Financial betrayal - a bit long, sorry

[FedUpWithLies]

I'm new to MN but have been lurking for some time. I wondered if you could help me get my head straight about this as I'm just going round in circles on my own.

Backgorund: About 18 months ago, my H got a £5000 loan out behind my back. We had talked about getting a loan to do some work on our house but, because we were struggling to pay our existing mortgage and other debts, I said we couldn't afford another loan. He agreed but still got one without telling me. I only found out because I opened a bank letter which stated that the money was being transferred into his account. When I confronted him about it, he lied to my face saying he hadn't asked for a loan and it was only when I made him ring the bank in front of me that he eventually told me the truth, claiming he had done it for us and he hadn't wanted to worry me, etc. I was very upset about it, made it very clear what I felt about the betrayal and lies, and washed my hands of it, telling him he had better sort it out and I wanted nothing to do with it (childish, I know).

Fast forward to a month ago and I found out that he has been lying about his credit card debts and a work savings scheme. He has racked up another £10000 on his credit cards and also set up a savings plan from his salary which was taking out £100 pm. The only reason I found this out was because we are about to renegotiate our mortgage and I wanted to have all our financial commitments together so that we could work out what the bank will lend us. Again, he lied and lied until I demanded to see his bank statements and salary slips. Again, he claimed it was because he was trying to protect me (and our DCs).

I feel completely betrayed by him, not just that he has now jeopardised our finiancial future, house, squirrelled away desperately needed money, etc. But also because he seems capable of blatantly lying to my face to suit his own ends. Anyway, after a difficult few weeks, I told him what I needed him to do if we were going to continue with the marriage, ie transfer all debts onto one card (0%), close his hidden credit card accounts, cancel his savings scheme, and a few other things related to his finances. I also said that if he ever lied to me again (financial or otherwise), the marriage would be over.

My problem now is that I can't look at him in the same way. I don't trust him, I resent him and the financial pressure he has put us under, and I find myself being quite dismissive of him. We haven't had sex since I found out, partly because I don't physically want him but also, I think, because I'm somehow trying to punish him iyswim?

What should I do? I don't want to finish my marriage but, at the same time, I seem to be sabotaging it anyway by being so cold towards him. I would really appreciate any advice. Would counselling help, do you think?

Sorry Fedup, just noticed you work part time , i didnt notice when i posted about the mortgage.
I think you are right to propose the counselling sessions , in fact i would insist on it. Although this is largeley about money , it really isnt. Its about trust, entitlement and massive deception.

Every year or so i would find out about another loan or such, or he would confess tearfully ( only because he was about to be caught). I wrongly thought it was about money, that he wasnt very good with it, a bit careless ect. I often took charge as you have and i would go without trying to rectify it while he went about his life carefree. Low and behold he would at some point end up back in the same position and continually lie.

I stupidly let it go , it was too much for me to consider that he was capable of such deep long term deception.
Of course im getting divorced now , and i stupidly assumed that a man who had hidden money during a marriage was going to be fair in a divorce !

Dignified - I'm sorry that you have had to deal with this, a lot of what you are saying seems very familiar. 'It was too much for me to consider that he was capable of such deep long term deception' - this is what is really bothering me. He lied TO MY FACE when I questioned him (more than once). I don't want to believe that he could be this underhand and deceitful, but I have the proof. Now, it just makes me question everything about him. Who is he? What else has he lied about?

Your right to question these things.

In my experience this sort of behaviour often goes hand in hand with other behaviours , sometimes so subtle we dont notice. I hope its not like this for you.

"Every year or so i would find out about another loan or such, or he would confess tearfully ( only because he was about to be caught). I wrongly thought it was about money, that he wasnt very good with it, a bit careless ect."

dignified, you've just perfectly summed up my relative's situation - thinking that by attending CAB together, arranging overtime, his partner's debt problems were fixed (but they weren't, it wasn't just they were bad with money, it was emotional issues driving the spending which no one investigated for years). So much heartache could have been avoided if - along with the practical help of organising the debt management - they had also delved into motivations/triggers too.

Best of luck to you. Fingers crossed your H realises what an idiot he's been, and what a risk he's taken, and starts to appreciate your help.

That is a HUGE betrayal and obviously he has problems with money, and deeper lying issues as well.

My suggestion would be to take over handling of the finances - see if you can open a joint account to have his salary paid into, and then have all the payments for bills etc. go from there. Tell him if he's serious about wanting you to trust him again, he'll have to account for everything he spends and to cut back as much as possible.

I think theres many reasons people do this , and i agree theyre often emotional in motivation. My ex would claim he was protecting me which was bollocks. Protecting me from knowing we had some money so i didnt have to scrimp and go without ?! Thats not protecting , its manipulating and exploiting. If he had squirreled away profits from a business partner i think it would be classed as fraud and he,d probably have been arrested. Wives unfortunateley dont have the same legal protection as business partners.

