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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

10 months after discovery of his affair - still don't know what I want

38 replies

ange8 · 15/09/2010 15:45

I found out last November that my partner had been having an affair for nearly a year - mainly of the 'emotional' kind, plus kissing, but no sex. He was relieved that I had discovered it, ended it immediately, said he was ashamed and sorry and wanted us to stay together and he would work hard to be a better partner. We have two teenage children.

We worked through Shirley Glass's book, 'Not just friends', and did a lot of talking. Also went to Relate for a few sessions in January/February this year. I went on anti-depressants, mainly to help with anxiety symptoms, and by March I was feeling like we might be able to get over this and I could be happy.

Then, I came off the ADs because I didn't like the side effects, and frankly I also wanted to feel my feelings - was worried that I was turning into a Stepford Wife who could smile through all the pain because I was drugged up.

But now, I do feel my feelings. And they are not good. I am obsessed with the other woman, have a very low opinion of myself, feel constantly angry, and feel quite hostile to my partner. The hostility rises up at odd times, so we might have been having a nice time together, then something makes me hate him all of a sudden.

We haven't really continued talking after we stopped going to Relate, and so I initiated a discussion last weekend. Even the way he approached the discussion made me upset - wanted to make notes, have an agenda... I know these things aren't bad, but I just wish he had some genuine emotions that he could just express. I am starting to think that he has no emotional life, and so I will always be waiting for something I can't have (expressions of true intimacy).

I think, for my own self esteem, I need to tell him to leave. But I have been trying to avoid that as I have recently become unemployed and we have a large mortgage, so I couldn't keep the house on my own and I don't want to disrupt the kids by moving into a smaller rented house if I can help it.

Sorry - I don't know what it is I am asking, as part of this is a practical problem about what help I might get if I was an unemployed single parent in a house with a large joint mortgage, and the other is an emotional mess, really about how can I be sure about what I want to do (should he stay or should he go!)He really wants us to stay together, and I love him deeply, but don't think I'm the forgiving kind.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts about how you decided whether or not to stay together after an affair (when you both wanted to, but were finding it difficult).

OP posts:
PBGirl · 16/09/2010 14:38

Thanks for letting me butt in Ange, I'm sorry I can't offer you any advice - maybe this time next year I will be able to help somebody else! Best of luck for the future, I hope it all works out for you. I will keep my eye out for you on here. x

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/09/2010 15:11

Ange8 your further post today gives me so much more insight into what happened here.

I will say upfront however that I have no experience of romantic relationships with adults with Aspergers, alcohol dependency or clinical depression.

I also think he's widely misinterpreted the message about friendships. It's perfectly fine to have separate friendships, as long as they are with people who wish the marriage no harm; people who are friends of the marriage, if not both partners. We all need separate identities and friendships.

However, I want to ask a few questions that might get you thinking and could generate more discussion.

How much do you think you've been enacting a controlling/nurturing parent role to his child?
How much do you think you seeing right through his motives for the cabal, will have been received by him as a parent telling him off, rather than what you and I might think, was a perfectly reasonable bit of honesty about this absurd playground behaviour?
How does he show his love towards his, yours or joint friends?
What do you notice in the way other men react to him? You say he has difficulty with male friendships. He might be deluding himself that this all comes from him and his preference for women, but there might be something about him that makes them recoil from him, too.
Interesting what you say about his domination of a conversation when it's a subject that's of interest to him and he can assume dominance - and not noticing the body language of others around him. How do you think he generally responds to atmosphere and the signals that people give?
How is he now at admitting his vulnerabilities to you - and others, especially men? Could you ever imagine him saying that he was bad at something he'd previously pretended to be good at?

And a horrendously difficult one to answer perhaps. How much of this affair was punitive? Is there anything rooted in jealousy of you, or to punish you for seeing right through him and his abilities; for knowing him so well?

ange8 · 16/09/2010 15:40

WWIFN - these are really good questions that are giving me a lot to think about. Once again, thank you for spending time with me on this. I will give them thought and post again tomorrow. Tonight, I am going out with my partner to see a play - he bought the tickets as a lovely surprise a week or so ago - one example of the efforts he is making to chnage his ways.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/09/2010 16:50

Just to catch up with the other contributors to this thread too:

PBGirl The physical relationship you describe is quite normal and happened to us too. Like so much about affairs, until it happens to you, you think you would behave one way and then everything seems to confound those beliefs. It does help too, in those nightmarish early weeks. My H's counsellor called it "re-claiming eachother". If it's any comfort, nothing has changed for us over 2 years on, so there's a lot to look forward to Wink.

