Feeling compelled to take in my MiL <gibber>

[popeonarope]

I really need some views on this because I actually don't think I can cope without screaming.

I live in a family of four, two under fives. We are comfortably off and neither of us work full time thanks to savvy investing earlier on. We're not massively rich, just enough to live comfortably.

My SiL left her DH a few years ago and in order to fund continuing in a big house in the country said to MiL 'sell your house and I'll create a granny flat for you and you can live with me' - this was the only way SiL could afford to stay in the big house. MiL reluctantly agreed as SiL would have to move otherwise.

A few years later they moved to a slightly smaller (but stil very big) house to save money.

SiL had very infrequent specialist work which has now totally dried up and she is now unemployed with no income. MiL lives in granny flat attached to SiLs house.

SiL has announced to DH that she can no longer afford to stay in house and wishes to move but can't do so because of MiL heavily hinting that MiL being there is the reason she is not a success.

DH has talked to me about having MiL live over the road from us in a house we rent out. We had planned to rent this house out as a source of income for the next fifteen years and then sell it.

MiL has no idea this is all happening and would be horrified to know she has to move again. She'd do it if she had to and I know she'd love to be closer to the DC (only grandkids), but she would be a hundred miles from where she's been for a decade etc.; she's also quite elderly and may need care quite soon and it would probably fall to me to provide that care.

SiL will not take just any job either. She's expecting to walk into a new career (she's not young) and earn at least £30K - preferably without having to leave her house

I'm torn. I don't know whether to say we'll take her in (or even if she wants to come) or to say 'no you must deal with the consequences of your actions.'

Oh and there is money involved. MiL has sunk a lot of equity into the house and would need that back to buy somewhere else. Which SiL has not counted on - she thinks she can just shunt MiL our way (depriving us of the rental income), keep the money and spend it on her living costs for the next 30 odd years .

I just don't know what to say or do. I want to support DH but I just keep want to yell 'she's a grown up, SHE needs to talk to your mother and sort this out and she should get a bloody job - any job - shelf stacking in Tesco if needs be, rather than turfing out a octogenarian who has done nothing but support her for years'.

Sorry. It's a long post. Please feel sorry enough for me to answer or suggest anything I can do? :)

Don't be pressured into saying yes to your SIL's demands - BUT bear in mind that she's been the sole carer for your MIL for years and that MIL is (your and) your DH's responsibility too.

This would be a dealbreaker situation. Through your SIL's behaviour, she has indirectly endangered your and your H's financial plans and stability.

As much as I'd feel sorry for your MIL, there is no way I would consent to taking her in. She, and SIL, agreed, so this situation is for THEM to sort out. It's not up to you to take the hit or get involved in this one, beyond supporting your H emotionally as his wife.

Not your problem, IMHO. Stop stressing. Your financial plans and stability and marriage/mental health come first - any change to that must come from your H's strongest wishes, at which point you can discuss if the two fo you will make that sacrifice.

p.s. "MIL is (your and) your DH's responsibility too", that's true corygal, but the OP and her husband MUST come first. They've made prudent financial investment, haven't taken on more than they can afford, have little ones - hardly a situation to be welcoming in the MIL, and a situation created through MIL's own choice and the SIL's own selfishness. It's NOT for the OP to tidy this up.

I agree with you frgr - I really do. The annoying truth remains, however, that MIL isn't just SIL's resp. - she's both her children's.

Forgive me for a second while I play Devil's advocate. If the OP were SIL, she could well be posting points like:

1. I've looked after Mum for years on my own and now the rest of the family don't want to help

1. My ability to support myself has been reduced by having a potty oldster to care for 24/7. Not only is this a big problem for me, I cant see how its fair to be criticised for that, partic if the raised eyebrows come from her son and DIL

1. Looking after old people is hard work. If she pooh poohs that, how come DIL isn't exactly eager to take Mum on herself?

Corygal - thanks that's a good post. Unfortunately, SiL has not exactly cared for MiL - MiL does all the cleaning of both houses and pays her way in full. She also requires no personal care whatsoever at the minute. Until last year she was working full time on fundraising for a charity - she's not old nor infirm yet thankfully.

She also has a pension income of around £1000 a month so its not like she's on the breadline either. MiL has taken care of herself all the way through and SiL agreed to take her in so she could have the equity from her house put into her house and agreed that part of the deal was that she would look after her.

We've not said we don't want to help. SiL spoke to DH the other day and he said he'd need to speak to me before responding and also that she had to talk to MiL.

SiL has no children, no job. I have two small children to look after. I'll also be going back to work when they start school.

Ow, my humble apologies.

Backtracking/explanation:

I didn't realise MIL was in such good nick -that does change things.

I didn't suggest you had refused to help at all but I did suggest your SIL would view hedging as reluctance - my message being that you want to avoid being made to look tricky to your MIL by a poss manipulative SIL.