In all honesty i think he just got off knowing he had a secret from me , i think it gave him pleasure and a sense of control. After all , i couldnt physicly stop him . I also found out about other secrets that spanned the entire length of our marriage , most of them harmless and no need to keep a secret , but others that wouldve been an instant dealbreaker .

He was perfectly capable of lying blatently to my face when questioned, and also just as guilty of lying by ommision , failing to mention things that were important or that i had a right to know about. Its impossible to have a proper relationship with someone whos doing this as they are keeping you at arms length , lying about what theyre doing , lying about what theyre intentions are , and lying about who they are.

AbsofCroissant - We already have a joint account where the salaries are paid into. I have spelled out what I want re finances, honesty, etc, but still I can't draw a line under it. I don't trust him.

Dignified - the more you post, the more I recognise in my own relationship. H lies about the most ridiculous things - completely unimportant, trivial things where there is no need to lie, and yet he does. I pull him up on it regularly.

Im sorry to hear that Fedup . Does he lie / exagerate to others as well ? How does he deal with disputes or arguments ? Does he tend to tell you that your wrong / over reacting / too sensitive / that you said or did something you know you didnt say or do ?

I haven't noticed him telling any major lies to others, although he does like to embellish things a bit.

He does tell me I'm over-reacting, and that I've misinterpreted what he's said, that what I've said is harsh and uncalled for, ie when I said he was a compulsive liar. He likes to imply that I'm being unreasonable - laughing and shaking his head in a 'you're unbelievable' kind of way. The thing is, I'm not perfect, and I am controlling sometimes, but (and I know this sounds pathetic) because I feel I need to be. I'm not convinced he will 'step up' iyswim? Hence thinking that counselling might be in order for both of us.

Fedup,
I suspect he is emotionally abusive to you in subtle ways . It might sound minor , but telling someone they are over reacting , or laughing and shaking their head at you isnt okay. Its an attempt to minimize what your saying and to make you wonder if in fact you ARE being unreasonable ( your not )

He really doesnt get to decide how you should react or to decide whether its justified or not . Your feelings are your own and your entitled to them . A partner who does this is often minimizing , playing down your feelings in order to ignore them.

Let's hope that Experian report will give you some insight into what's going on...

I wonder if it's possible for you to declare that his financial affairs are separate from yours so that you are spared surprises of unpaid loans in the future...? I guess not as you are married.

You are married to a liar who has repeatedly and deliberately stolen money from you and your children.

It's difficult for me to see why you would want a relationship with someone like that, but if you do you need to act to protect yourself and your children from him.

Divorce him and separate your finances before he ruins you. You can still be together if you want, but at least his debts will be his own.

You CAN write to Expirian and the other credit companys and disasociate your self from him , but really it has little effect as you still jointly own your house. It also means you wont be able to check what hes up to.

Fedup @ 21.16: 17.09.10

He's behaving in that manner, not because he is abusive but because he knows you are telling the truth.

I agree with skidoodly. You can still stay together but in your case marriage isn't a safety net. It's a financial death sentance. Speak to an accountant (friend if you have one) and also to a solicitor.

This must have come as an awful shock, I know how you feel, but you need to take action. Good luck.

Sorry if this is a second post but my broadband is rubbish.

You are in a terribly difficult position as you need to take financial control to protect your DC and yourself yet this taking control will continue to enable his lack of responsibility and fantasy that he can lead a different life to the one that he can afford. Next problem is that the current situation might be a classic one for him to seek an affair as, if he can't get his self esteem from spending, he might look to get it from the boost of someone new wanting him.
All you can do here really I think is keep talking, keep being open with each and for you to find ways to make sure that you don't take the mother role in any other way in the relationship.

It is really important for him to work on himself - what sort of unhappiness is he trying to escape from with this overspending? Is he trying to deal with feelings of inadequacy by overspending, for instance, buying expensive rounds/paying for dinner when out golfing with mates. Does he feel that he needs to look outwardly material successful in order to feel confident?

By sorting the debts I'm afraid you have enabled him as frankly his credit rating needs to be trashed in order for him not to be able to continue to get credit. I would speak to nationaldebtline, CAB or similar to find ways to protect your credit rating while not allowing his to be.

To find out more about mortgage possibilities - there's a useful mortgage forum on moneysavingexpert.com

Thank you everyone for posting (I was out yesterday and couldn't post).

Skidoodly - your post shocked me a bit. 'Stolen' seems such a strong word, but you are right. I don't feel ready yet to go down the route of divorce. If at all possible, I want us to try and sort it out.

Eurostar - I was thinking that he might look for other ways to boost his ego, so what you say about an affair doesn't sound unlikely. I definitely have taken on a 'mothering' role.

Dignified/CelticFairy - He is trying to minimise my feelings, in order to protect himself. I'm not sure that I would call him emotionally abusive, manipulative maybe. But then, he might say I am. After all, I'm trying to control the money, I'm being cold towards him at the moment. I just don't know.

LostFeelings - I am waiting for the 'PassKey' to be posted to me so I can view my report from Experian. I hope that that doesn't show anything more.

Got to go, H is getting up. Back later.