Feeling compelled to take in my MiL <gibber>

[popeonarope]

I really need some views on this because I actually don't think I can cope without screaming.

I live in a family of four, two under fives. We are comfortably off and neither of us work full time thanks to savvy investing earlier on. We're not massively rich, just enough to live comfortably.

My SiL left her DH a few years ago and in order to fund continuing in a big house in the country said to MiL 'sell your house and I'll create a granny flat for you and you can live with me' - this was the only way SiL could afford to stay in the big house. MiL reluctantly agreed as SiL would have to move otherwise.

A few years later they moved to a slightly smaller (but stil very big) house to save money.

SiL had very infrequent specialist work which has now totally dried up and she is now unemployed with no income. MiL lives in granny flat attached to SiLs house.

SiL has announced to DH that she can no longer afford to stay in house and wishes to move but can't do so because of MiL heavily hinting that MiL being there is the reason she is not a success.

DH has talked to me about having MiL live over the road from us in a house we rent out. We had planned to rent this house out as a source of income for the next fifteen years and then sell it.

MiL has no idea this is all happening and would be horrified to know she has to move again. She'd do it if she had to and I know she'd love to be closer to the DC (only grandkids), but she would be a hundred miles from where she's been for a decade etc.; she's also quite elderly and may need care quite soon and it would probably fall to me to provide that care.

SiL will not take just any job either. She's expecting to walk into a new career (she's not young) and earn at least £30K - preferably without having to leave her house

I'm torn. I don't know whether to say we'll take her in (or even if she wants to come) or to say 'no you must deal with the consequences of your actions.'

Oh and there is money involved. MiL has sunk a lot of equity into the house and would need that back to buy somewhere else. Which SiL has not counted on - she thinks she can just shunt MiL our way (depriving us of the rental income), keep the money and spend it on her living costs for the next 30 odd years .

I just don't know what to say or do. I want to support DH but I just keep want to yell 'she's a grown up, SHE needs to talk to your mother and sort this out and she should get a bloody job - any job - shelf stacking in Tesco if needs be, rather than turfing out a octogenarian who has done nothing but support her for years'.

Sorry. It's a long post. Please feel sorry enough for me to answer or suggest anything I can do? :)

"There would only be inheritance tax if MIL's share of house was above whatever inheritance tax threshold is."

Plus other assets. If the £1000/mo is an actual pension, that's one thing. If it's actually the income off investments of the OP's late father, say (which would not be impossible given the description of the overall financial situation) then the assets that yield £12K/mo these days could easily be knocking up towards the £300K threshold.

And of course, IHT is one thing, probate is another. Even if the assets are not liable to IHT, you need to demonstrate that before you can get probate. This sounds fairly tricky for the OP.

And, of course, there could be other legatees. Suppose the MIL has left some share of her estate to another relative, or indeed the RSPCA. Establishing the size of the residue could be very entertaining.

Pope - I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about your plight!

Hugely agree with the other posters who say that the will is the second most important issue here.

Just talk to an IFA about who in yr family owns what and get it sorted. You could 'sell' this to your SIL by pointing out that if MIL has to pay tax on her estate (which she will if you don't write a will properly) SIL could lose 'her' house.

Re the accommodation: there's no reason for you to subsidise your MIL, although you may have to help look after her. None.

Re your SIL: she must be wildly irritating and is prob on the take (in that oh-so winsomely vague manner) but don't let her distract you from sorting out your MIL and make it clear SIL isn't going to profit from the situation.

£12K/yr of course.

2rebecca - no we cannot afford to lend/give her a few hundred K - we only did so by selling a property we owned and lost the rental income from that.

In terms of monetary assets MiL probably has £30k or so in the bank - it was £100K but at least £50k has gone on refitting kitchens/conversions in the two houses :(

I suspect this will all come to a head this weekend as DH is going down there to discuss it with SiL. I'm not going because I may kill her I have childcare issues.

but killing your SIL may be the solution to all your problmes

This thread is taking a slightly tasteless direction. (And I am not referring to you, kewcumber) You lot sounds luuuverly.

if MIl is independent at the moment, why are you so convinced that she will be dead within 5 yrs?

Oh and I agree QS - slightly bad taste to be dividing the money up now! If I suggested to my (also independent) mum that she should take advice about her will, etc etc or take my own steps to "help" her sort it out she would tell me to sod off and leave it all to Battersea dogs home.