New opinions:

Dont take MIL into your house. She won't be a Marvellous Old Lady for much longer. (Sorry to be blunt.) Having small kids and oldsters about is too much for anyone, prob even if you & your DH work only part-time, and depressing.

I think you must tell your SIL that if MIL moves, the housing equity moves with her. That's non-negotiable. Whatever you discuss or resolve, don't budge on that. If SIL gets tricky call an IFA and they will back you up. This may resolve matters.

If your MIL doesn't make a will about half the estate will go to HMRC, so 'the right thing' is the last thing anyone will end up with.

Finally - for the love of God don't mention that fact your SIL is childless as a negotiating tool (against her). While relevant in your eyes, this is seen by most people as rather mean and below the belt. You could cause mortal offence. Also, your kids won't be that small for long.

I agree with frgr.

If MIL has £1000 a month and equity in your SILs house that belongs to her so your SIL should be buying your MIL out if SIL wants to totally own the house and chuck MIL out, and MIL is able bodied I don't see the problem.
MIL decides what sort of housing she wishes to have and moves there.
This shouldn't involve you at all. She's not a frail, pennyless old dear.
MIL should be standing up to her daughter and getting her money back, or if she chooses not to do that looking at somewhere she can afford with/ without council support on the money she has.

Can SIL sell the house minus the granny flat (you said it had own front door etc)? If so MIL could stay there, at least until she needs more care, at which point she could sell the granny flat.

If MIL has made large financial contributions and on the basis that she'd get a granny flat then it will be hard for SIL to argue that MIL doesn't own the granny flat.

Of course this idea depends on where the house is and the layout - a townhouse with a separately owned flat in the basement is reasonably saleable, a country home that comes complete with someone else's MIL living in the attic is not going to be saleable...

Your DH does share some responsibility for MIL, but your SIL has to cough up the financial contribution in some way as well. I think you need to sit down with MIL and explain that SIL is considering selling the house and that MIL will need to consider the best way of getting her investment back.

It is Sil's problem. She hit upon the 'solution' of buying the granny flat for her own gain. Now it doesn't suit her she wants out. Tough.

Under no cicumstances should you let Mil have a rental house rent free.

I also agree with the poster who said it is rude to be discussing the woman here without her knowledge. Has Sil had any discussion with Mil? Did she come to you and dh first, looking for a magic solution?

I have no solutions here but I did live with my elderly mum, so here's a few thoughts -

If your mil gets a bit confused now, then moving is likely to make her more so. She's used to having her stuff around her where she knows where it is. For years after a move my mum was saying she kept expecting things to be 'like in the old house'. After a spell in hospital she got worse, she'd become institutionalised after such a short time and needed a lot of help re-establishing her old routines.

She also became forgetful, leaving the gas on, etc - all the while being totally coherent and able to do cryptic crosswords, etc. She was also fiercely independent.

I suppose all I am saying, is if she does move near you, you and your dh will have to help her a lot...and help her more than she thinks she needs.

She'll also need an outside interest away from your family. Mum threw herself into helping out at the local school(ex-teacher - you'd think she'd have had enough!)and sewing costumes for the local drama group. With your mil's fundraising skills, local community groups would be making friends with her in no time!

I hope things work out x

perfumedlife - SiL came to DH hoping he'd bung her a few £100K I think She did this before and he did. She paid him back eventually but it caused us a lot of problems and she's spent all of that!

MiL's bit of property could not be sold separately unfortunately. They could not split title because of the layout and location of the property and because there are various weird covenants on the property.

DH says that if she moves in opposite us, SiL would have to move within half an hours drive and help with the care as she gets older. But I doubt she will and frankly, I feel that would be no big loss because she is unreliable.

From her PoV she has assumed that her financial state will remain the same forever which from my PoV was never even likely, let alone certain. But some people just blithely assume there will be someone to bail them out.

And the childlessness was largely her choice, she had chances but didn't take them. No-one was quite good enough for her to settle down with.

If SIL put her larger house up for rent, would it finance 2 rentals?

No LittleMissHissyFit - because she needs to release the equity to pay for food etc. She literally has no money coming in whatsoever. The idea is she sells, buys a smaller house and uses the excess to live on. (Which sounds like a flakey plan to me).

oh hell! Just a thought! This sounds though it'll get worse before it gets better...

Can I just suggest OP that you inform MIL of all the equity and income that she has and push the cruise, cocaine and toyboy route. It'll really piss your SIL off, make you and your DH (who sound really sorted to me) laugh and make the old dear happy. The postcards will also make your DCs giggle and be really proud of their granny in the future.

When is she back btw?