AuntMaggie I have a worry about a couple of things in your post. I saw your thread about the high-volume texting with the female friend, long after it had died and slipped from view. I have to say I'm really uncomfortable about this, mainly because this behaviour was bound to cause you flashbacks and a level of distress - and flies in the face of setting boundaries.

Secondly, I note what you say about your views about strip clubs and "letting" your DP attend them. Does that mean that your DP sees nothing wrong with men attending strip clubs? How does that sit with his respect for women? And is your relationship still about what you will "allow" rather than what he decides is the right thing to do?

BaggyAgy · 16/09/2010 17:39

WWIFN please your insight please into men who have friendships only with women, but are incapable of friendships with men.

PBGirl · 16/09/2010 18:50

Thanks WWIFN, as I said, maybe a blessing in disguise - albeit a pretty nasty one. One thing that has caught my eye today on another thread is the men who haven't been able to say 'no' when it came to the crunch. My H assures me that he had already decided that he would not sleep with the OW even though they had talked about that sort of thing in their messages, he also says that he had told her that it would never happen. The thing is that work would have decided whether or not they met - he wouldn't have had any say in it (it's still a possibility too). I am now left wondering if he can honestly say that he wouldn't have let it happen or if he, like the other husbands, wouldn't have actually been able to say no. I am convinced that he believes he wouldn't have done anything but I guess we'll never really know how he would have reacted to her if she pushed him. Should I just be grateful that the opportunity never arose and move away from this thought?

PBGirl · 16/09/2010 18:51

I should have added in that second sentence that the men claim they didn't really want to go through with it but you probably know what I am talking about..

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 16/09/2010 21:40

You will never really know PBGirl - and neither will he. In your case, there is more supporting the belief that he would have pulled back if an opportunity arose, but unfortunately, most unfaithful parties caught out before there was the opportunity of a physical relationship, claim that they would never have gone through with it. More than most, delude themselves of that too.

I don't think you should stop questioning that, but don't torture yourself with it either. Broaden the discussions too - and point out that this time last year, he would have no doubt said that he would never have got involved in a sexting relationship at all. When in the midst of an addictive and intoxicating situation like this, I'm not sure if anybody can safely say they would have acted honourably, so I think the more truthful thing to say is that they hope they would have seen sense.

On the positive side, your H ended it with OW before discovery and you can prove that. So hopefully, what your H's belief about himself is true.

In the midst of every affair, is a set of coincidences of circumstance and timing. It is perhaps lucky for you both that opportunities were scarce, but try to think of this in terms of the future - and getting to a place whereby luck or opportunity doesn't come into it - you will both remain faithful, because you now know so much more about fidelity and everything you can do to affair-proof your marriage. Smile

AuntieMaggie · 17/09/2010 10:33

WWIFN - we have dealt with the high volume of texting thing in counselling. He no longer does it and now understands why it was such a problem for me. I brought it up in counselling as I felt he didn't really understand where I was coming from when I confronted him with it (we have communication issues which we are also working on) so to go back over it in a calm environment helped me to explain myself better and him then understand me better. I guess I still tiptoe around some subjects at home in case of upsetting things - that's not to say that I don't talk to him or we don't argue at home.

The strip club thing - he's been twice since we've been together - once on a trip to vegas and once on a trip to Amsterdam. It was just an example really. He wouldn't go to one on a normal saturday night, but if he's away with a group of lads he might go partly out of curiousity and partly because everyone else is. I've got friends who would go mad if they knew their partners were in the same room as a stripper, even if it was at a party where someone else had ordered it and they had no way of knowing they would be there.

I don't think he has any issues with respect for women, infact like ange's partner he finds it easier to have relationships with women than men, that's not to say he doesn't have male friends. It's got a lot to do with being brought up and being around lots of female family members when he was growing up. He was also bullied quite a bit in school, so with females there wasn't the need to be something he wasn't IYSWIM.

He does what he wants most of the time. I don't not allow him to do anything. Not that he wants to do a lot at the moment. Since losing his friends over the affair he rarely goes anywhere.

ange8 · 17/09/2010 11:33

WWIFN The questions posed in your post yesterday seem to me to be very relevant to my situation, but some are very difficult to answer. They involve me thinking in depth about my partner?s behaviour outside of our relationship, which gives me a new angle on this and so I have an instinctive feeling that it will be worthwhile to do so. My own thinking has become very circular.

