10 months after discovery of his affair - still don't know what I want

[ange8]

I found out last November that my partner had been having an affair for nearly a year - mainly of the 'emotional' kind, plus kissing, but no sex. He was relieved that I had discovered it, ended it immediately, said he was ashamed and sorry and wanted us to stay together and he would work hard to be a better partner. We have two teenage children.

We worked through Shirley Glass's book, 'Not just friends', and did a lot of talking. Also went to Relate for a few sessions in January/February this year. I went on anti-depressants, mainly to help with anxiety symptoms, and by March I was feeling like we might be able to get over this and I could be happy.

Then, I came off the ADs because I didn't like the side effects, and frankly I also wanted to feel my feelings - was worried that I was turning into a Stepford Wife who could smile through all the pain because I was drugged up.

But now, I do feel my feelings. And they are not good. I am obsessed with the other woman, have a very low opinion of myself, feel constantly angry, and feel quite hostile to my partner. The hostility rises up at odd times, so we might have been having a nice time together, then something makes me hate him all of a sudden.

We haven't really continued talking after we stopped going to Relate, and so I initiated a discussion last weekend. Even the way he approached the discussion made me upset - wanted to make notes, have an agenda... I know these things aren't bad, but I just wish he had some genuine emotions that he could just express. I am starting to think that he has no emotional life, and so I will always be waiting for something I can't have (expressions of true intimacy).

I think, for my own self esteem, I need to tell him to leave. But I have been trying to avoid that as I have recently become unemployed and we have a large mortgage, so I couldn't keep the house on my own and I don't want to disrupt the kids by moving into a smaller rented house if I can help it.

Sorry - I don't know what it is I am asking, as part of this is a practical problem about what help I might get if I was an unemployed single parent in a house with a large joint mortgage, and the other is an emotional mess, really about how can I be sure about what I want to do (should he stay or should he go!)He really wants us to stay together, and I love him deeply, but don't think I'm the forgiving kind.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts about how you decided whether or not to stay together after an affair (when you both wanted to, but were finding it difficult).

Try the Beyondaffairs.com website, it has a lot of useful articles about obsessing about OW etc (which I used to do an awful lot). I think you are still in the early stages as well. I was still extremely volatile 10 months down the line, quite nasty to DH at times to get a reaction I think (or to make him feel some of my pain IYSWIM). 18 months down the line, we have both turned a corner (he was and still is to a certain degree depressed/stressed with life/business etc). I have started doing things purely for myself ie not DH or DC, making more "me" time as far as possible.

You will still be doing the 2 steps forward, sometimes 1 back, sometimes 3 back - we are all allowed bad days. Try and be nice to each other and go back to Relate if you think it will help. There is a definite wall that is hit in the recovery from affairs and you still have to get through the one year anniversary as well.

Me and my DH reacted to and reflected each other, so if I was moody/spiteful, he would be as well - it's the dance we did. You need to really work out what you want, you say you love him deeply so keep talking and give yourself time and space, even go away on your own for a few days etc.

Good luck.

Thank you, countingto10. It feels horrible to be where I am now, but I feel a bit better to know that you think this is still early days, and that for you, things got better. I am at the wall you mention.

I looked at the website you mentioned, and think there will be some useful stuff on there. This poem on the 'Should I stay or should I go' page of the website really struck a chord with me:

To give up.
God!
What a bell of freedom that rings within me"
No more wanting to understand what makes you tick
No more wanting to be able to communicate freely
No more waiting for reassurance, for explanation,
...or the words that never come
No more wondering what you are doing
Or who you are with
And then
No more depression
And FINALLY
No more hurting
And all it would take
...is to give you up
But that
...would take too much

• This poem is taken from 'The Monogamy Myth' by Peggy Vaughan, Page 177.

