How can I sort things out when I'm hurting so much? Advice desperately needed.....

[nightmare76]

Have been with dp for 15 years and married for 5 with 1 daughter. Over the last few months we have had a nightmare time where we have both come to the realisation that our marriage might be over. There is no specific easy to explain reason for this, but we have spent many hours soul searching, having discussions (we are both talkers and very open with one another), as well as counselling both individually and as a couple. We have both acknowledged that we have changed (sounds very cliched, but true) and want different things in life. We are however, very good friends and have similiar values and ideas as parents. Dh, although fully acknowledging our problems, is desperate to sort things out, and absolutely doesn't want to split, although does realise the seriousness of the problem. I don't want to split either, but, if I'm absolutely honest, and it pains me to say it, cannot say 100 percent whether I want to stay married or not.

We are now at the stage where we both feel emotionally drained and don't know where to go next. If we didn't have our daughter, we both agree that we would live separately for a time, to give each other space and time to really think about what we want. I have considered renting somewhere but obviously that involves uprooting our daughter, as she would spend half of the time at least living with me. (We both work similiar hours and have agreed that if we split permanently or temporarily, we would share the care of our child). Dh has offered reluctantly to stay at a friends, although I feel that this would only be for a short time and would feel guilty if he did this as its both our home.

The problem is that I'm hurting, he's hurting, and I feel dreadful for how he's feeling. Its like it would be easier if he or I had 'done' something wrong - at least then, we would have something to attribute the hurting to, and would probably have made the definite decision to split. I know the alternatives are to either split permanently now (but we feel thats too hasty), or, give it a few months longer under the same roof and 'work at it'. However, my gut feeling is that space and time apart would help because I feel that I'm drowning in all of it, and can't see anything clearly. I know there are no easy answers to all of this, but would appreciate any advice/experience from anybody who has gone through this - did you split temporarily? Did it help? Did you decide to split but remain in the home together in the short term? Am I wrong to expect this time apart, or unrealistic to? Is it asking too much to basically want out for a few months to sort my own head out? Ultimately I do feel guilty - I haven't done anything specifically, but dh and I both know that I am more unsure about things than him ifyswim. He is still my very good friend and sometimes it feels like my heart will break because I am hurting him, yet I can't pretend that everything will be alright.

You touched a raw nerve, reminding me of my life four years ago?

You sound like a couple who really, really deserve to look back on this time at some point in the future as the period where you changed, developed and grew not just individually but as a couple. And reading your words, despite feeling the pain you are going through, I get the message that you really don't want to split up, but can't work out how to get out of the maze/trap you are in.

Four years ago my DH and I had a big upset. We decided to be celibate for a while and he went off by himself for a few days. Only a few, so that it would not concern the children - we pretended he was visiting friends.
We were lucky. Being celibate made us want each other. He went away camping and sat on a hillside by himself and realised he did not want to be alone permanently. We promised that we would give each other space to get away from home life when we needed to and make a huge effort to spend more time together, like a dating couple.

We were lucky. It worked for us and I am actually glad it happened because it improved our relationship and made it stronger. We feel confident now that we can face problems together and are open about any negative feelings, so nothing is bottled up any more. I was naïve before to think that marriage is always easy. The hard work and pain actually makes it more valuable.

You say neither of you has done anything wrong but you want 'different things in life'. What different things? Are they so different that there is no compromise? I have found that compromise does not always mean 50/50. Sometimes one has to accept totally the other?s point of view for the benefit of both and of the child. But this must be balanced by concessions on the other side another time to prevent resentment.

If you are still good friends as you say, is it possible to change your expectations of what marriage is, rather than reject the marriage? Being good friends, with a shared history, bound together by a daughter, should be a good recipe for a successful marriage in the long term, so long as there is enough physical affection and sexual satisfaction for each to be comfortable.

Finally your daughter? If you can work through this now you can give her the stability all children crave. You are in pain now but perhaps you could work through it and you are adults. She will suffer if you split up and you may be feeling great emotional pain for years to come, perhaps all your life, as you see the effect on her. As a teacher I have seen it so many times ? separation and divorce is devastating to a child?s security and emotional health. If you can make the extra effort for anyone it will be for her. I do hope you can resolve things.

