Does anyone think people can really change??

[MinnieMummy]

Not me (honest!) but a close friend has got back together with her ex saying he has 'completely changed' after she dumped him. Apparently he has grown up, taken all her comments seriously, is seeing a counsellor, is bending over backwards to see her point of view all the time, etc. etc.

It all sounds great on paper. BUT he was emotionally abusive to her before (manipulative stuff like witholding affection and sex) as well as a total arse (I can't remember it all as I've been a bit busy with a newborn since then), coercing her into taking drugs (I know, her choice ultimately but he made her feel like she wouldn't fit in if she didn't) then telling her she should be 'grateful' that he stuck around when she passed out after having too many .

He has a 4/5yr old DS that he sees every other weekend so I can completely understand that he wouldn't want to disrupt his schedule, but he expected my friend to drop everything and spend 100% of her time on those weekends with the both of them so they could be a 'proper family', even when his parents came up too (once a month, whole weekend) and then would let his mum do the cleaning 'because it would upset her if I said no' in the flat they both were living in. Basically he'd sulk/strop if she dared have plans of her own/suggested changing the status quo even a little bit.

So, enough got enough and eventually she dumped him. I did the thing you should obviously never do, told her what an arse he is, how he didn't deserve her, etc. etc. and now of course they are back together. She says he is much better now, and I really want to be wrong, but I've read too many threads on here about manipulative tossers who promise the world and even deliver for the short-term, but then revert to their old ways.

Does anyone have experience of anyone actually changing for the better?? Please?!

Anyone??

I've never experienced it, but that's not to say it can't and doesn't happen. Plenty of people do, but in this case I'd put my money on that in time, once they get comfortable, it'll all start again.

Unfortunately all you can do is sit tight, hope for the best, and be there for her should she need you.

Nope.

Sometimes, if they utterly change their circs and lifestyles, they can manage to act changed (which can be good enough), but other than that, leopards.

i think people can change it depends how much they want to.
I have changed over the years.

It is more important for your friend to set her own boundaries and be confindent that she could leave again if she needed to.

That's what I suspect

We don't live close (over three hours away) but we are meeting up in the middel this weekend. He is coming along 'just for the ride' and supposedly will do his own thing while we catch up, but I have a horrible feeling he'll turn up early/ring to see where we are/in some other way check up on her basically.

She's not a fool, she's a very (usually) independent, feisty knows-her-own-mind type of person and I have to trust her on that. I just have a horrible feeling....

It can happen. People can make minor changes to their personalities relatively easily, but big changes are a lot, lot harder to effect. They take a long time too.

It's vanishingly rare for someone with abusive tendencies to successfully change their personality as it's so ingrained in who they are, how they see other people and what they think interactions should be like. To change that much would require a hell of a lot of effort to achieve and it would take a very long time.

If there was a catalyst for their abusive behaviours (like drink or drug problems, mental health issues that are treatable etc) then dealing with those issues may make the abusive behaviours go away. But even then it's very far from guaranteed. Someone who's a wanker when they're drunk may never drink again but still be a wanker at heart.

The bottom line is that it's a lot easier for an abusive person to pretend to have changed, albeit for a short time and if it gets them what they want, than to have actually changed.

I think for a person to change not only do they need to change their thinking patterns and automatic behaviour etc. but they also need to change external tihngs in their lives that are associated with negative ways. So for a person to change when it comes to relationships I think they need to be in a different relationship with a different person. I doubt a person can truly change if their parter stays the same.

Interesting viewpoint overmydeadbody - too tempting to slip back into bad old habits do you think?

I feel like I am being old and cynical and she is seeing the best in people.

Just hope if the worst does happen it's before they have DCs [gets more cynical and pessimistic with each passing moment]

What's the consensus on saying something along the lines of 'if anything does happen we're here for you' - yes or no? I think I'm going to find it hard to say 'You're moving in together again? FANTASTIC!!'

Very unlikely. Maybe over many years and with huge changes in lifestyle and therapy then it might be possible. I would guess that someone who used to be messy could learn to love being tidy (me ), things like that aren't too hard. However I doubt that a tosser could learn to be a nice person.

My abusive XP wasn't able to do it.

Nope. I don't believe it's really possible to change your basic personality although it is, of course, possible to change your behaviour if you are motivated enough. I think, though, that we tend to behave in certain ways with certain people and therefore I think it unlikely that this man will change, longer term, for your friend. He could be a completely different person with a different woman...

I don't think you should be untruthful or pretend to agree with something that you don't. But she's not going to change her mind because you don't agree with her so the best you can do is support your friend, whatever happens to her (even if you can see it coming). Can you say something like "I'll always support you and want the best for you" - not quite the same as supporting her decision, iykwim?