I just feel so defeated by the task of rebuilding, and despite the fact that my partner wants to, and is doing all the things he thinks will be helpful (letting me know where he is, doing housework, spending quality time with the kids, arranging activities that he thinks I will be interested in) all I want him to do is work on understanding himself, so that he can explain to me.

Yep I kept reading that poem because I was finding things very painful.

Is your H changing within himself at all or is he doing this stuff because he thinks thats what you want ? My Dh was going through some sort of crisis at the time (midlife or otherwise) and realised that he needed to address some serious issues within himself.

He wasn't just behaving badly towards me, he was behaving badly towards other people as well, his staff etc. He had never taken responsibility for anything in his life. He didn't change overnight and it is still ongoing eg today he had to attended a seminar to earn CPD points, he has always cried off on these things before siting illness etc. Today he felt really ill and was genuinely sick but he still went, with 1.5 hrs commute each way as he was very aware that crying off was what he did in the past. You see it was a small thing in the scheme of things but it was a big thing for him ie no more excuses etc.

I'm sure WWIFN will be along later - all these men who cheat, emotional or otherwise, have issues, character flaws, whatever, within themselves that they need to acknowledge.

Take care of yourself - I've taken up horseriding again in the last few months after a break of 17+ years and I love it.

Hasn't he done that then, Ange? Worked on himself so that he understands why he did this?
I think it's essential to affair recovery, you see, that the betrayer gets some solo therapy to work out what it was about them as a person - and all the familial and lifestyle vulnerabilities, that led them to this choice.

At 10 months down the line, we were still talking about a whole range of issues every night. These discussions were not just about the affair, but about our relationship pre-affair and then, our childhoods, our lifestyle etc. We still talk often now and we are over 2 years on from it.

But at 10 months, I still hadn't felt pure joy in any situation. I remember wondering whether I would ever feel it again, because post-discovery (and this is something I often suggest people do) I worked out that the last time I'd felt really happy was the month before the OW contacted my H out of the blue and started an online/texting relationship. So at the 10 month stage, I hadn't felt real joy for 2 years .

Since then, I have felt it, but I still don't think it's as pure and uncomplicated as it once was. I think the sadness lives with us for a long time and I hope it lessens as time goes on.

The way you describe your H's approach to your weekend talks is interesting. Are you saying that he has never been very good at feeling, or expressing emotions?

It sounds as though all these things have been festering in your mind and I wonder why post-Relate, you didn't continue discussions as a couple? Was there a sense of one or both of you wanting to get back to normal and sweep things under the carpet?

How has he reacted to you feeling as you do?

I think to help you properly, it would be good for you to tell us what his understanding is of why this happened and why he chose infidelity.

Tell us something too about the nature of the affair, how it started and how it ended.

There are lots of us on here who have been through this and have come out the other side with stronger relationships - and others who decided to call it a day. You will gets lots of good advice and understanding.

Is he changing within himself - I'm not sure. He has given up the activities that were part of a 'alternative bubble' he created for himself, that led to and then sustained the affair. He had become detached from me and the kids, and was severely depressed, before the affair started. Then, he started a new interest and met a new group of people, one of whom became the affair partner. I was in the dark, and was actually pleased that he had a new interest and was making friends!

He now feels that Shirley Glass is right, and that we should spend time together building new joint interests. Trouble is, i think I would benefit from doing what he did - not the affair part, but making friends and finding new interests, and I don't necessarily want to do all that with him.

The main thing he is trying to change about himself is his depression, which he's suffered from for the last 6 years. He's changed his ADs, and started to try to build fun into his (and my) life. But I don't think he has really tried to examine his feelings, and he is approaching the task of having fun like a military campaign, with objectives to be achieved. We are both starting to think he might be somewhere on the aspergers spectrum - when the relate counsellor asked him about his emotions and feelings, he really didn't know how to reply. The best he could come up with was that he had felt 'bad'.

I love the fact that you have taken up riding, I have been thinking about what would make me happy, but I feel like it's so long ago that I was 'me', and my world has shrunk so small, that I am struggling with where to start. I really need a job!

