Please can anyone share or talk to me about 'alternative' relationships ?

[mymuchness]

OK deep breath - I'd really like to know about alternative relationships and how it works both practically and emtionally, what the pros and cons are etc.

I just feel that marriage is so confining and also that oddly I wouldnt mind if my husband was with other women if he could learn from those experiences iyswim?

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts?

Yes, but you assume that when people talk they are a) being honest ( not only with others but with themselves) and b) that feelings don't and won't change

Of couse 1:1 doesn't always work- who said it did?

But if you put another person, or more than that into the mix, the odds on everyone being happy seem to be far less.

And BTW I am not hung up on monogamy as the only way to live. I do however think that what people say they want, adn then do when it happens are often two very different things.

I think my husband hit the nail on the head after he read this post and said "the thing is you cant just suggest polyamory to someone who isnt already of the same outlook. They'd most likely agree to it for the wrong reasons which could cause difficulties". Its a conundrum really because you cant help who you like and I dont want to restrict myself to friends who are only polyamourous (?) that would defeat the purpose in many ways.
SGB seems to have the key perspective in that holding up monogomy as the 'best' type of relationship is damaging and offering alternatives in a straight forward and accepting way would be a positive step for society.

Purplepeony: But I know people in longterm non-monogamous relationships. This is not just vague theorizing on my part. I'm not saying they are all blissfully,perfectly, endlessly happy all the time, but the ones who make it work are every bit as happy with their lives as couples whose monogamous relationships are working for them.
People who are not being themselves, or desperately trying to be something they are not (whether that's the polyamorous person trapped by convention and the wish not to hurt a partner, in a monogamous relationship that feels like a prison, or the monogamous person gritting his/her teeth and going along with an open relationship that doesn;t work for him/her in order to keep a partner) make themselves and everyone around them miserable, but understanding that there are lots of different ways to conduct your sex life and it's worth thinking about the one that's right for you is more likely to make your life better.

Nicely put SGB - thankyou.

I don't disagree at all with any of the SGB.

What I did say, and which you haven't really taken on board, is that a lot of people find it hard to be absolutely truthful with themselves over what they want- and when they get it, it might not be the bowl of cherries they anticipated.

I think there is a difference between non-committed relationships, swinging, and basically affairs that are given a more glamourous "more accpetable/alternative lifstyle" tag, as a conscience salve.

Ther may be couples who are very happy to have "open marriages" ie they sleep with other people, but I suspect that one is keener on the idea than the other, and they put up with it to keep the peace and the status quo.

There isn't an "obsessive cult" of monogamy; I am sure you are well-read and well-educated enough to have researched this, and know that even going back millions of years, monogamy- even if it was possibly serial monogamy-gave the human race the best chance of survival.

And even now, most people want a special relationship with one person.

Your posts are always so adamant that it begs the question whether you reject monogamy because a) you haven't found anyone who wants you long term and b) you did but it didn't work, so you then make such a song and dance over it being a goal for most people.

Mymuchness this is what you said

For me I feel lifes purpose is about loving and learning and probably that you can't continue this learning with just one partner.

You also said that you and your DH have only had each other- does that mean you were both virgins together?

I don't want to offend you, but your posts do smack of naivity and you come over as very "young".

If neither of you has had other partners, you are both bound to be curious. Whether you really want to jeopardise your marriage by playing around, is another matter. As the previous poster has said here, you seem tobe discounting the possibility that either of you might fall in love, or the other peopleinvolved might, and the whole thing could be one huge unhappy mess.

As for what you say about life is about loving and learning and you can't do that with one partner, maybe you need to explore what precisely that means. What kind of learning do you mean? That sounds so fluffy that it really needs some kind of exploring.

If I was to be very unkind, I'd say these are the sorts of thought and conversations you needed to have with yourself and your Dh before you got married!

I am not coming at this with any prudish sense of morality- I just think you are grossly underestimating the hurt that it could cause to everyone, unless they all want the same thing at the same time.

Purplepeony: So I only object to the cult of compulsory monogamy because 'I never found anyone who wanted me?' FFS any more stunning insights you'd like to offer? Such as, all these feminists would be a lot happier if they put on some make up and found a man to own love them?