Ok, I am in a situation whereby I have undergone Physcotherapy for the last eight years. Not going into the facts, however my husband and I have recently seperated. I started Counselling training in 2005. He has told me he doesn't like what I have become because I am now more self aware om myself and why I do things that I do.He has recently had a "fling" with someone he met on holiday even after saying to him that I would like 6 months to think and reflect on our relationship.He agreed to that, however things happened.Not surprisingly this has happened as he doesant want me to change.However I have, he can't accept that.
I am the person according to him is in the wrong, however I have found out things about myself and him, unconsciously that have affected who I am. I now feel that I am becoming who I really am yet he cannot cope with that. I also have 3 children who are finding it difficult to cope with however, influence of father is very up front.

alip1964 therapy is the reason that I commented that I think that it's not possible to essentially change yourself but you can change your behaviour (I probably didn't express it well). I'm still not expressing it very well. I think the part of you that is essentially you doesn't change much but how you express yourself can change particularly as a result of therapy.

There are only two things which will fundamentally change someone's personality
a) years of psychoanalysis
b) brain injury

As others say, therapy will help bring things out/ cover things up, but fundamentally... once a total arse, always a total arse. She won't thank you for pointing this out though- your role is to nod, listen and "be there".

alip I think there is a big difference between an abusive person claiming pretty much instant results, and someone who has issues (and who doesn't?) who has worked on those issues over the years.

Abusive behaviours occur, as best I can work out, when someone has an essentially skewed idea of relationships and what are acceptable behaviours, plus a magnified view of their own self-importance and a massive sense of entitlement. Emotionally they're working from a child's viewpoint albeit with an added layer of learned adult sophistication on top.

Those are quite deep personality flaws and they'd take a lot of work and brutal honesty to overcome. It would need them to grow up, essentially, and that's never simple. I think it is very easy for people like that to learn to talk the talk when they need to but then struggle enormously to walk the walk in a proper relationship.

I think that's very different from someone who acknowledges they've got flaws and actively works over the months and years to addressing them. As BelleDameSansMerci says, a lot of it is down to communication skills. Feeling able and justified in asking for what you want, or not automatically responding in an habitual way to a stressful situation and so on.

Having had counselling myself I think an awful lot of the communication skills I learned are more to do with how I relate to myself by challenging negative thought-patterns, giving myself credit for things I do well, having a more realistic and balanced view when things go badly etc.

Plus there's the benefit of counselling in helping people to come to terms with bad events and, generally, to help you understand yourself better. At least, that's how it seemed for me.

I think that's a world away from what is needed to try to stop an habitual abuser from being abusive.

Snorbs I think you have it. I am actually a counsellor and have had counselling too but I've been really struggling with this - trying to separate out my feelings for my friend vs my professional opinion. Plus I've only met the guy once so of course I am biased against him - I only have one side of the story.

Having said that, the phrases 'acceptable behaviours', 'self-importance' and 'sense of entitlement' do seem to sum him right up. Sigh.

My spidey and professional senses tell me that yes, there's no way he'd change that much that quickly and this is all smoke and mirrors. Bugger.

you have had great advice so far, i agree he would need years of therapy to change! One other thing that has not been picked up for their relationship to change your friend would also need therapy as she would need to change also to handle him!

I don't hold out much hope of this reconciliation lasting long, if it were me I would say little and be bland about it, I hope you are happy or I wish you well, and wait for it all to fall apart again!

Yes, people can change

I have! I'm still at it ... ten years on
Good for him, I say. Hope it works out for them both.

Yes, people can definitely change. I have seen it happen a lot.

I have changed, quite profoundly, I have had amazing counsellors and therapists. My h is changing too, now that he has told the truth.

I think that facing up to your own personal truth is the key. It's tough to shake off other peoples definitions, and begin to truly grow into yourself. I don't believe that people are "bad" as such, but there are some massively damaged people around who spread their angst in the most viscious ways to try and get rid of it, projection, narcisistic fight/ flight responses etc.

One of the most "evil" people I know, my mother, is the way she is because she has never faced up to the sexual,and emotional abuse, and chaos that she endured as a child. I feel sorry for her on one level, but until she has the guts to face her stuff, I can't, and won't have her in my life. And I don't believe she ever will.

Just to add, that I believe that one has to look at the whole family, going back some generations, and look at the reasons why we choose the partners we choose, and take responsibilty for that bit....the reasons we do what we do.

I have been astonished, and I thought I was fairly clued up, that when I said to my h on the day he moved out, that I believed that we probably had more in common than we know, just how astonishingly true that was, and in how much detail that truth lay.

Mind blowing.

I suppose the relevan point to this thread is that their relationship will change as he does. Your friend may not be prepared for this. If she's expecting that therapy will turn him into who she hoped he was, it's all doomed and may even damage his recovery.

I suppose the thing to do is gently advise her of this, and offer your "good luck and I'm here for you" bit. Have a good time, anyway!

Meant to add, it's quite possible they were drawn together by similar issues - like thisis and her H. So maybe he'll be able to wake her up to her own stuff ...

It's all so complicated isn't it? Interestingly they did go to Relate and one of the first things the counsellor asked was about their parents' relationships so the history aspect does seem very relevant.

Thisishowifeel how long did it take you to change if you don't mind me asking?