Financial betrayal - a bit long, sorry

[FedUpWithLies]

I'm new to MN but have been lurking for some time. I wondered if you could help me get my head straight about this as I'm just going round in circles on my own.

Backgorund: About 18 months ago, my H got a £5000 loan out behind my back. We had talked about getting a loan to do some work on our house but, because we were struggling to pay our existing mortgage and other debts, I said we couldn't afford another loan. He agreed but still got one without telling me. I only found out because I opened a bank letter which stated that the money was being transferred into his account. When I confronted him about it, he lied to my face saying he hadn't asked for a loan and it was only when I made him ring the bank in front of me that he eventually told me the truth, claiming he had done it for us and he hadn't wanted to worry me, etc. I was very upset about it, made it very clear what I felt about the betrayal and lies, and washed my hands of it, telling him he had better sort it out and I wanted nothing to do with it (childish, I know).

Fast forward to a month ago and I found out that he has been lying about his credit card debts and a work savings scheme. He has racked up another £10000 on his credit cards and also set up a savings plan from his salary which was taking out £100 pm. The only reason I found this out was because we are about to renegotiate our mortgage and I wanted to have all our financial commitments together so that we could work out what the bank will lend us. Again, he lied and lied until I demanded to see his bank statements and salary slips. Again, he claimed it was because he was trying to protect me (and our DCs).

I feel completely betrayed by him, not just that he has now jeopardised our finiancial future, house, squirrelled away desperately needed money, etc. But also because he seems capable of blatantly lying to my face to suit his own ends. Anyway, after a difficult few weeks, I told him what I needed him to do if we were going to continue with the marriage, ie transfer all debts onto one card (0%), close his hidden credit card accounts, cancel his savings scheme, and a few other things related to his finances. I also said that if he ever lied to me again (financial or otherwise), the marriage would be over.

My problem now is that I can't look at him in the same way. I don't trust him, I resent him and the financial pressure he has put us under, and I find myself being quite dismissive of him. We haven't had sex since I found out, partly because I don't physically want him but also, I think, because I'm somehow trying to punish him iyswim?

What should I do? I don't want to finish my marriage but, at the same time, I seem to be sabotaging it anyway by being so cold towards him. I would really appreciate any advice. Would counselling help, do you think?

Has he told you what the money was borrowed for? Maybe he has a gambling habit or similar? If he has got himself into a situation where he is lying to you, then he clearly needs some form of help.

I can understand the feeling of being betrayed etc. But I guess (without having had experience of this) that if he has a serious genuine problem, then you would need to support him and help him get through it. And THEN decide whether your marriage can recover from it.

I'm sure some people will be along who have experienced this and can give some better advice. Good luck and I hope you sort it out.

I don't see that you can begin to forgive him until he is genuinely sorry himself. And I suppose knowing that he's a pretty proficient liar means that whatever he says about how sorry he is, you're unlikely to believe him.

Just give it time. Wanting to punish him isn't very constructive but it is very understandable - and I think that will fade with time. Do you understand why he did it? Were you very skint, or was he frittering money away? Is he contrite?

I don't think he has a gambling problem, I think he is just rubbish with money, he fritters it away on stupid things and there's nothing to show for it.

He travels a bit with work and a lot of the money is for petrol/accomodation (definitely work related, incidentally) which he should claim back as expenses. He does claim it but then doesn't pay it off the credit card, it goes into his current account and he then spends it on stupid little things, and we have nothing to show for it.

He says he is so sorry, that he realises what he did was wrong and that he can understand if I want to end the marriage.

We are struggling financially. When we first got the mortgage, I was working full-time, but left after DC2 was born. I now work part-time. I suggested going back to work full-time, but he doesn't want me too as thinks it benefits the DCs for me to be around when they are home from school.

Sorry to hear you are going through such a horrid time. Maybe you should check with a credit rating company such as Experian to make sure there are no other debts or loans, that they are not in your name too and that there are no other charges on your property except for your mortgage. It can be done on line and costs very little.

Also have you checked to see if you are eligible for Working Tax Credit or other benefits? There is a website where you can find out but I am sorry that I cannot remember what it is called. Perhaps another MN may know.

There is a very good website that helps you sort out personal debts called

I can understand how angry you must be with your DH but as Hassled says give it time.

MumsieNonna - I will look at Experian, I hadn't thought that there might be other debts, I assumed he had 'come clean' about it all. I'll also investigate WTC. I have taken control of the debts (that I know of) and have put in place a payment plan which should, eventually clear the debt - in about 3-4 years. In the meantime, we will have to live on a very tight budget.