Wwifn - just saw you posted while I was writing my last tome - will read your post now. Thank you.

Ange* something I've written about before on here and something you might want to consider is that in the early weeks and months after discovery, it is quite an energising period. It's the fight or flight mechanism kicking in and the shock and crisis tends to make us feel on high alert all the time.

But after the dust settles and safety has been re-established, there is often this "wall" you describe. Looking back, when I hit it, I think I should have got some therapeutic help, because it lasted for a long time. I didn't want to go down the AD route and finally went for some solo counselling about 18 months post-discovery. Sadly, the counsellor recommended was not a good fit for me at all and really didn't understand affairs. I think I should have gone earlier and screened more counsellors.

I think it was Peggy Vaughan (mentioned upthread) who said that even when everything humanly possible has been done to learn from the situation as a couple, it often takes 2 years to feel "normal" again. I think that's about right, but others report that it took much longer. It all depends I suspect, on whether you feel you understand everything that happened and have agreed on a shared understanding of the affair.

The other thing I want you to bear in mind is that what tends to happen for betrayed partners is that they have low tolerance for their partners displaying any of the faults that led to the affair. Gremlins such as selfishness or laziness were perhaps bargained away before the affair, but are not thereafter. So Counting's anecdote about her H not lying to get out of an event is a great example. Things such as casual lying, an unwillingness to have difficult conversations, secrecy and selfishness have got to go completely. I wouldn't tolerate those behaviours any more.

Infidelity never really happens in a vaccuum you see. It is an extreme manifestation of pre-existing selfishness and a sense of entitlement. Stopping an affair without erasing the character faults that led to it, just doesn't work in the long-term.

Contrary to popular myths, affairs aren't necessarily symptoms of a weak relationship, but they are symptoms of a weak person. But people are capable of enormous change, if they have the incentive to do so. My H wouldn't want to be the person he was 2/3 years ago - and in fact detests what he was.

WWIFN - In the few weeks before we started at Relate, and then in counselling sessions with them, we did start to talk about why he did what he did. The problem is, his main response is that he really doesn't know, and can't recall what he was thinking at the time. In fact, he denies that he was thinking anything at the time (for the best part of a year, which I find impossible to believe). He successfully compartmentalised his life.

He did recognise that there were issues to do with his childhood (his father's affair, both his parent's inability to express any emotion, his desire to please his mum and his protective feelings towards her) that colour his emotional responses today. He does not really like men at all, and idealises women. Most of his friends have been women throughout his life, and some of those friendships have become relationships. My relationship with him started as a very close friendship of four years, before it became anything else.

We are probably both not good at expressing feelings - him, because he doesn't really feel them in a way that is clear enough for him to articulate, and me because I like a 'low drama' kind of relationship. Before this relationship (which is 20 years old) I was in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship that had enough drama to last me the rest of my life. I think we both like to sweep things under the carpet, given half a chance.

In a way, the affair at least prompted us to talk about what we loved about each other (as per the first couple of chapters of Glass's book), and I liked that. Turned out that we both really respect each other intellectually - which is great, but not the thing that true romance is made of! We have never 'done' romance.

I wanted to stop going to Relate as I was finding it frustrating to go over the same things, get upset every week, and still not feel I (or he) was getting any closer to what was going on in his head.

The Relate counsellor asked how he felt about the sadness and upset etc I was going through - he felt 'bad'.

