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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

What advice would you give to a dad whose marriage has ended and whose wife is making it difficult for him to see the children?

29 replies

CrumbleGrumble · 21/09/2010 22:27

He's a great, hands-on dad. There's been no infidelity or abuse (on his part), although his wife has been emotionally (and occasionally physically) abusive towards him and is not easy to reason and negotiate with.

His children are very attached to him, more so to him than their mother, but now they are not together, she is trying to control him via the children (who are still living with her). Although he is lodging locally, she is only happy with him seeing the children every other weekend. So he called in tonight to see them before bed, and she yelled that he wasn't welcome and that if he turned up like this, she would make seeing the children difficult for him (granted, he could/should have warned her he was coming over). After a bit of shouting, she left the house while he tried to settle the children to bed.

His children want to see more of him. He misses his children dreadfully. He hasn't seen the youngest for 10 days. What are his rights? What would be a reasonable access/residency expectation on his part as a starting point for discussion with her (if she will engage in a discussion)?

He has contacted Families Need Fathers, who have advised he sees a lawyer, keeps a diary and stays calm and reasonable. He's waiting to see a lawyer. In the meantime, is there anything else he can do?

Thanks.

OP posts:

BooBooGlass · 21/09/2010 22:29

I take it you are the man in question? Just for clarity

TechLovingDad · 21/09/2010 22:29

I can only echo see a lawyer. It's the only way.

BooBooGlass · 21/09/2010 22:31

fwiw, I think he/you was out of order to show up unannounced. THe children will be having a hard enough time as it is and I can understand completely why she was angry that you showed up at bedtime and unsettled them

malinkey · 21/09/2010 22:31

Did he (or you?) set up any formal contact arrangements when you split up?

SolidGoldBrass · 21/09/2010 22:32

There isn't anything else he can do, and doing anything else might well be seen as inflaming the situation and being unreasonable.
TBH turning up unannounced and unexpected when he knows that his XW is hostile towards him was a crap move.

Original poster

CrumbleGrumble · 21/09/2010 22:33

Nope. I'm not the man in question. I'm a friend. I was wondering if a family lawyer is the only way to go with this. Thanks.

OP posts:

gingerwig · 21/09/2010 22:39

This sucks.
Good luck to this dad.
I am constantly astonished at the bum deal dads get in divorce

gingerwig · 21/09/2010 22:41

How many mothers here would be happy seeing their children every other weekend?

Original poster

CrumbleGrumble · 21/09/2010 22:47

It does suck, gingerwig.

Fair point about the turning-up-unannounced advice. I think he's feeling desperate. If he asks to pop in to see the children, she'll say no. If he tells her he's coming, is that being controlling? And not telling her isn't any good either. He has his hands tied.

They have only been separated a fortnight and are muddling along with contact at the moment, yet to agree an arrangement that's in the best interests of the children and that they're both happy with. He wants to keep talking and find a set-up they can agree on; she's being prescriptive and saying every other weekend, end of discussion.

Solid, is there really nothing else he can do? A mum can be abusive to her husband, often indifferent to her kids, end the relationship, and he has to just lump for contact once a fortnight? That seems so unjust.

OP posts:

animula · 21/09/2010 22:54

Gingerwig - I'm guessing you are one of those rare men who have written to papers protesting at the deeply sexist portrayal of Harriet Harman, and the resistance to all (so far, fairly pitiful) attempts to de-gender our nation's employment practices.

I'm guessing that you are one of the (rare) men who insisted on p/t work, in order to share parenting responsibilities with his partner.

I'm guessing you have made yourself unpopular at work by trying to push through organisational changes to make this an option throughout your workplace.

I'm guessing that you, like so many women, have found your career shafted by parenthood.

If you're not, would you mind please directing your outrage in the above directions. Because, actually, it would be so nice if women didn't have to do all the work there. And it might, actually, be more rational.

LadyLapsang · 21/09/2010 22:56

How old are the children and what care responsibilities have both parents had towards them so far? (ie. who is the primary carer)

He could try mediation to agree contact.

Turning up unannounced is not on.

SolidGoldBrass · 21/09/2010 23:02

Crumblegrumble - Once a fortnight is likely to be regarded by the courts as too infrequent, so it's not a case of him just having to 'settle' for what his XW suggests. If there is hostility between separating partners, it's always best to go straight to lawyers if they can't be civil with one another, it takes the heat off.

TechLovingDad · 21/09/2010 23:15

If they've only been separated two weeks, then everything is going to be very raw and fraught.

When I split with ex, I didn't see dd for over a month. Once things calmed down, ex was still a twat. Hence need for family lawyer.

aurynne · 21/09/2010 23:25

To be honest, if I had children with my DP, we broke up, and he was trying to tell me that I could only see my children once a fortnight I would go omental. Why does the mother have the right of telling the father when he can see HIS children??? Is this common? Why can't the father see his kids whenever he wants to? They can have an impartial person to pick the kids up if she does not want him to turn up in her house unannounced... but why exactly does the woman have the power to set a schedule for the father to see his kids?

cestlavielife · 21/09/2010 23:25

turning up to put the children in bed is not the thing to do.. confuses the children if nothing else....

if you/he separated then try to build the relationship with the chidlren away from the home with mother.

establish good times in your place.

take up the every fortnight for now and mkae it good and fun for kids - while going to a lawyer, offering her mediation to try and thrash out a more realistic schedule of conact.

it will take time - stay calm, cool and collected. record her rants - keep communication to text /email so you have evidence.