Good luck.

Thank you for your message greenwing.

Over the last few years we have had some stressful times - we both work in stressful jobs with long hours (although we both very much enjoy our jobs), I have suffered with depression (although this was many moons ago, but it did have a profound effect on me), and I have suffered 2 bereavements (the most recent 3 years ago) which apart from the obvious effects, has made me into a far stronger person who to some extent craves a great deal more independence and freedom to grow and change than I feel I am getting in this relationship. Thats not to say that dh is controlling or suffocating particuarly, but there is a clash of wills so to speak over some of the ways that we each wish to live our lives.

I met him very young - I'm not sure if this is a problem in itself, but I am a completely diffrent person to the person he met and fell in love with.

I very much see him as one of my best friends, but for some reason, I no longer fancy him. He's a good looking guy, but I just cannot pretend that I want him to make love to me.

We have tried to give each other some space on a day to day basis, but I feel I just need to be alone (although with dc obviously) and, I know it sounds selfish, but to look after myself and her. I understand what you mean about there being many good factors for a marriage. I'm not sure however that without the sexual side it would work long term. Its not just me - dh would also be reluctant to compromise as such so I can't see this working. We just both seem to be trapped in this spiral of pain. Dh has now told me he might see the doctor because not surprisingly, he is feeling depressed (this is completely out of character and obviously brought on by the last few months). This makes me think even more that something drastic such as separation needs to happen, if only for a couple of months, to help him clear his head. I think he is just so scared to admit to this as he thinks its the beginning of the end.

I suppose in the end you have to decide whether your need for more freedom and independence and to be sexually attracted to your DH (& I'm sure there are other things too) is more important than your DD growing up in a family with both her parents together.

Sounds like you've had some tough times but when you've been with your partner a long time that's normal. I look around my friends-bereavement, serious illness, death of a partner, death of a child, redundancy, unemployment, infidelity etc. - when you've been together 20 years plus that's what life can dish up. If I were in your situation I think I would just give it time and review, but I'm not you.

Thank you ladylapsang

I must sound so incredibly shallow as it seems that I am putting myself and my expectations above that of our daughter. My only saving grace is that my dh is a fantastic father and I know would continue to be so if we split. I know that ideally we would be happy and stay together as a family. However, I also worry that we might grow to resent one another, or plod along with neither of us truly happy and she will pick up on that. Perhaps we both have expectations that are too high in our marriage - we have discussed this at length. We have had many 'highs' as well as lows, perhaps we are unrealistic in thinking we can get them back and should be happy to settle for less for the sake of our daughter? We are desperately trying to consider all of this, which leads me back to the premise of time apart. I just know its not as easy as that.

hi, blimey i feel so so sad for you and your dh being in this situation.

sending hugs x

As neither of you is actively mistreating the other and you both want 'what's best' for all of you, how about looking into some marital counselling such as Relate? Talking things over with an impartial third party should help you either work out a way to stay together, or help you manage your separation in a way that does the minimum damage.

Hi solidgoldbrass

We have had some sessions with Relate. We did both find them helpful but in such a way that they threw up the painful questions that we both need to answer. They made us realise that we had both changed in many ways and that the dynamics of our relationship needed to change to accommodate this.

Its like we know the work that needs doing to at least try to sort it, but it seems such a mountain to climb and we are both exhausted. I can't put an exact time frame on things, but we have been in this very serious talking mode for several months and now it feels like overload.

OK maybe a break is what you both need. Could either of you move out and stay with a friend for a couple of weeks, or will the family budget run to a B&B for a short time?

I think only you will know what will work for you.

I don't think that trial separations/breaks are a good idea, for a few reasons...

• It gives you a false sense of what being apart would be like, it's kind of all the fun without any of the bad bits, a bit like going somewhere on holiday and thinking it would be a great place to live!

• You have the security of knowing it's not 'for real' - which means the experience doesn't feel the way it would if it was permanent.