As to the affair, how it started and ended -my partner saw himself as a bit of a leader amongst the people that were on the course he was on (his new interest involved a course that qualifies the participants to go into a particular business). He says nothing happened during the course, which ended in Feb 09, but when the course finished he and the other course members met up socially (and for business networking) and he garvitated towads this particular woman because they shared the same views on their interest, and thought each other were good at it. They got together monthly for group meetups, stayed on together when the rest had gone home, drank a lot of alcohol, and kissed in alleyways. Seedy. After a few months they also made arrangements to see each other separately on a few occassions. I found out about it because I had seen lots of emails between them (I have access to his emails) which were not incriminating in themselves, but just seemed to be frequent and friendly. Then I saw one in which she said she would rather see him alone, rather than with the rest of the group, at Xmas. It still didn't click imediately with me that this was an affair - I thought she was a friend, and that maybe he had failed to ensure that he wasn't leading her on to think it was something more. But it was already something more. I confronted him, and he told me all the story. He phoned her the next day and broke all contact. She has texted him a few times since, and he has told me and not replied. I feel fairly sure that he is truthful about this.

I believe that he intends never to do this again, but I'm not sure he is capable of spotting when he is in danger of doing so. But mainly, I'm not sure I can get over the hurt of him falling in love with another woman, when I was at home loving him, and worrying about his depression, drinking and failing business (he had other work he should have been doing while he was gallavanting around town pretending he was 'king of the castle').

Again, I typed for ages while you posted, WWIFN! What you say about having a low tolerance for faults that led to the affair is so insightful. I have been really unhappy since we went out two weeks ago, and he got very drunk. I associate him being very drunk with his 'couldn't care less' attitude during the affair, and with him getting off with the OW (as he says that he thinks he wanted to continue that relationship at the time because she gave him permission to get drunk, while I was trying to help him stop drinking as per his psychiatrist's advice). I will share that insight with him, because I couldn't understand why I reacted so strongly to it at the time, and have hated him since.

Thank you, Countingto10 and WWIFN, for spending time talking to me. I should like to continue, as your thoughts have been so helpful. I am away to make tea for my brood now, but will post again later and hope you (and others who wish to) may check in on me again? I feel that we are in a bit of a make or break time at the moment.

Hi Ange8. I have been reading your thread with interest as I am just 3 weeks after discovery. I'm sorry for what you are going through. I have been reading as I am hoping that the insight you and WWIFN are giving will help me in the future. It will certainly be handy to know that I may hit a wall at some point! My situation is different to yours in that my H only met the OW once, she got his number and started texting but they never met again. However, they did text for about 6 weeks and did get quite intimate.

I don't want to hijack your thread ange8, but I would quite like to give WWIFN a little update as I found her very hopeful when I posted at the time. Do you mind?

Pbgirl - certainly don't mind! Post away. I have drawn so much from these boards over the last year, and value your experience. Don't think I was up to posting at the 3 week mark, so well done at being so strong. Will speak later.

Hi WWIFN. I just wanted to say thank you for your support when I needed it recently. We have done loads of talking and lots of crying, we are both desperate to make it work again and my H is being very patient - he is prepared to wait for as long as it takes. He has talked a lot about his feelings and every time I have little bit of a wobble I tell him about it and we talk it through - even if we have already talked about the same thing ten times already. He accepts full responsibility, although now he says he feels like he was 'ill'. He is relieved that I know all about it and that we can talk about it. We have been very close physically too. I am finding it hard this week as he is away, not because I don't trust him but because I can't vent out at him when I want to, my imagination (about what happened) runs away with me and it all builds up. He is phoning often which helps but because of the nature of his work I cannot just call him whenever I want to. The book you recommended has been dispatched today so should be here soon and he is happy to read through it with me. My difficulty is my imagination. I am constantly remembering back to the time of his affair and working out where he was and what he was doing at the times of the messaging (I know when every message was sent because of the bill), and even worse - what was I doing at the time? Will this ever become less important to me? I do believe that he became addicted to the flattery and that is why he kept going back for more. Every time I send him a message this week and I'm constantly checking my phone as I await his reply so I can sort of understand it, don't get me wrong I know there is a huge difference between me texting my husband and him texting another woman but the obsession is still there. Anyway, as I said, I don't want to hijack ange8's thread so I will go and dunk my children in the bath. Thanks again and best of luck to ange8.