And monogamy is all about men protecting their own interests and treating women as breeding stock; I haven't got time to google all the links but Cornelia Fine's new book will have some good stuff on neurosexism and the way in which we are forever being told that certain things are 'natural' when they are a way of privileging one group over another. If monogamy was so 'natural' it wouldn't need to be peddled so strongly with so much propaganda, nor would it need to be enforced with so much violence.

As to boohoo, people could get hurt if someone makes a conscious, thought-through decision to reject monogamy, well people get hurt - and hurt themselves - in the pursuit of monogamy. Just deciding that you are in love with someone and this person is your The One is no guarantee that the other person is going to feel the same, or that his/her feelings for you, even if passionate now, are not going to change. People 'fall in love' with all sorts of arseholes and do all sorts of stupid and frankly unethical things in order to try to 'make' other people fall in love or at least agree to remain monogamous.

Another reason modern monogamy and couplehood are pushed so hard (the modern version being this crap about one other person being there to meet all your emotional and physical and romantic needs) is that maintaining and policing an exclusive relationship (whether that's guarding against intruders or 'keeping the spark alive') is difficult and time-consuming stuff. The sort of difficult and time consuming stuff that diverts your attention from things like oh, social injustice, sexism, climate change - keep telling people that the most important thing they can do with their lives is sieze on an individual and devote all their energies to stopping that person fucking anyone else, and they'll ignore what's going on in the rest of the world...

But purplepeony, if we take you arguement to its logical conclusion then why even get married or enter into a relationship at all? Afer all, there is always the possibility that one or other of you will fall out of love/fall in love with someone else/get bored and decide to take up swinging and then accidently fall in love/discover that they are, in fact gay/bisexual/asexual etc, etc.

Whatever type of relationship you are in, or even if you are not in one, there is always the possiblity of falling in love, or a number of the options above.

Equally, things often turn out to be in mess within a marriage, or long term relationship, whether people are faithful or not.

I'm not sure that clinging onto fidelity for dear life as some kind of lifeline is necessarily the answer to a happy and fulfilled life. Have you seen how miserable lots of married people are and how the pick on each other? It's depressing.

I think the OP has been quite honest about her feelings, which is a lot better than the type of hypocricy that gets churned out by the long term, but unhappily married (we'll just grin and bear it) or the serial monogamists (see, we have been so moral by dumping one before moving on to the other one!)

sgb - :)

But purplepeony, if we take you arguement to its logical conclusion then why even get married or enter into a relationship at all? Afer all, there is always the possibility that one or other of you will fall out of love/fall in love with someone else/get bored and decide to take up swinging and then accidently fall in love/discover that they are, in fact gay/bisexual/asexual etc, etc.

Yes, but logically, the more people who are involved, the more chance of it going wrong.

SGB.. And monogamy is all about men protecting their own interests and treating women as breeding stock;

If you make comments like that do you really expect anyone to take what you think seriously?

You really are laughable.

SGBAnother reason modern monogamy and couplehood are pushed so hard (the modern version being this crap about one other person being there to meet all your emotional and physical and romantic needs) is that maintaining and policing an exclusive relationship (whether that's guarding against intruders or 'keeping the spark alive') is difficult and time-consuming stuff. The sort of difficult and time consuming stuff that diverts your attention from things like oh, social injustice, sexism, climate change - keep telling people that the most important thing they can do with their lives is sieze on an individual and devote all their energies to stopping that person fucking anyone else, and they'll ignore what's going on in the rest of the world...

You must live a very sheltered life and have some very odd friends if they all behave in a way that means they focus 100% on keeping a relationship monogamous and have no other interests.

The word patronising doesn't even begin to touch what you say here.

Sometimes I cannot believe you are a real person; just someone who rattles off the same old cliches all the time.

mymuchness IF you and your husband are happy with idea of sleeping with others then go for it. You really won't know how you feel until you've tried (which of course means you're taking a risk).

IF you or your husband is unhappy then I'm afraid there are only two possible outcomes:

1, You/him sleep with other people KNOWING that you are hurting the other.

2, You/he DON'T sleep with other people and the other avoids being hurt.

When all is said and done, it comes down to a very simple idea that we can all understand:

Do you love someone enough to put their needs before your own?

Because THIS is what this situation (and nearly all situations in relationships- excluding situations of violence/abuse)
boils down to.