Snorbs · 21/09/2010 23:43

I'd advise your friend to remember that organising and agreeing child contact can take a long time. It must hurt like hell to only see his children every other week so maybe there are other ways he can keep in touch in the meantime - phone calls, skype calls, emails, letters, postcards etc. All of this will help remind his children that he is thinking of them.

I'd also strongly advise he doesn't turn up unannounced. I can understand the temptation but it doesn't help anything.

Keep all communication in written form and keep copies. Don't get into arguments about who did what and to whom; keep the letters short, polite, business-like and to the point. Child contact is about the child's right to maintain a relationship with both parents. Always look at things from that angle.

I am somewhat surprised that FNF suggested he contact a lawyer. More usually their recommendations are to contact the ex directly with a proposed contact plan and suggest mediation to reach agreement. Depending on the age of the children their views may or may hold much sway. Once they reach 11 or 12yo then courts do tend to listen carefully to what they say they want.

Finally, he has to realise that as he (presumably voluntarily) left the family home before he had managed to get an agreed contact schedule, he's got a bit of a hill to climb. It may well be that it was unavoidable but the bottom line is that, right now, his ex has the advantage.

That she was abusive and/or violent will mean nothing if he has no proof of this - police reports, hospital case notes etc. Sorry but that's just the way it is. Treat it as a long-term thing. He's starting from every other weekend, so maybe suggest mid-week contact as well. If he gets that then let that run for a while and then suggest more overnights etc. It will help if he is living close enough to allow him to do school runs.

celticfairy101 · 21/09/2010 23:43

Em...seeing the children once a fortnight would have been put down on the divorce petition and was perhaps all the dad wanted when they first separated.

As to the children loving him more than their mother? I don't understand. How do you know this? If this was put on a court record then it's confidential information and should never go beyond the family. As a friend you are not family.

Turning up unannounced is out of order and is in my view indicative of something else.

If he is unhappy with the arrangements a lawyer won't cut it I'm afraid. He will have to apply to the courts to get extra days. After all it was the family courts who set the visitation rights in the first place.

Snorbs · 21/09/2010 23:47

animula, what a snide and sneering post.

Are you seriously suggesting that any man who doesn't do all that must tug his forelock and be grateful for whatever crumbs of contact with his children his ex deigns to throw his way?

You do know that child contact is supposed to be about what's best for the child, don't you? It's not supposed to be about one parent making all the decisions.

animula · 21/09/2010 23:55

Snorbs - It was to gingerwig, not the OP. And I'd read some of his other posts elsewhere.

So, yes, I think it was valid, actually.

As to the rest of what you ask. Yes, of course I agree. I think it would be incredibly unreasonable not to. I thought your advice for a situation like this was excellent, and clearly what the someone in this situation should do.

TottWriter · 21/09/2010 23:57

celtic - they've been separated a fortnight. No courts have decided anything yet; this mother is trying to retrict access.

I know all too well how mean some women can be - my mum moved us all out of the family home one day and my dad came back to an empty house. Literally empty; she took everything, which then sat in a container for years going mouldy. He was provided with an address for where we were but no directions, and she didn't tell him what day she was leaving. (nor did she tell us, I came home from school to a new house. A few days later I was at a new school, having had half a day to say goodbye to my friends.

OP, I don't really have any advice for your friend other than trying the CAB as they offer free legal advice, but please tell him that children don't forget these things. They will remember that he tried to see him - they will remember that their mum tried to keep him away. They will remember if he is the better man in this - my Dad wouldn't hear a bad word about my mum in front of us for years while my mum slagged him off the whole time. It's not surprising I found myself taking his side (even though the marriage breakdown was blatantly 50:50 with hindsight, my parents both have their major faults!).

I know my dad filed for divorce on the grounds of adultery (long story) so my mum couldn't withhold access - I don't know if that will be relevant to your friend's case, but if she has acted 'wrongly' in any way he might have more of an edge. Likewise, if he is the wrongdoer, he may have a bit of a fight. I also remember that it all takes a long time and is very expensive. My parents separated 15 years ago and my Dad is still recovering financially.

Footlong · 22/09/2010 00:02

With 20/20 hindsight he made a mistake leaving the family home.

I guess there is a lesson in this for others.
Always get an agreement in writing in regards to a shared custody before leaving.

Footlong · 22/09/2010 00:03

Could he not just move back in again?

celticfairy101 · 22/09/2010 00:04

As they are only separated a fortnight then it's early days. If she is abusive (to him or the children?) then he needs to see a solicitor and apply for divorce straight away.

celticfairy101 · 22/09/2010 00:07

Tottwriter:

Thanks got that. So did your mum agree to divorce on the grounds of adultery? The respondant has to agree this by signature.

Tanga · 22/09/2010 09:22

Can he move back? Obviously very difficult and frightening if this puts him in danger of physical abuse but by moving out he has, as Snorbs said, given his ex the advantage and left his children in the care of someone who is violent.

I would also suggest mediation - the courts (if it gets that far) will want to see that this has been attempted and it can run alongside a court process (just to speed things up) Also he should ask for an interim order at the first hearing to reestablish contact with the children.

animula whilst I haven't seen other posts by gingerwig that may have upset you, I'm not sure you should drag that onto this thread. Your remarks implying that only people who work part time are sharing parenting responsibilities I find deeply offensive. And as I have never stood up for the loathsome Harman I'm assuming I'm not allowed to say that Dads get a bum deal in family courts either?

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