Because she's in her eighties, Kewcumber. Despite appearances she's on so many drugs she rattles when she walks and I have noticed a deterioration over the last few years (e.g. where she used to walk 2 miles a day she can only walk for two minutes now before needing a rest etc. She can't concentrate the same either - if she has to add something up she gets very confused - she was an accountant for forty years.)

well my grandmothe is 93 and has been in a similar condition since her 80's with no sign of any imminent demise. Of course she is frail and likely to deteriorate very fast if she gets ill but as she doesn't really go out and sees few people she picks up less coughscolds etc than I do!

She also has senile dementia (mildly) but that isn;t life threatening.

Yes and I know people can live to 120 Kew.....I guess you just have to suck it and see in terms of caring for elderly relatives. But one thing is for sure. If she comes to stay with/near us, it's a forever home and we will not shunt her out in a few years because she becomes a burden.

I understand (and my commetns on dividing the money weren;t aimed at you btw!) - just pointing out that lots of people in their 80's are not as healthy as they used ot be but are increasingly living into their 90's and 100's.

My father is 83, paralyzed and in a wheelchair after a stroke. My mum is 75, has incurable cancer in her bonemarrow (possibly spread to her skeleton), high bloodpressure, and Alzheimer dementia. I moved my family from London to beyond the Arctic circle to help care for them to ensure they could live in their own home for as long as possible (it looks like nursing home from next year), and to be honest, not ONCE did I think that I have to come here and ensure I get what is rightly mine from their "estate". Not that I am a saint or anything, but this thread is gnawing at my soul. There is nothing like moneygrabbing relatives arguing about who is caring for mum and who is getting what is "rightfully theirs", etc. eh?

I think you need to see a qualified lawyer that specialises in inheritance tax planning and will-writing or an accountant that specialises in family wealth/tax planning.

Not sure that an IFA is the right person to give advice here.

To be clear QS, I don't give a stuff what happens to DH's mother in financial terms. I care about what happens to her and her life. If SiL commandeers all her assets entirely and leaves her nothing we would still take her in and support her because she's DH's mother at the end of the day and that matters more.

I feel it's insulting that someone would consider themselves entitled to part of someones assets as inheritance when they are not dead frankly.

And it sounds like you are doing an amazing job with your parents. I hope to be able to look after mine when the time comes. :)

QS, the reason I pointed out the financial implications was not to turn the tide to rather unpleasant matters, but because the SIL sounds like she is shafting the OP's MIL, and obviously doesn't have her interests at heart, be they her care needs or her wishes for her finances when she is gone.

Plus, bringing up a will and the associated tax implications is a marginally nicer way of stopping the SIL from stealing her mothers money while she's actually still alive. Which it seems that she's possibly prepared to do, if her idea is for the MIL to live with the OP while keeping the house herself.

It would be pretty degrading for the MIl to be dumped on her son while her daughter seizes her money. Whether or not she technically needs it to survive, that financial independence is important to a lot of people as they get older, particularly if they rely on people in other ways.

I don?t twist any of us should twist this thread into a bitch-fest of mercenary accusations. Such a Mumsnet cliché, and it tarnishes so many carer halos.

The OP?s MIL needs looking after and an essential, compassionate part of that is financial planning.

It?s not in remotely bad taste to raise issues of where the MIL?s cash is going, partic as it seems she?s practically being robbed and needs protecting. And the only way to avoid an ugly row (before and after she dies) is to sort it openly.

Neither is it bad form to estimate MIL?s life expectancy ? people these days live, often in an eye-popping state of collapse, for 10 to 15 years longer than anyone expects, and they need to be cared for and financed for those years ? which costs a fortune if you do it properly.

Thanks Corygal. I agree actually the money matters - but only because money gives people choices - for example, if I were in MiLs shoes, I would bugger off to a new flat far away from the bloody lot of us for even thinking about this stuff behind her back. I'm absolutely livid that she has been put in this invidious position.

And I'm also really saddened because it's going to poison the familial relationships whatever happens because people will feel the need to take sides. At least when we are 200 miles away there is some distance between disagreements. :(

Cheer up - there has to be a way of sorting it out without ruining family relationships.

Maybe the first step is to find out what your SIL wants and expects, now and in the future. (If you can do this without exploding.) I guess you have to ask her first, not because she's the most important but because she raised the whole affair.

Then, without having promised anything, ask the same of your MIL. Depending on what she says, you and DH decide what you can accommodate.

To be honest, I wouldn't give MIL yr rental house - sounds too big and you can't afford it. If she has handed over all her money to SIL and, for whatever reason, it's not coming back, you could a) tell SIL she can't keep the house and dump MIL or b) if MIL is OK with her DD doing that, all look together at nice local rentals.

Good Luck! Bleargh. I think the negotitating technique you need here is broken-record, by the way. Acknowledge what SIL is sayign with neutral phrases but don't budge on the important points.