I'm not going to get into the mono / poly debate here because I can see the different sides and personally feel horses for courses and all that. Actually screw it my tuppence worth on poly vs mono is it's about what the parties involved are all happy with. So long as all are loved and cared for and respected then got to it.

I'm in an 'alternative' relationship (although of a slightly different ilk to an open relationship) and it works for us because there are clearly defined boundaries which we have both agreed on and review regularly.

I think if you are both going into it for the same reasons (i.e it is what you BOTH want) and you are prepared to communicate and to be open and honest with each other about your feelings and expectations then it can work.

As for others in the community finding out. I guess it is a risk which people who embark upon alternative relationships take and it is a shame that fear of being judged for your sexual and relationship preferences in this way can stop many people from exploring parts of themselves they would like to.

My advice would be to carry on finding out info, keep talking to each other and deciding what you both want and take it slowly from there. You don't have to rush into anything and you dont need societies approval to follow any alternative relationship (caveat - within the realms of consenting adults).

FWIW i've never been so happy or fulfilled emotionally and sexually as I am now I am in my alternative relationship.

Elmtree- thanks - can I ask what the terms of your relationships are? What have been the downsides/benefits for you? Have you met much resistance?

Elmtree - how interesting! Do tell us more.

Marantha - the only people's needs I would put before my own would be my children's needs. My partner's - no way! He is a big boy and if I put his needs before my own he would walk all over me. I would never put a man's needs before my own - what a disaster! You will end up being taken advantage of. Women tend to be much too accomodating in this respect.

P.P: On the other hand I think it is the French that have an expression that goes along the lines of - marriage is so difficult that you need someone else to help carry the burdon (eg: your extra friend/lover.)

I do think that our European neighbours are a bit more together when it comes to this kind of thing and don't get their knickers into quite so much of a twist over it.

Am I the only one who wants to start singing "What's the story in Polyamory..." and has visions of Miss Hoolie and Josie Jump hard at it with PC Plum?

Well part of our relationship is the fact I am bisexual and he has no issue with me having a friendship with another lady that has sexual aspects to it.

However we have both agreed that this is in the context of a close friendship with a lady rather than me having a secondary relationship. This is mostly because he knows I have this side to me which I like to express every now and then, and he doesn't see that as a threat to our relationship. He does not sleep with any other women, although i'm not averse to something all together if the situation arises. He doesn't because we both see me expressing my bisexual side as different. If he were bi I would say go meet guys. But he's not. For me this is why it works, because we are both feel OUR relationship is not threatened by someone else.

I think the benefit is that he is allowing me to fulfill an emotional and sexual part of me. In our relationship he is very much in control (by mutual agreement, main part of our alternative relationship) and so this is a way of enabling me to have something for myself outside of his 'remit' as it were. We are both getting what we want and need and we are happy.

The downsides? A loooooooot of talking had to be done to get to this stage. Some arguing and some misunderstandings. Some tears, a near split. Lol. Because we are conducting ourselves in a different way to 'normal' we have had to discover a whole set of our own rules and behaviours with each other which are not necessarily the same as I have experienced in more vanilla relationships.

The benefits of this are that I have never been with someone who I have communicated so much with about things. Stuff we just take for granted especially to do with our sexuality, stuff that often I find is not that openly discussed, we have talked about over and over. Makes for some extremely fun times I can tell you ;-).

In terms of resistence most of my friends are aware of my relationship, some to a greater extent than others. A couple of family members also know, the ones who I felt were able to handle it ok. I don't talk about it to those I feel would be uncomfortable, because hey my thing aint necessarily someone elses thing and people can get a little freaked out by something which is not the 'norm'. I don't advertise my 'kinks' to my general aquaintences, I keep them private just like I did when I was more vanilla. I think a lot of people get freaked out about this sort of thing and thats ok, they don't need to participate in it and they don't need to know about it, I know for myself I am happy and making choices that are right for me and that's what I feel counts.

:-)

SGB, could you sound any more bitter and twisted about monogamy?

Talk about pot and kettle - remember last year you accused me of "protesting a little too much" about something or other? Said that people who have very strong feelings against things are actually secretly desiring those things?

That's how you sound now.

Your vitriolic rant - "the modern version being this crap about one other person being there to meet all your emotional and physical and romantic needs" makes you sound ridiculous and ever so slightly jealous.