How much do you think you've been enacting a controlling/nurturing parent role to his child? I feel that I have been acting as ?parent? to his ?child? for a long time, in lots of aspects of our lives. Some of it controlling, but I had hoped mostly nurturing. I think he has also played up to the child role. For example, while he is (normally) very competent in his work life and likes to be seen as an achiever, at home he takes on a ?little boy lost? character ? so, I run the family finances and look after DIY, for example. The kids joke that its not worth asking their dad for a decision on anything, as he will always want to defer the decision to me. He doesn?t discipline them ? well, actually I tell a lie ? he started to try to discipline our daughter who was acting badly in the months before the affair, but did so in a very ?Victorian father? kind of way, shouting at her and telling her to get her act together. He also spoke very nastily to our other daughter around the same time, which was out of character for him. I was shocked with the way he spoke to the kids, and am ashamed to say that I broke our role of not disagreeing in front of the kids about how we disciplined them. I could not condone the way he spoke to them, and made no secret of that. So, I guess I undermined his attempt at parenting in a controlling way.

How much do you think you seeing right through his motives for the cabal, will have been received by him as a parent telling him off, rather than what you and I might think, was a perfectly reasonable bit of honesty about this absurd playground behaviour? I tried to approach this problem he had with his new colleagues as if I was a management consultant myself ? talking to him about the issues, discussing options for dealing with them, challenging some of the fixed ideas that he had, and discussing possible ways to build his business. The kissing part of the affair started just as the course ended, so a bit before the issues came to a head with this other man in the group. But certainly I think the development of this antagonism between the two men helped to cement the relationship between my partner and the OW. I know the issue was an all-consuming one for my partner, who took great delight at any misfortune to befall the other guy, and so did many of the rest of the group who felt wronged by him. Most of the options for working without this other guy involved explicitly deciding who, out of the people on the course, my partner now wanted to go into business with. It seemed to becoming increasingly clear that going into business with any of them was going to be problematic, but he didn?t want to give up on the attempts to work together. Looking back, I think he felt that my attempts to look at the practicalities of the different working options exposed his emotional connections with the OW. At one time, I remember saying that I could not really understand why he was still pursuing a particular option for everyone working together, as it had caused him such problems and seemed unlikely to be commercially successful. I said it seemed to me, as an observer, that his desire to remain linked to the other course members seemed to be more emotional, than based on commercial considerations. He didn?t respond to that. I thought he had genuinely made friends on the course that he was reluctant to accept may not be great business partners. Now, I think he thought he was in danger of having his toy taken away.

How does he show his love towards his, yours or joint friends? This is a hard one. He hasn?t really had any good friends for the last twelve years. I have very few friends as well. It hasn?t always been like that, but certainly since the kids were toddlers we have become very insular together, I think mainly because of issues around him and various female friends he had in the first few years of our relationship, which became more than ?just friends?. He (and I) thought that these were problems with him being quite young, in the early stages of our relationship and adjusting to having had two children close together (not accidentally, both planned!) But the upshot was that I think he knew that I would have problems with him developing a close friendship with another woman, so he didn?t, until this course came along. The friends he has developed in the past twelve years have been more like acquaintances ? work colleagues, both male and female, that he meets maybe once a year for a coffee at lunchtime, to catch up on their professional lives. He keeps up his link with them by occasionally emailing them something that he thinks will be interesting. I don?t think he has anyone that he talks to about his personal life, and he claims he did not even talk to the OW about that.

What do you notice in the way other men react to him? You say he has difficulty with male friendships. He might be deluding himself that this all comes from him and his preference for women, but there might be something about him that makes them recoil from him, too. Actually when you put it like that, I realise that it might be me that is deluding both of us! I was the one who pointed out to him that he seemed more comfortable seeking friendships with women ? and I think this because had a string of close friendships with women early in our relationship and before that ?accidentally? developed into something else, and which I am not comfortable with. I had hoped that he would form male friendships, but they never really progressed and he says that he doesn?t feel the need for friends. He had a couple of close male friends when I started having a relationship with him, but they both fell away due mainly to changes in circumstances and he didn?t put in the effort to maintain them. From observing the way that male acquaintances and family members react to him, I would say that men who don?t see themselves as ?macho? get on with him well (and both close friends that I mentioned were not macho, but sweet and lovely), men who want to be top dog in a situation immediately seem to sense that he will be a competitor, and men who are just naturally top dogs but are also confident in their strengths don?t feel challenged by him at all (and he looks up to these men and treats them with respect and loyalty). Actually, one of the qualities I loved about him when I met him was that he hated macho posturing and sexism, so maybe I have got exactly what I wished for.