My main worry now is that, given how banks are being so cautious about lending money, whether we will be able to renegotiate a mortgage or whether they will say that we can't afford it.

I know that it's not the end of the world if we have to move house, but I feel so angry about it, and upset for the DCs who would probably have to move school.

I think your right to have taken this so seriously , you are meant to be partners , the lying is outrageous as is transfering money into a savings account when things are so tight.

Sadly i think this is much more than about the debts , its about a lack of honesty and respect , being irresponible and what seems to be a sense of entitlement. You really shouldnt have to control the debts , you should be able to trust him.

I second what Fedup says about checking with Experian . This sort of thing went on all through out my marriage , i would find out again and again and the excuse was that he was protecting me , didnt want to worry me ect.

The joke is he earned well so shouldnt have had to get loans or credit cards , he just had a sense of entitlement and felt the money was his as opposed to the familys money.He never had an explanation as to where all this money had gone , certainly i couldnt see where it had gone . The most upsetting thing was we were struggling while he had this hoard of money , that said a lot.

Be aware also that in the event of a divorce these debts will be classed as debts of the marriage and you will both be liable for them. I mistakenly assumed that because all this stuff was in his name i wouldnt be responsible , but they will be paid out of the house sale as a priority , then whatever is left ( which is nothing ) will be divided.

I made the choice not to have credit cards and loans , he really didnt get to make the decision to put us into debt . How is everything else in your marriage ?

That's just it, Dignified, we both take a small allowance out of a joint account to live on each month (for our own things - haircuts, clothes, going out). I don't have any credit cards in my name, or loans, I live on what is there. If it's gone, I go without. He doesn't seem to understand that concept. I am also getting the 'I did it to protect you' line, when actually we have nothing to show for that debt, certainly nothing for us as a family.

I thought we were being honest with each other, a kind of 'in it together, we'll get through it' attitude. Clearly, I was wrong.

Our marriage has been ... I don't know how to describe it! Not awful, but not great either. We have just been existing I suppose. The last 5 years have been particularly difficult (due to financial pressures, work stress, death in the family, depression). However, over the last 6 months or so, it had really begun to improve and we were getting on great. I thought we were finally getting back on track, but it was a lie.

Just noticed what you said about counselling. Based on my own experience i would insist HE goes to counselling to get to the root of why he felt it was okay to deceive you and lie so blatently. I think your reaction is perfectly normal.

Id also want to know what hes going to do about the debts hes lumbered you with without your consent. Can he get any overtime at all to start paying it off ?
Credit cards . banks ect regularly ring their customers , they also send out statements regularly which presumably youve never seen , so he hides them doesnt he.

I asked as sometimes when a partner is doing this they are often showing the same deficits , ie selfishness , entitlement , lying ect in other areas of the relationship too. He clearly feels hes entitled to more than you financially and therefore cant see you as an equal partner.

Yes he hid them. He had one credit card I knew nothing about, and one I knew he had but thought it had only about £400 on it. He had online accounts for these so I never saw a statement for them until I demanded to see his bank statements and there were direct debits to the credit card companies. He then showed me those accounts online. His payslip is online also but I saw the savings plan when I asked him to show me the payslips.

Overtime isn't an option in his job. So, as far as I can see, the only way is to cut back even further and try and pay it off as quickly as we can. Unless, as I mentioned, I go back to work full time.

I know he won't want to do counselling, but I think we need it (seperately/together).

Is there anything he can sell that he doesnt need , boys toys ect ? It seems unfair that you now have to cut back even more.

I dont want to sound negative but have you considered the possibility that he may have a second bank account that you know nothing about ? It sounds like he wasnt going to tell you about the savings plan , they tend to only admit to the things theyve been caught for , as youve probably noticed.

You can check expirian on line for about 4 quid i think. Something else , and i might get flamed for this , but if i could go back in time , id have had my own savings account and id have squirreled money away into it where i could , cashback on shopping ect.

Sorry, had to do the school run.

He could sell his golf clubs and bike, I doubt they would make much impact into the overall debt though. I told him his personal allowance would have to be reduced by £50 per month to go towards the debt. I know it's not much, but our allowance isn't much to start with. He agreed to this.

I haven't considered he might have another bank account. Surely, there would be some kind of trail to show money going into that? eg a direct debit from his normal account.

I am going to do the Experian check. Perhaps I've been a bit niaive thinking he has told me everything. God, I hope he hasn't got any more secrets hidden away, I really don't think I could stand that.

