lovely snuggly newborn soon :-)

The thing is though, unless you make a stand now, while the DC are small, there will be another generation raised of men who think that it's demeaning to clean up their own messes, and someone (with a vagina) should clear it up for them.

Just imagine fast forwarding into the future (clue wiggly lines and harp twirls)...your future DIL "blaming his mother" (you) for your (real/imaginary)DS's refusal to cook/clean for his own DC because he witnessed you doing everything for him. it wouldn't be fair on you really, but it's true that this problem of men feeling entitled to domestic service - on top of love and affection - from their partners does carry on down the generation. Or imagine your DD growing up to wash the socks of some bloke who's far too busy and important tinkering with grown-up meccano to lift a finger.

The thing is, it's not that they avoid helping you with "your tasks", they have successfully offloaded the care of their own house/kids/bodies onto you. Good trick eh?

Frog - did you read the link to The Politics of Housework? It's 40 years old but nothing has changed.