How do you think he generally responds to atmosphere and the signals that people give? I think he generally misses them. Or, he might notice them but not want to do anything about it. He gets ?on a roll?. I, and the close male friends I mentioned before, treat this as just a time when he gets carried away being passionate about something. But others might see it as arrogant, and he misses the signs that they are looking at him with hostility. Or, he might be explaining something in great detail and complexity to the kids, and they don?t want to know or it?s too high-level for them. He doesn?t sense that they have stopped asking questions, or the look of confusion on their faces. If I?m there, I sometimes ?translate?, and I think then he realises that his monologue didn?t hit the mark. Oh dear, looks like I did the controlling parent/emasculation again.

How is he now at admitting his vulnerabilities to you - and others, especially men? Could you ever imagine him saying that he was bad at something he'd previously pretended to be good at? Usually, I think he is pretty good at admitting his vulnerabilities to me. As I mentioned before, he does play helpless/clueless quite often as home. Less good at admitting vulnerabilities to the outside world, to the extent that he would take on tasks that he dreads to show his capabilities. Having said that, I have been pleased that he has taken some steps in his new job (which he has had for 6 months now) to tell his boss (male) that he has struggled with a couple of things. These are definitely things that, in previous jobs, he would have suffered in silence rather than asking for help, and make himself ill in the process. Actually, I?m feeling rather proud of him for this. He has also talked to me in a grown-up way, rather than a helpless child way, about the difficulties he faces relating to the kids. So, yes, I do feel he has made some real progress, and this has just given me some hope about how things might change in future.

How much of this affair was punitive? Is there anything rooted in jealousy of you, or to punish you for seeing right through him and his abilities; for knowing him so well? I don?t honestly feel that the affair was punitive towards me ? if anything, it was more like self-flagellation for him (I know I?m crap, and here?s proof). But I think you have something in it maybe being a reaction to me knowing him so well. Who wants to feel so ?see through?? I don?t blame him wanting a personal and private life that he doesn?t share every single minute of with me. I don?t blame him for wanting a friend of his own. I think, now, that he did need a bit of his world that wasn?t dominated by me ? but how to get it?

My goodness ? this is so long! It is proving to be a real eye opener for me to try to see things from his perspective. My worry is that maybe I am still projecting onto him my own thoughts about what he feels and what motivates him, rather than hearing it from him. So, maybe I am still fooling myself that I know him, when it turns out that I really don?t.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 17/09/2010 15:12

ange8 Lots to ponder on in your post. One of the things you might find helpful is to ask him these questions yourself, asking him what he thinks?

Given his (former?) profession, he may well have come across the concept of Transactional Analysis, which discusses the games people play in relationships and the roles they enact. It also looks at the three ego states from which we operate, parent, child and adult.

What often happens in romantic relationships is that somewhere along the line, one of the protagonists starts to operate from a parental ego state and the other, from a child's perspective. It is a pernicious dynamic in an adult romantic relationship, taints sexual intimacy and the relationship suffers greatly when true parenting needs emerge; i.e the DCs' needs.

The parental ego state can be alternately nurturing and controlling, but whereas nurturing will achieve a "little boy, lost and clueless" response - and the controlling an "I will do this and you can't stop me", defiant response, neither has a place in an adult romantic relationship.

It's interesting to see that you've noticed more adult-adult exchanges. And there is a world of difference between what I've described above - and a relationship where both adults nurture the other equally, or where circumstances such as bereavements or disappointments cause us to be child-like and our partner soothes our hurt; a temporary imbalance.

I don't think you should remonstrate with yourself for protecting your DCs from being treated badly by an adult. This is in fact an appropriate parental reaction and it is clear that whereas you would have normally kept a united front and displayed collective responsibility, you had to depart from that when the person with most need (your child) warranted protection. How your H perceived that is another matter - in his child-like state, he may have perceived it as being "told off" and because he may have been frustrated with himself by his own parenting deficiencies, it was easier to blame you, just as a child will deflect blame in every direction but inwards.

Isn't language fascinating? You describe your commendable efforts to focus his networking activity on commercial success, being met with resistance, because it would mean the loss of his "toy" - a child-like image again. As is creating a cabal, instead of the more adult response which would have involved him achieving a win-win solution to the fracturing relationship with the other man.

This begs a further question. How is he at confronting difficult situations with other adults?

With regard to friendships, this is very interesting. You imply that he has previously allowed friendships with females to cross the line, albeit earlier in your relationship. Can you explain more?

And why do you think you haven't nurtured female friendship yourself?

I noted on another thread you being an introvert on the MBTI assessment, but of course that literally means that you don't have as much need of people, than someone on the "E" scale. What is your H?

