How to handle childrens' birthdays amid strained adult relationships?

[ViviPru]

I have a very difficult relationship with my brother and his wife. I used to have a close relationship with their children but since relations have become more strained between the adults, I have seen little of them. I'm sad about it but I can live with it most of the time until their birthdays, which I can't bring myself to let pass unmarked.

I initially sent gifts and cards to the house but this was deemed unacceptable by my brother and his wife, who are of the opinion that gifts must be given in person on the day. That would be the ideal, naturally but I don't feel comfortable visiting their home with relations so strained. I am thinking of putting gifts for the children in some sort of trust until they are of an age as to make their own decisions. I'm not sure how to go about doing this though, or whether its even the best solution.

What do people think about this?
Thanks in advance

Wow! How lucky must they be that everybody delivers cards/presents in person on the day! How does that scenario play out where people who live far away but still want to mark the day are concerned? Do they have to take a day off work to deliver it in person? What about anybody who lives abroad, or is unwell? are they forever cast out because they didn't adhere to the rule? Or is there a 50 mile ( or whatever) inclusion zone and anyone who lives beyond that is exempt from your brother and SIls pathetic attempt to control everyone?

Sorry, yes, in your situation I would do exactly as you suggest and post a card telling your nieces/nephews that you have put something aside for when they are older.

Just as a matter of interest, if you did send card/present in the post, what happens to it? Does it get passed on or returned?

Are they issuing you a challenge by doing this or is it an olive branch, albeit badly handled? It's a shame that they are willing to let their dcs miss out on a relationship with you. I think the idea of putting something away is a good one.

Thanks both for your replies. When I sent a parcel of gifts at Christmas, the parcel was (literally) thrown back at me on my doorstep unopened. I explained that I work until past their bedtimes most week days so struggle to visit on weekdays, and at weekends DH and I are usually either working, up to our ears in commitments made months in advance (a practise they refuse to do) or shattered and just want to pass out.

The next birthday I was recovering from surgery so was off sick so was able to take a gift in person.

The following birthday, we'd arranged to visit on the day dispite it being massively inconvenient. My parner was unwell so we made our apologies and I tried to reschedule visiting another day which ended up in a row, I was told that if I couldn't come on the day I was to bring the gift in person prior to the birthday.

Their view is that if I don't visit regularly then they don't know what they're supposed to say to the children about gifts arriving out of the blue from estranged relatives. I don't feel comfortable visiting though with relations as they are, which they don't seem to grasp even though I've explained in very simple terms. They say that if I cared about the children I would make the effort to see them regularly regardless of the fact that the adults do not get along. I have I have 5 other nieces and nephews with various other siblings and SILs and BILs (with whom we have very good relationships)and they all understand that we might not be able to see as much of their kids as we'd like but we do what we can and always acknowledge birthdays with gifts.

I suppose its hard for mumsnetters to offer advice without being aware of the context but I'd rather not get into that as there are two sides to every story and it would probably be unfair to just present my own.

DH thinks we should just sack them off altogether but I love the children. I've no one else really to talk to about this....

It sounds as though there is a lot to this and I appreciate you don't want to give the entire back story.

If I went to the effort of purchasing gifts and arranging to have them delivered, whether by mail or by another friend/family member, only to have them thrown back at me unopened, I would stop trying to have a relationship with them. It is heartbreaking, I know and understand, but I would not allow myself to be treated in that way, however much I loved the children. It sounds as though whatever you do will never be good enough. If you fall in to line about when presents 'should' be delivered, what will they do next to try to control you?

I don't know of any family where everybody gives/receives gifts on the 'right' day. It is just not possible. We all have commitments and sometimes birthday celebrations have to wait a day or so. DH had to wait until the day following his birthday this year, to celebrate his birthday as DC was coming home from Uni but couldn't get home for the actual day. I had to wait a week for my Mother's Day card because the post office had it hanging around one of their offices. Shuld I have expected DC1 to spend around £30 to get on a train to deliver it in person on the day? My Dcs, when younger, often had to wait for cards or gifts from various aunts, uncles and even grandparents, because of holiday clashes/illness/just plain inconvenience to be here on the day itself. It happens. Life happens.