My ex used to intercept every bill, statement etc. that came into the house. I never saw anything. He also defaulted on the mortgage, which I knew nothing about until I got phone calls from the building society asking when the arrears were going to be repaid. The bailiffs also tried to get in the door while I had my 6 wk old DS in my arms - over a debt I knew nothing about.

My ex also got a huge Xmas bonus from work when he got paid at the end of one November. I was still asking for the housekeeping 3 weeks later. He'd not only pissed his very large bonus up the wall, but also the housekeeping money. So, come 3 days before Christmas, I have to pay for food on my credit card - I earned less than half of his salary. Pretty bloody miffed I was too. Our DS was 18 months old at the time.

Can I give you some advice, a warning? I've dealt with 2 family members in masses of debt in the last ten years (in one case, £20k, in another, nearly £45k) because I'm known as someone who's reliable, have experience in the finance industry, and have negotiated with creditors on their behalf. I've also served to liase with CAB on behalf of a friend, although I wasn't as directly involved with her paperwork due to the difficulty of dealing with creditors/me not wanting to get overly involved other than to offer advice and point her in the right direction.

And from all my dealings with this subject, I've seen 1 thing stay true, over and over.

YOU NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHY HE'S DONE THIS.

Because in the £45k debt case, I later found out that her husband had almost left her 5 years before for running up £2k of debts on household stuff, swore never to do it again, etc. And then ended up even worse off 5 years later.

The friend ended up getting into more debt too, hers was from student credit cards.

In both cases, no real effort was made in the relationships or by family members to find out what was driving the debt reason.. it was all about fixing the problem and then patting each other on the back for the problem having been resolved.

Until you start to investigate WHAT was causing your H to do these things, why he could lie to you, endanger your future... you have no hope.

Is it that he is overwhelmed by finances and needs more input from you? (In my family member's case, she'd ran up the debt previously having been the only one running the house income... then her husband went the other way "taking control" until it blew up and he felt under pressure... till it swung back to her to manage... I've seen that in couples where they both take an active interest in the finances this is best... EVEN if one of them calls themself no good at it.)

Is it that he has something else to hide, like other posters have suggested? Gambling, affairs?

I am on a short deadline because my laptp battery is dying on me :o but i hope you get the point. I've seen over and over that, when couples don't look to fix the TRUE CAUSE of getting into debt, are doomed to repeat the mistakes. And surely as the victim in this you can't feel safe without doing that.

p.s. if overtime isn't an option in his job, there is always bar work or supermarket work. there is ALWAYS the option to earn more money with a willing parnter. dont' take any crap from that angle. YOU shouldn't have to worry yourself silly, scrimping, whilst he feels no effect from his actions. You've already said that he has no concept of "if the money isn't there, you can't get a haircut/etc" - well maybe this is the wakeup call where he needs to grow up and learn that lesson.

'He says he is so sorry, that he realises what he did was wrong and that he can understand if I want to end the marriage.'

This is the attitude of someone who has checked out of the relationship to some extent. It's a very blank statement that offers no resolution to the problem, no insight into how it happened or how he is going to prevent it in the future, with a get out of jail option for him that also conveniently places the onus of ending it all on you.

If you think the relationship is worth salvaging he will have to take responsibility for repairing your broken trust. This is not your job primarily although you will have to take the leap of believing him at some point. But for now, especially as you have been either drip-fed information, along with half baked justifications (protecting you, blah blah) and have had to find out much of the true picture yourself, he apparently doesn't understand or feel sorry for the damage he has done to the relationship, or the damage he has done to the finances, and he is a long way from being in a position to win back your trust.

Is there any way to renounce someone else's personal credit card debt? Did I see someone here on MN being advised to put an ad in the paper renouncing their exH's debts as and from such and such a date, or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

See a solicitor is what I would advise -- don't know where that bit went when I posted..

Lemonylemon - that sounds awful, and at a time when you were feeling vunerable with a newborn. At least I know the mortgage is being paid, all our household bills are paid on direct debit and come from the joint account.

Frgr - I haven't really gotten to the bottom of it. To be honest, when I found out about the debts, and after the initial argument, I just focussed on trying to get things sorted. I don't know if he felt under pressure, he doesn't really deal with the bills, I do that (as and when they need sorting).

Mathanxiety - your post about 'checking out of the relationship' struck a chord. I was quite shocked when he mentioned ending the marriage, it hadn't crossed my mind at that point as I was still fuming about the debt.