Just a quick post here - is the mortgage on your SIL's house in her name, or is your MIL on there too? Only, if your MIL gave the money to SIL, then if she's had the equity for seven years, when MIL dies,your SIL won't have to divide that up as an inheritance. She'll bascially pot the lot. I'm not trying to sound mercenary, just wondering if that doesn't form part of your SIL's plan; your MIL really does need to make a will so that she isn't being exploited for her money, or needs to untangle her finances from your SIL's. It would hopefully stop your SIL from trying to waltz off into the sunset, which she sounds only too happy to do :(

The equity isn't your SIL's to live on though. Your husband and his mum need to discuss this and his mum needs to make it clear that some of the equity is hers. I don't understand how SIL doesn't realise this. If she buys a house with another person, some of that house belongs to the other person. MIL needs to be involved here and decide what she wants.

IF your sil sells the property, and your mil gets her share of the equity, bearing in mind that she also has her pension, would she have to move in to your rental property? The house you own across the street sounds too big for a lone old lady (you mention convert it to have bedroom etc downstairs, so I assume it already has bedrooms upstairs). Can she rent/buy something else smaller and more suitable near you?

Reading above, if your husband can afford to lend his sister a few hundred k then I would have thought 15k a year rental from a house and paying for a home help as MIL ages wouldn't seem very much to you.
I don't know anyone who could just bung a relative a few hundred k.

Only one person has mentioned the word "will". Situations like this can get extremely nasty when inheritances are involved, because people who mutter about equity from their parents being used before the parents' death being "part of their inheritance" tend to cut up rough when that is actually taken into account in the will.

My brother had a substantial amount of money from my parents for the deposit on a house some years ago, and they've always said it was written into their will. Except it's written in as nominal pounds, so he got £X 1990 pounds and that's "costing" him £X (where X=X) 2020-or-so pounds. Nice work if you can get it. My parents have now offered me £X for other reasons, which I don't need, but I'm inclined to take to cap this issue off so that I feel resentful about 20 years of inflation rather than 30.

If your husband and you are comfortably set up with investments, there will also be the "your sister needs it so much more" school of will-writing, which although it's obviously your MIL's absolute right to do so won't necessarily make for a relaxed family atmosphere.

There's also, if there wasn't a piece of paper drawn up over the granny flat, a substantial inheritance tax problem: if your mother-in-law died tomorrow, what happens? If it appears that you MIL gave money to your SIL to buy a house less than seven years before her death (ie, it wasn't an equity deal, just a cash subsidy) there would be inheritance tax payable on that sum, which by the sounds of it your SIL doesn't have.

Conversely, if it appears that your MIL owns a share of the house, there will be inheritance tax payable, and on her "share" of the market value of the house at the point of her death. Your SIL would have ten years to pay it (I think that's the rule for people in residence in houses subject to death duty) but it could be a lot of money which your SIL doesn't have.

Leaving aside the emotional turmoil that this all engenders, you (or your husband) who are presumably executors on your MIL's will need to get the status of the financial relationship between your MIL and your SIL resolved. If you are willing to shrug your shoulders over your inheritance, you should at least make sure there isn't an inheritance tax timebomb and you would at least be able to get probate smoothly. If you are not willing to let your SIL make off with your MIL's money, then you need a more in-depth discussion. Fortunately, "mum, it's not the money, but we need to make sure the tax man is happy" is an easier conversation than "mum, I think you're giving my sister too much money".

Messy.

hmmm.
My uncle (childless) gave my sister a substantial amount of money prior to his death (left for her in his bank deposit box in town) and favoured her deeply in his will.
He had told me about this before hand (because he was a fair man). He said "You are married, you and your dh earn a good wage, your sister is on disability benefits and need much more as she is unable to provide an income for herself.". Fair enough!!

There would only be inheritance tax if MIL's share of house was above whatever inheritance tax threshold is. This seems unlikely for a granny flat. It also sounds as though the house is totally in SIL's name, hense her thinking she doesn't have to buy her mum out.
It sounds as though MIL has no other assets, otherwise the situation would be simple and she could move where she wanted without needing her children to sort out her life for her.
It sounds as though SIL has financially shafted her mother and if it were my mum I'd be discussing this with her and the sibling who was diddling her.

Nightmare situation for you.

I think playing the 'keep the taxman happy' route is the way to go. And I would suggest that to do that you get an IFA in to sit down with your MIL, SIL and DH. He/She will be completely objective and able to advise the most tax efficient way of sorting any inheritance issues. In doing that the conversation with SIL is likely to be less emotional. And an IFA is likely to point out that she can't live on her mother's money.

If MIL gets her equity back could she buy the house across the road from you?

I think your poor MIL needs to be appraised of the situation long before any meeting, as she needs to have time to think of her future. If SIL has already decided what she wants, your MIL will feel unfairly pressured.

MIL may want to leave more in her will to her "poorer" daughter, but it needs to be upfront and not assumed by SIL. Also, she may want to stay living near friends.