Malificence you've made some really fab points and I'm glad to hear different perspectives - especially as you feel so strongly. I don't think Sgb has been vitriolic - but has simply asserted her own opinion strongly as you have and it seems like we've had a really good debate and opened lots of questions.-Id prefer if we could still ask those questions and spar and critique but not personally attack ? (I'm guessing you guys have some sort of history?!?) Keep posting cause its great food for though and you guys are really helping me - thankyou.

Malificence: Monogamy is fine for those who want to engage in it - it's just another fetish really. It's the peddling of monogamy, the insistence on the superiority of monogamy over all other ways of living one's life ( evangelical monogamists can't leave the celibate/single/asexual people alone, either) that I object to. And the 'one person should meet all your needs' stuff is unhealthy as it encourages people to think that there must be something wrong with either them or their relationship if they want to pursue any interests or friendships outside the Sacred Couple. Just because you want to live with someone doesnt mean you have to share their passion for brass rubbing or watching the cricket, for instance. The mindset of 'The ONe' also encourages the gullible monogamist to be forever dumping one perfectly nice partner for another, often brutally, as the monogamist thinks that they can ONly Love ONe Person so every new fancy is THe ONe and the previous partner now disposable.

Mymuchness I'm so glad you posted this. I came on this evening to post pretty much the same question

We've been together for 15 years, married for 11 and have a great marriage and a great life together. For a long time now we've been talking about being a bit more open in our marriage. I'm not so bothered about having anyone else at the moment (too busy doing other things!) but am happy for DH to.

Obviously I've name changed too.

SGB- what actually makes you happy? You do sound very jealous. Maybe if you went away and did a doctorate or something on this it would get it out of your system once and for all, and you wouldn't need to spout the same old lines all the time.

I have crossed swords with Mal on several occasions but I'd like to applaud her post as it echoes mine ( which I see you chose to ignore!)

You do come across as increasingly bitter, and it does smack of "Well, it didn't work for me, threfore it's not right for anyone else." You behave in precisely the same way as you accuse others of behaving. Can you not see that?

I don't know how you can't see it, but your remarks and generalisations are offensive, and patronising to the vast numbers of men and women who want a 1:1 relationship- yes, it might be serial monogamy- and who also have brains and judgement. You insult people who want monogamy by saying they are brainwashed into it. Women who have degrees, doctorates, highly professional jobs- are they really so gullible? Come off it.

As I said previously, if you care to read any anthropological or sociological articles that are not written by prejudiced feminists you would find that monogamy is millions of years old and is the best way to protect the species.

One of the reasons it may not work so well now is that we live longer- it's not that long ago that we all died at 40, and people change over 50 years so that's why serial monogamy is now almost a norm.

YOU might not want one person ( and yes, we all know that one person cannot offer everything we want) but maybe you can stop trying to convince us all that it's some kind of wicked plot devised by men and the media to make women "servants" to men's needs.

You do your own sex a huge injustice with this kind of patronising rubbish.

If you want to lead a life of swinging and just having casual relationships, that;s your choice. it sounds shallow, sad and a nightmare to me, but I wouldn't be so insulting as to say you were brainless when choosing it.

Going back to the OP- I think you should do what you want, but your DH has got to be in full agreement and once you go down that road there is no turning back. Some would say that you don't love him enough if you can tolerate the idea of him having sex with other women, others might say it's a case of having your cake and eating it, but if that's what you both agree to- and you are open with anyone else who gets drawn into it, that's fine. Yourlife!

I've never got the having cake and eating it metaphor. What is the point of having a cake if you can't eat it?
I don't think SGB sounds jealous at all. She's just putting across her point of view, which was actually asked for earlier in the thread.
Why can't you argue the issues without making an unpleasant personal attack?

Oh God rebecca- it's not that hard! having your cake and eating it means that you want to have the cake and keep it uneaten, so that you always have a whole cake, but also eat it as well. For cake, substitute faithful loving partner, and for eating it, substitute a bit on the side.

I still don't see why anyone would want a cake unless they could eat it. It would just go off.
It also seems a poor analogy as it's very easy to buy/make a new cake once you've eaten one.
Some people sound as though they do manage to have a more open relationship than usual and still keep the love between them.