Thanks ange8. I am reluctant to start my own thread (I did at the time) because I got a lot of negative replies that I didn't want so I eventually got it deleted! However, WWIFN was invaluable. I really must run the bath now but I will check in later. Thanks.

ange8 - me and DP are also 10 months after discovery or should I say since he told me.

We are on about session 15 of counselling I think and things are ok but I know I have a long way to go.

Low tolerance is present here sometimes too. Especially when I remember certain things like us being to skint to do certain things but him going to see her or me staying home doing housework when he went to see her.

I should probably mention he had an affair with a female friend of his and he has lost/given up friends because of it and no longer socialises in those circles.

I too was at home worrying about DPs issues and about said friend because she was going through a hard time and I thought I was being a good friend in letting my DP go see her and support her.

I think as women we naturally worry and do things as part of 'caring' for our partners which we don't even think about but when our trust is broken it hurts.

Keep posting - I have to go now but will come back later x

Ange8, it's interesting what you said about your H's drinking and the OW "allowing" it. There are so many issues around addictions (not saying your H's is an alcoholic but you mention the drinking as a problem). My DH's had an issue with gambling and the OW was linked to that scene so whilst I was trying to prevent it, she was "allowing" it, involved with it so obviously the more attractive proposition with all the flattery and positive mirroring etc as well.

It sounds (reading between the lines) that you were trying to control your H's drinking, do you think there might be co-dependancy issues as well (try Co-dependent No More by Melodie Beatty). It was pointed out during counselling that I was very co-dependent and therefore "controlling". Just a thought.

I was thinking about the last time I felt joy, as WWIFN mentioned. I really can't recall feeling that way for the past 6 years at least - since he has been depressed. Since then, I have been responsible for initiating any activity, visiting family, even having a relationship on behalf of both of us with the kids. I have listened to his thoughts of suicide and his worries about work. I probably became depressed myself.

Before the affair, I saw these as our joint problems, that were causing me unhappiness, but it never occurred to me to get rid of him to make myself happy.

The OW didn't even know about his depression. But I don't now feel comforted to know that he appears to have been using her as a form of self-medication, to make him feel good about himself when the rest of his life was crumbling. Instead, I feel that once again I am the one who will need to nurse and coax him to confront his issues - and I can't do that and feel any self respect, as I am not prepared to be the one who, yet again, has to do the 'parenting'.

I suppose I wonder whether, if he can't do this himself, he'll have to cope alone.

AuntieMaggie - do you think the work you are doing in counselling is helping with the hurt you felt? I'm not sure if there is more I can do on that front by talking, or whether I will just have to wait and see if it fades.

Countingto10 - your comment about co-dependency may be spot on. I don't really understand what it means, but came across the concept when reading something else, and wondered if it might apply to me. I will read the book you recommended. I have had, as I alluded to earlier, some previous relationship problems so I know I need to work on myself. Ironically, my partner appears to think I am perfect and none of this is ky fault. Again, not very helpful.

Your H sounds very much like mine who hit the self-destruct button. He likened it to putting his hand into a flame, knew it was going to hurt but was inexplicably drawn to it if it makes sense. It's the depression and then they get off on the ego boost the OW gives them, it makes them feel again.

We both had issues with our pasts and our marriage/lives were very stressful, 4DSs (2 with ASD), running his own practice, severe financial worries (made even worse by the gambling - self destruction). The more DH was required to "step up to the plate" the more he tried to run away/avoid in every way possible and I was there trying to control everything/keep on top of things (co-dependency - trying to control what you can't control).

Part of the recovery from the affair is me discovering "me" again hence the horseriding (doing something I enjoyed from my childhood - it's in the co-dependency book). The more I backed off from trying to control the more he took responsibility or it could have been the other way round )

My DH still struggles with himself at times. Since the affair he has been throwing his all into the business and has completely turned it around - "The harder I work the luckier I get" - but when he lets up he doesn't know what to do with himself IYSWIM. He struggles with being him and those issues go way back into his childhood. I feel he could probably do with some pyscho-analysis but that's for him to decide.