• On the back of this 'unreal' situation one of you makes a decision that this is better - of course for a couple of weeks/months it is better - no stress, no 'talking' etc but it's not reality - so you are making a decision based on something that isn't real.

On the other hand, a week or so apart to just get some space from 'talking' isn't a bad idea - but only if you don't treat it as a separation....

However, this is only my opinion and you have to do what you think is best!

I think you owe it to children to try harder and do your best to work it out, but you don't owe it to them to stay together if you aren't going to be happy/fulfilled. You don't have to be so self sacrificing and kids aren't stupid.

You do need to evaluate what is important to you in life/your relationship etc and if you can each get that together or not.

People aren't perfect, relationships aren't perfect.... but you do deserve to be happy. You only get one life.... you have to make the most of it.

Good Luck x

Hi. I?m back to see how you are getting on and there is some great advice/opinion here. As ChippingIn says, trial separations/breaks may have pitfalls. Maybe you will need one but there might be a compromise just for now, to allow you both to have some time out of this awful spiral of pain.
As the Relate counselling was helpful you do need to resume it, but clearly it is too painful now when you are both exhausted. The issues which come up can often be as much about yourselves as individuals, as they are about you as a couple, so it is worth trying to sort all that out, even if you end up permanently apart in the end.

My suggestion is this; could you have the 'break' without being physically separate all the time? That means agreeing to have a set period of time (initially a fortnight or month?) in which you will live as you would if you were each a guest - almost a stranger - in the other's house, ie no sex, no touching, no discussion of emotional or personal issues, respectful and polite behaviour. You put the talking on hold and focus on living day to day. You could work out a timetable in advance to take your daughter out separately for different activities and make arrangements to go out separately in the evenings... After all, if you do split up you will have to do that sort of thing and timetable it constantly. It would give you a period of time to focus on the day-to-day things, on the mundane, on friends and on your daughter. If you are together in the evenings, hire only comedy films or daft action adventure. Perhaps arrange to do one thing as a family which you would never normally do like driving go-karts or bowling or canoeing (!) ? anything for adventure and perhaps even some fun. Fun is what is missing in most adults? lives I think.

I think the uncertainty must be causing a lot of the anxiety for you both. If you timetable a ?plan of action? at least you will know where you are and you could agree that after this month's break from discussion you would resume Relate counselling. Even if he moves out for a while you should timetable it and do the counselling when you both have things more in perspective. If you haven?t talked about sex much in counselling it surely needs to be a priority. Sex, after all, is what makes the difference between a life-partner and a good friend, so it is vital! We went from celibacy to just stroking to kissing and then the most intimate thing of all ? talking! We agreed that we would not be embarrassed or ashamed, or not say things because of not wanting to hurt the other?s feelings. It really helped. My experience is that if you loved/fancied him once it is possible sometimes to mend things.
Fingers crossed for you. Best wishes.

Greenwing - the living separately thing in the same house does sound worth a try. We both work long hours and this could work.

The problem is that dh seems impatient to actually 'do' something, he is very much a 'fixer' and needs the direction. I have tried to explain that emotions are not black and white.

I have been trying to think alone, and I also realise that I'm feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for the hurt I'm causing him. Even though neither of us has actively 'done' anything, I'm the one who is less certain of the future than him. Dh is normally a happy go lucky, relaxed person, and I know this is breaking his heart. Its also breaking mine, but I guess it must be even harder if you are so desperate to make it work. I DO want it to work, but I just cannot lie to him and say absolutely, that things are ok, reassurance which he is craving. I feel such a cow.

nightmare..
I am very sympathetic.
You both sound exhausted by it all, and I am not sure that a final decision made now will be made for any other reason than exhaustion and a self imposed deadline! I think Greenwing has some excellent advice there about living under the same roof. I think it would also do you both good to have more fun and work less. I am not saying that is a solution to your relationship per se, but that would allow you in due course to resume your working out of your relationship from a happier and much less exhausted state.

God its so hard isn't it?

I take all of the points on and hate the fact that I feel so bloody useless. The trouble is, neither dh or I are normally like this. We are both intelligent, thoughtful adults, yet can't seem to get out of this hole.