Lots of men, especially those who lack emotional intelligence, profess that they "don't need friends" - and consequently the relationships they form with other men are wholly superficial, with no discussions at all about their personal lives or their insecurities. Your H might have the appearance of a reconstructed, non-sexist man who eschews macho posturing, but one of the most significant benefits he could make to his life would be to form some close male friendships with emotionally intelligent males.

It is absolutely no coincidence that your H is able to form closer relationships with women and despite his abstinence over the years in this regard, that is his natural instinct. He perhaps doesn't regard women as competitors (they have no cocks to wave!) and so his guard drops and he can express his feelings and vulnerabilities.

The man with few or no close male friends is particularly vulnerable to a blurred friendship with another woman, because he is unused to expressing emotions and feelings and these now have an outlet. I note he says he didn't discuss such things with the OW, but I'd be very surprised if he wasn't playing something of a role in this relationship, that allowed him to like himself more.

Affairs are very often about mirroring. They allow people to enact roles that they never have - and they play up to the impression created. It might be worth hearing about the role he was playing with the OW - the high-achiever, the emotionally literate man, the romantic etc.? One of the best questions in the Shirley Glass book is "What did you like about yourself, in the relationship?"
The challenge then is to bring the truthful, honest bits, back into the primary relationship. Your relationship sounds very practical and romance doesn't seem to have loomed large, but now that looks to be changing with your date last night. That's all for the good.

His inability to pick up on atmospheres and signals is fascinating - and again suggests someone who needs to develop their emotional intelligence. What does he say about this? Has anyone else given him that feedback? You might want to think about situations in your past when he has completely misread a situation and has been shocked with the result. Or when he has thought someone liked him - and when you have seen him in that person's company, you have sensed wariness or dislike.

What I can't help with here is how much some of this might have to do with ASD - and that will need some clinical guidance.

It's great that you can chart and celebrate progress with his willingness to admit vulnerability to the outside world, especially to his manager. When he can do this with someone he feels in competition with, that will be even more progress. I wonder how he might approach the relationship with the male course delegate now?

I also wonder whether you can talk to him about how some affairs are punitive in motive? I accept what you say about the self-harming aspects of it, but this might be worthy of more discussion between you and more reflection. I notice for example that he had recently become the sole breadwinner - sometimes the insecurity associated with that, causes blame and a desire to punish. There might also be issues about the mother-child relationship I referred to earlier, since so many emotionally unintelligent males have mother-punishment motives.

There is an unfortunate stereotype of the emotionally unintelligent male; either neanderthal in appearance, nature and general intelligence, or an alpha type who is hugely successful, but ruthless.

Your H confounds both of these stereotypes by the sounds of things, but I am pretty convinced that he would score very low on any EI test - and exploring this, along with achieving an adult-adult romantic relationship, closer male friendships and all the other post-affair progress you have made, might just be the key.

This is also all about him and there is much more we can discuss about you and your aspirations. I'm happy to help.

ange8 · 17/09/2010 15:48

WWIFN I may be confused about my relationship with my partner, but I'm pretty sure I love you! I feel very lucky to be able to share in your wisdom, and that you have spent such time with me on this. You certainly increase the amount of happiness in the world (in this and many other threads that I have read avidly over the past year)and, though I may not be able to offer much to you personally in return, I do try to offer something back to the world by doing voluntary work. I've taken on an extra day next week, in thanks for your help and support.

Your last post has given me some ideas of much more helpful things to talk to my partner about this weekend, and to think about more myself, and I already feel more hopeful that I can break out of the depressing and destructive cycle I was in, of continually asking myself (and occasionally asking him) questions that neither of us felt able to answer.

I am interested in the TA angle, and have ordered 'TA Today : A New Introduction to Transactional Analysis' by Ian Stewart from Amazon.

I will talk to my partner about some of these ideas, and suggest some reading for him. I know he thinks that he is not emotionally intelligent, and furthermore that he would not be able to engage in self-analysis because it is beyond his capabilities. He asked his GP for a referral to a psychologist, as part of his recent efforts to 'get better' from his depression, but is on a long waiting list. The CBT waiting list was shorter, but he has tried this in the past and just couldn't engage with it.

I know there are some questions for me to address about my own behaviour too, and I am eager to do so, because when it comes down to it I have not been really happy for years, and I want to be.

Many thanks, and I will post again next week - but please don't feel you, WWIFN, have to reply - I won't feel abandoned! I know you must have a busy life to live.

OP posts:
ange8 · 17/09/2010 16:01

By the way, I'm INTJ, he's INTP - described somewhere else as being 'ideal companions, because neither of them notices they're in a relationship'. Hmmm - maybe I'll stick to the TA theory instead and not mix my personality profiles!

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