The shared understanding of my DH's affair is complex and there are many different reasons for it but the bottom line is I love him very much and we have 4 wonderful sons.

PB Thanks for the update. I was sorry to see your thread had been pulled, mainly because you can no longer refer to the advice written on there. I sort of hoped you'd cut and pasted what you needed.

The re-constructing you are doing with the phone bills is absolutely normal. I did the same. When you get the book, you will see a reference to this too; the compulsive need to timeline everything and re-frame that period of your life when you were unsighted and being deceived. It proved really helpful to me, because I was able to cross-match phone activity with what we were doing as a family or couple on certain days. For you, it has also been a blessing, because you were at least able to verify that contact had waned considerably before discovery.

It's tough being on your own at the moment and I do understand. Whereas you would normally be talking things through and able to share your fears on a daily basis, you can't do that.

When you've read the book, you might want to start another thread to check your understanding and share your thoughts about its message. You can post brief details of the affair, but I will remember your name and look out for you.

I often think about when I first posted on Mumsnet and I'm not sure I could have coped with a lot of "bin him" messages, even though I expected them, tbh. In the event, I just got lots of supportive comments from people who had been through it and will be eternally grateful to one poster in particular who was able to give me a different perspective on why my H had not ended his affair more brutally.

You see, like your situation, my H had refused to see the OW again, the very night I'd discovered texts on an old phone. He came home that night feeling joyful that he'd finally done the right thing, only to find that his world had just fallen apart with my discovery.

It seemed to me from your thread that your H was doing all the right things post-discovery - and was also telling the truth about what had happened. It helped that you were able to verify his story - and of course the OW backed this up, didn't she?

So in your case, I felt there was genuine hope. I don't always, as you may have noticed! If I get any sense of someone being lied to, or being blamed in any way, I am pretty robust in criticising the unfaithful partner.

Happy to offer ongoing help and thanks for the update.

ange8 I hope to post more on your thread tomorrow, as I need to reflect on what you've written. I have a feeling that Counting might be the best person to help you here, because of the issues about depression and addiction. However, I'll mull it all over and post tomorrow. Hope that posting has helped you today and that you are getting some comfort and insights from your thread.

Hi WWIFN, thanks for your post. I did feel bad about having the thread deleted but it was very early days and I wasn't prepared for the 'It won't be the first time and it won't be the last' kind of comments. I was also quite criticised for being in awe of him etc.. and I found it hard to take. I know he had done a terrible thing but it didn't mean that I had stopped loving him. The OW did pretty much confirm what he had said. She said she had initiated it and she thought that he was only responding to 'be polite' - obviously that is rubbish as you don't get into that sort of thing out of politeness! It did however confirm that she had started it all. I have given him lots of opportunity to disclose any other details he thinks I should know and he says there is nothing else. He seems to understand that I cannot move forward until I know exactly what I am dealing with and that if I do start coming to terms with it and I later discover that he is still lying it will probably destroy what we have. On a good day I think that maybe this is a blessing - we came very close to losing each other and it has made us both realise that neither of us would ever want to be apart and that we should appreciate each other more. Even though I felt we had a good relationship I do feel that perhaps after 14 years we maybe took each other for granted a bit - the 'you don't know what you've got till it's (nearly) gone theory I suppose. The other thing that I am surprised at is the physical side of our relationship. In the first few days I couldn't even bear to undress in front of him and I locked the door when in the bath etc.. I thought it would be months or maybe years before I could bring my self to make love again. However, we have probably had more sex in the last two weeks than we normally do in two months! (sorry for the gory details.) Why is this? It has been very passionate and sometimes very emotional where we have both just cried all the way through - I can't believe I'm writing this but I'm guessing that you might have an explanation??