I completely understand the point about a separation not being 'real', and therefore seeming better than what it really would be. Dh seems in slightly better spirits today - he talked about it a bit to a good friend, which I encouraged and this seems to have helped. Although he acknowledges our problems, he is clear on wanting to really work at it - perhaps this is where the guilt from me lays, because I know it is right for this to work - for us as a family - yet, I do wonder whether we would return to this hell in say, 6 months and have to go through it all again. We have had problems in the past, ups and downs like everybody, but not such serious doubts to anywhere near this degree.

I think we both risk becoming depressed about it. I know that I am feeling the effects of the stress physically - I am normally a very energetic, fit person - and, whereas he is finding it hard to sleep, I am finding myself able to sleep for hours - not like me at all!

He did say something quite poignant - if we did have time apart, he feels that I would initially need to 'get to know myself and what I want/need before I can decide on our relationship'. I feel so guilty for this because its like its my fault, even though we discussed how we've both changed. I know its not dh's intention to make me feel like this, but its how it seems nevertheless.

nightmare - it's very, very hard, but honestly, nothing good is going to come of any decision you make right now.

You need some headspace.

You need some fun (as the others said)

You need some family time (without talking)

Good men and good relationships are hard to come by. Don't throw this one away because it isn't perfect. I think there's a lot to be said about happiness being 'wanting what you have - not having what you want'

You are right chippingin.

Dh has moved temporarily into the spare room. I know this sounds bad, but we decided together it would be the right thing to do as we both need some headspace. We are both feeling more positive today (I think!) and strangely, have realised that the deep, dark talks are getting us nowhere! We have decided to plan to have some fun separately with friends, etc, and, at some point soon, will plan a day or evening together. Our work patterns mean that day to day we are pretty busy, and I think thats a good thing.

Dh seems to have backed off a bit, but only in a good way, not in a cold way. I have talked to him about how upset I am that he's hurting and he has been very reassuring. I can see that any decision made now would be a bad one. It feels that by backing off, and him going into the spare room is almost like admitting defeat, or, the beginning of the end, but it was decided in a positive way. My only concern is that we are 'letting go' and this process will continue in such a way that we'll realise we're not meant to be together. On the other hand, I know that our deep talks were also not getting us anywhere. At the moment, because the pressure is off, or at least not as heavy, we are both much more relaxed and amicable together. We get on so well as friends and parents, I can see how some people choose to live like this. Dh even said that maybe our expectations of our marriage needed to change. On the other hand, I know that deep down, we wouldn't want to continue to be part of a marriage based only on this forever - I know some people would, but we've talked about whether this would be right long term and feel that it wouldn't.

I am the sort of person who likes things sorted and clear, and, although I'm feeling a bit more relaxed, its also heart breaking feeling that we are kind of teetering on the edge.

Hi
How are things going with you nightmare76? I hope for your sake things are still more relaxed and amicable. Best to take it slowly, whichever way things go.
Take care.

It sounds like you really love each other.

I love the saying, 'paralysis through analysis'.

Hi

Things have improved on a day to day basis. Dh has kind of 'backed off' but in a nice way, and over the next couple of weeks, due to work patterns and me and him doing our own things with our friends (although we have saved a night for ourselves next week), its not too bad.

Dh is feeling a bit better, but our relationship, for one reason or another has definitely changed over the last few months which means that possibly our expectations of marriage also need to change. He doesn't seem to be hurting so much, because, when he was, it was like severing a finger. I know now that a little reassurance goes a long way. The physical intimacy isn't there and that worries me at the moment, but I just don't feel like that towards him at all. I guess that comes from the emotional distance we're experiencing, but it is a concern that I just do not and cannot feel like that towards him.

How do you feel if you picture your DH with another woman? That can be a good test.