I think I need to do a few things here:

1. Do the Experian check. Assuming it comes back showing no other debts:
2. Have a proper conversation with H about what he was thinking and why he felt it was OK to do this again. Also about what else we can do/sell to reduce the debt.
3. Propose the counselling sessions.

As you say Mathanxiety, at some point I suppose I have to make a leap of faith and trust him again (not yet though) otherwise I may as well call it a day now.

Hi, I have skim-read this thread, so hope not to repeat advice already given. Many spouses who are considering ending a marriage salt funds away in a secret account, or spend money on themselves ignoring the other spouse's entitlement. I am shocked that he was able to borrow against your house without you knowing. IF the bank did not get your permission they may ( most certainly are,)negligent. If they are negligent you are not necessarily responsible for the debt. Talk to the Bank. You may find that your signature has been forged.

It worries me that he is overspending and you are trying to rectify the situation. Do you have a Mothering role? Why should you take responsibility for his behaviour? Why should your child suffer by you working full time to remedy your H's irresponsibility? Unless he faces unwelcome consequences, he is unlikely to change, why should he? You are sending him the message that you and your child will face the consequences, leaving him free to not change. What is he spending his cash on? Women, drugs, gambling, prostitutes.... You are talking large sums of money. He is unlikely to tell you as he is secretive. You need to protect yourself. It is not necessarily correct that the debts would be classed as matrimonial debts. If you can show that the debts were incurred by him and the funds spent on him, ie, that you did not benefit, you can and should ask the court for them to be paid out of his share of the equity of your house. Start collecting evidence. Very good luck.

I agree with Baggy , and also with what math says about emotionally checking out. Him hiding money away from you is a massive statement , as is his comment about understanding if you want to end the marriage .

Baggy , ive never had a credit card in my life , all debts were in his name , my soliciter says that debts incurred during a marriage are classed as debts of the marriage. Of course he claims that we were in debt and the money was spent on the family , i cant prove otherwise , but its certainly financial abuse. My ex got several large loans , hammered credit cards and as he never could explain where this money went i think its highly likeley hes got a large secret stash somewhere.

BaggyAgy - the loan isn't secured on the house (sorry if I gave that impression), it is an unsecured loan.

I have had a look at his credit card online statements and can't see anything obviously suspicious that he has spent the money on, I think he is just frittering it away on nothing. I do wonder how long he has been hiding this debt, though, because part of it was transferred last year from another credit card (so I can't see where that part of the debt came from).

I agree with you about taking responsibility for his behaviour and taking 'control'. I do often think that he behaves like a child in terms of not taking proper responsibility for things, or using his own judgement (even for small everyday decisions). Maybe I enable him in that respect.

This might sound drastic but if you are still considering remortgaging i wonder if it might be wise to have the mortgage / house in your name only ?

The problem with these unsecured loans is that they can easily become secured against your home if theyre not paid , a crediter can apply for this quite easily and you have no say in it , also it doesnt have to be thousands and thousands.

I know its a bit drastic , but thats due to my own experience , i never ever thought i would end up where i am financially and wish id taken steps to prevent it.

Well, I've ordered the Experian report and will see what that shows up. I feel a bit in limbo until I see the report. I hope it doesn't show up any other debts, cards, etc. If it does, I can't see how we can move forward together.

Dignified - Not sure I would be able to get the mortgage in my name only, partly because H wouldn't agree to that and also wouldn't I need to be earning enough to cover the mortgage payments on my own? It does seem drastic to me at the mo, but you're obviously speaking from your own experiences and I appreciate your advise (and everyone elses). It's made me realise that our marriage is going to take a lot of effort (from both of us) to sort out, if it can be sorted at all.

Perhaps you should consider being responsible for paying the mortgage so you know it's being paid. Let him buy the food, clothes, pay for childcare etc. which will be obvious if they are not bought. However, this would not show up if he is paying on a credit card and ultimately if you split up you will end up subsidising his debt.

Can you both make an appointment for some specialist debt counselling, think CAB does it.

Did he spend the 5k loan on doing the work on the house or has that disappeared too?

LadyLapsang - No, the £5K disappeared, I have no idea what he spent it on. I assumed he would pay it straight back to the bank as I told him I wanted nothing to do with it, but his bank statment shows he still has the loan repayments.

All our household expenses come out of a joint account so food, kid's stuff, bills all get paid from this and I can track this easily. The problem is that he has gone outside of this arrangement and got his own private credit cards and loans without my knowledge, and I wouldn't know if he did it again in the future.

I do think we need counselling, seperately and together. It's just so depressing.