It's a long road there's no doubt about that.

There's only so much talking about how much he's hurt you that you can do, that's true. Only a couple of our counselling sessions have concentrated on that the others have concentrated on our relationship, our differences etc. But my DP sounds different to yours in that he was very open in telling the counsellor how much he'd hurt me and how much he regretted it. What was eye opening for me was to hear him tell the whole story to a third party from his point of view. He has also said on more than one occasion that it was him being selfish and immature and that it wasn't my fault he did what he did.

Where counselling may help is to get you to concentrate on your relationship and find out if you really want to be together or not. Unfortunately the hurt is something that we have to deal with.

Both WWIFN and Counting were a great support when my DP confessed (6 months after the fact). There were many people here who said to ditch him which isn't helpful because it's not as black and white as that.

My DP has suffered with depression (as have I) and has been through self destruct phases too - this was one of them. Like you and counting the OW gave him 'permission' to do the things that I would try to help him with - spending too much money on material things, drinking, eating rubbish, etc. He thought she was a friend to him and he had known her since school but he realised for himself that actually she was never a true friend to him and ended contact with her and the other friends in that circle willingly. In fact I had little to do with it. And what counting says about when her DH had to "step up to the plate" is true for my DP too. Everytime I tried to get him to do that he would turn it into a negative thing that would validate his reasons for looking elsewhere.

As for validating stuff - that never goes away. You may forget something he said or did at the time but remember later and need to ask him if that was linked to the affair. Just yesterday I was clearing out my emails and found an email from DP telling me he was going somwhere which I now know was when he was going to see her.

My DP was always honest with me - brutally so. When I asked him if he'd ever lied to me about where he was going he said of course he did he was having an affair and lying was part of that.

One of the main things that has come out of our counselling though is boundaries in terms of opposite sex relationships. My DP has another female friend who he would never do anything with (and I believe him) but he has quite a bit of contact with her which because of his history makes me uncomfortable. Counselling has helped us realise that it's important to understand what each others boundaries are for things like this and what we see as acceptable. And its different for different couples as well as different people. For example I see no problem with DP going to a strip club whereas I know several of my friends wouldn't let their partners. However I do have a problem with him texting a woman late at night, regardless of how innocent it is.

Anyway I realise I'm waffling. I hope this thread is helping you.

Some people say that relationships shouldn't be this hard, but then I think some of us are complex and have complicated personalities because of the lives we've lived. And at the end of the day I'm hoping that we can come out of this with a relationship that is stronger and better than ever, and if we're happy together for the next 40 years and nothing like this happens again then it'll be worth it. But if it doesnt work out at least we've tried.

PBGirl - your experience of lots of sex is, I think, quite common. It's 'hysterical bonding', and happened to us too. I think we were clinging together like survivors on the last lifeboat. The intense talking and emotional intimacy of the first weeks after discovery is very tiring, I found, and although sex can also be tiring, it was a way of staying really close without the constant debate. I felt as though we were having our wounds licked.

As WWIFN says, the need to have a timeline is overwhelming. I traced every call and text from his mobile, every cash machine withdrawal, every email, for the whole period of his affair. I then did the same for me, trying to work out exactly what I was doing when he was with her, and what had been going on in our lives. I sat down with him with the timeline, and he told me the 'story' of the affair - it helped to jog his memory about what various texts and calls might have been about.

So sorry you are going though this.

That's a great explanation ange about clinging together like survivors, that's just how if feels. The thing is, if I've ever had any worries he is the one I talk to (which I guess is the same for all couples) but it was strange that even though he was the cause of all my upset he was still the one to comfort me and me him.

I agree that the timeline is overwhelming. I was looking at some photos the other day and very quickly linked them to the few days where he sent the most messages. His affair (albeit just by text) basically lasted for the whole of the summer holidays which is hard to take. It's hard to believe that these thoughts will ever fade but I am determined to make it work.