Nightmare, I can't tell you what to do. What I can tell you having been divorced is that single life is very tough, too. I think married women in unhappy relationships can idealise the single life. It's that Eat, Date, Bonk fantasy. I'm not saying you are doing this but I would say beware of thinking that the grass will be greener. You should assume that your DH will meet someone else before too long. He sounds like a decent guy and they're aren't that many of them. How would you feel about that?
I found being divorced very hard emotionally. It was lonely and I often felt like the outsider. I did get remarried but for a long time I thought I wouldn't and it was bloody depressing. I went on some truly horrid dates.
My marriage isn't ideal but I do value my DH, I do accept that there will be rough times and I am 100% committed, as is he.
I think the main reason you are both so stressed is because you are in this no-man's-land. I would suggest taking the pressure off by agreeing not to make any major decisions for a year or so.

Thank you for your messages.

Eurostar - that is an interesting point, and I've thought about it alot. I find it strange to imagine, but, as result of all of our talks, which in some ways have highlighted the differences between us - our ways of thinking, our directions in life, etc, - I do frequently think that there would almost certainly be somebody better suited to him.

He had been backing off recently, however, last night, he wanted another deep talk just as I was going to sleep and got quite upset because he felt that I didn't reassure him enough that everything was going to be 'alright'. This morning, he went to work in a bad mood, but phoned a while ago to say sorry for 'pressuring' me. I explained that I understood why he got so intense sometimes, and he said he felt that if he didn't keep 'trying' by way of these deep talks, that I would want to finish it. I know its really hard for him - we naturally tighten our grip on things we are afraid of losing - and this is not his normal nature at all. I reassured him today that I wanted it to work but was not prepared to say 100 percent that I thought it could long term. We both agree that we could bumble along for a few months, I imagine some couples do this for years, if not the rest of their lives, but as I've said in other posts, he wants to be in a marriage thats more fufilling than that.

My other worry is being unable to feel that I want to have sex with him. I explained this to him and he was so understanding, although has since become more touchy feeling than ever before and says 'I love you' about ten times a day, which I guess is his way of trying to keep physically close to me. He's at work today, and after phoning earlier to clear the air, he then said he'd phone me again later. I asked him not to, to concentrate on his work and I'll see him tonight. I know hes so scared and upset, but what else can I do apart from being honest and talking at the moment?

"I do frequently think that there would almost certainly be somebody better suited to him"

Hi - you sound quite detached in saying this. I meant more him being sexually involved with another woman, whether or not they are suited. Do you think it would raise any jealousy in you if he was sharing affection and sex with another woman?

Hi Eurostar

I am thinking long and hard about that. If he found out that he had been affectionate/slept with another woman whilst we are still together, I would feel upset and angry because of the betrayal and because he felt he hadn't been able to talk to me about the reasons why he might be tempted to do that.

However, in terms of imagining him with another woman if we decided to split, I don't think I would feel particulary jealous, just sad that it hadn't worked out for us. Thats not a good sign is it

I am thinking long and hard about everything and wondering if to some extent, I'm starting to see him as some kind of victim. I feel so sorry for him because I feel like most of this is my fault. He is so desperate to do whatever it takes and doesn't doubt his love for me at all. I've never seen him so sad. I know that another poster said to give it a year, but even though we are not regularly arguing and talk very calmly and kindly, its so a very difficult and tense way. to live

You say you wouldn't feel particularly jealous..but maybe a little bit? This could be the hint that feelings are still there for you? He sounds like a good man and he's not likely to stay single for long if you split up, if you change your mind then, it might be too late, for sure probably too late to stop someone getting hurt.

Seeing him as a victim certainly won't help as I can't imagine respecting and wanting a man who I look on as a victim.

Actually Eurostar, I'm sure I wouldn't feel jealous, I've just stopped looking at him in that way. I know what you are saying about giving up a 'good' man, but in some ways, I would feel quite selfish to only stay with him for that reason. Obviously there are major implications for our child which I have thought about a great deal. It just keeps coming back to our expectations - at the end of the day, I know that if dh doesn't feel we have our closeness back, he won't want to stick it out anyway. In his own words, its 'all or nothing'.

I am going back to feeling quite desperate to have some time on my own (with dc as well), I feel I really need this to clarify the situation, but know its not as easy as that.