I am struggling with my self-esteem a bit. In my original thread I went on about how clever and talented my H is (I was criticised quite strongly for this!) but by the nature of it, it means that he mixes in circles with others who share his talents. It's things I have a go at too but am really pretty rubbish at (I'm talking sport) and I find it hard to think about him doing this sport with other talented women when I really struggle. He is always really supportive of my efforts and never belittles me for it but for me I suppose it makes me feel inadequate. Sorry, that's a bit of a ramble.

WWIFN, Countingto10, AuntieMaggie - I am overwhelmed with your kindness and generosity in spending time thinking about and responding to my posts. I am grateful for your comments, and they helped me to have a good discussion with my partner last night.

We did, in the months after discovery, come to some understanding about what led up to the affair. My partner had, for the first time in our long relationship, become the sole breadwinner and, although he had encouraged that turn of events and kept assuring me that he was happy with it, he realises he felt daunted because he was starting to struggle with his own work.

Instead of talking to me about that, he kept up the pretence of himself as a high-achiever. I could see that his business was struggling as he was just not doing the work (he worked for himself as a business consultant) so took on some self-employed work of my own. But far from taking some pressure off him, this just seemed to make him more detached from me as he could see I would cope without him.

We also had problems with the behaviour of one of our teenage kids, and he felt as though he didn?t know how to relate to them any more. So he left that task to me.

By the time the affair started, he says that he felt that he was simply not needed by me or the kids, and we?d actually be better off without him. He started to think of suicide very regularly.

At the same time as having such an apparently low opinion of himself, he also likes to be seen as a successful high achiever. His new interest gave him the opportunity to shine in the eyes of people who had just met him, and he put lots of effort into impressing them with his skills.

The OW was one of the people on the course who thought he was good at what he did, and he thought she was too. There was a conflict between him and another wannabe alpha male on the course, and my partner managed to gather a group around him that thought he was in the right, and the other man was wrong. I feel that the OW was my partner?s cheerleader in this situation, and he enjoyed getting one over on the other guy and cultivating a group of fans.

Meanwhile, at home, he was telling me about the rows and I thought the other guy had a perfect right to his actions and that my partner should focus on building a business out of his new interest, rather than trying to create a cabal of people who agreed with him, to no commercial end.

We have talked about boundaries with same-sex friendships, and my partner replies that he intends to be alert to them and thinks that all friends should now be joint friends of us as a couple. Sounds ok in theory, but I am wary of trying to make friends together as I know my partner, in company, will bang on about something of interest to him without really noticing that others are glazing over, and drive people away. He also finds it difficult to show polite interest in others when he doesn?t really feel it. If only he hadn?t started a relationship with one of the members of his course, I would have been happy for him to go out with them once a month or so and bore each other about the finer details of their interest!

I am starting to think that more counselling, for us as individuals, might be helpful. Trouble is, we have no spare money, and will soon not be able to pay the mortgage. I explained to my partner last night that I was still feeling very confused about whether we should stay together or split, and that my gut feeling was that I wanted us to stay together but that would only work if we could deal with these issues.

And to deal with the issues, I think I need to see more from him than he has given ? although that has already been a lot, and I know it has been a big effort for him to try to overcome his depression, find a new job, stop drinking so much and participate in family things. I still want him to consider why he feels the need to be seen as top-dog, why he needs such flattery, and why he gravitates towards women?s friendship and cannot maintain friendships with men. All the promises about respecting boundaries in future seem a bit hollow if he might repeat exactly the same pattern of behaviour that led to him deciding to ignore the boundaries that he knew where there last time he trampled over them.

In the meantime, I will need to think about the co-dependency issue, and am going out today to buy the book Countingto10 recommended. I am finding it impossible to figure out if I do (as I think I do) really love my partner and want to stay with him because of that, or whether this is some kind of misplaced loyalty and belief that, if I could only ?fix? him, we could be happy together. There?s a lot for me to think about.