I wonder if there is some jealousy going on here? Maybe you have what they perceive to be a 'better' lifestyle than them? Do you have children? If not, do you think they resent the 'free and easy' lifestyle they probably believe you have, without the constraints that children inevitably bring?

Whatever their reason, it is no excuse for treating you in this way. You say you have good relationships with other siblings and their children, so it really does seem as though this is your Db and SILs issue, not yours. In this case, I would definitely do as you suggested. Put some money away for the children for when they are older. You will need to be careful about this though, as I don't think you can do it in their names without having things like birth certificates etc to hand and if you put it in your name you need to be careful about tax etc.

Thank you so SO much for taking the time to post, you completely get it and that means a great deal to me. DH and I do not have children yet, we'd like to one day but we're building up our own businesses and the time isn't right yet.

You've hit the nail on the head in that they must perceieve us to have a frovolous, free lifestyle (which couldn't be further from the truth - I work a 70 hour week). My SIL (who is a SAHM) told me that I have my priorities wrong and that I shouldn't put work before family, but she struggles to appreciate our lifestyle because I make a point of never complaining about our working hours or other sacrifices we're making because they are choices we made ourselves. I have never passed opinion on her status as a SAHM as I respect her choice.

These aren't the core reasons for the fall-out though, it is all against the backdrop of a much larger family fall-out. My sister has officially ended all relations with my brother & SIL, my Dad has given up trying to maintain a rlationship with them and my mum is desperately limping along in a dysfunctional relationship witht them as she can't bear to lose contact with her grandchildren. I learned recently that my SIL no longer has a relationship with one of her own sisters with whom she was formerly close; arising from another, separate fall-out.

I've tried to remain neuteral throughout it all as they never actually did anything specifically against me, even though some of their behaviour toward others was more than enough to make most people feel animosity-by-proxy.

I am of the mind that sometimes you have to just accept that people don't get along so its best not to force it so you should just maintain a distance. I still feel a strong bond to the kids though which comes to the fore around birthdays and Christmas.

I see the idea of putting money away for them as the only solution, so I'm really glad that others here agree that this is a good idea.

Can you post a gift addressed to the children to arrive on the right day? Or even a gift token or money as they get older?

Thanks Acanthus, I was told in no uncertain terms was I ever to post a gift again, right day or not, and I would not want to risk my brother arriving on my doorstep again in a blind rage to return it.

One of my neices is older, although she still lives with them and I sent her vouchers on her birthday, to which I receieved a personal thankyou from her, which is inconsistent iwth the family stance, but then that's the nature of this issue.

Generally, I'm learning how to handle the situation with them in the wider context, its just every time a birthday or Christmas rolls round (which is often as they have 4 kids) I don't know what to do

I just thought that posting might be a way to show that you don't necessarily accept their attempt to control you, without a direct confrontation IYSWIM. I do understand that you will be on pins waiting to see if he turns up in a towering fury. But that's HIS behaviour, and out of your control. Really, no one can justify going round to shout at someone who has posted their child a present. He will be out of order, and as soon as his children are old enough to see their own post on the mat it will start to be outside his control(or else eventually he might start to look at his own bonkers behaviour)

Yes you certainly have a point there - that's precisely how my Dad sees it and he continues to post cheques for birthdays even though they are all returned to him. Its just a bind going to the trouble to choose gifts, parcel and send them knowing full well they won't be given to the intended recipient!

I'm leaning toward a card on the birthday along with a note to the parents explaining I won't be bringing gifts to the house as I don't feel comfortable doing so....

It really sounds as though whatever you do will be the wrong thing here, doesn't it! it does however, sound as though this really is a problem with your DB and his wife, rather than with you.

I would do exactly as you suggested. Maybe carry on sending a card and then put away some money or even start some sort of collection for the children for when they are older. You did not ,mention the sex of the children, but something like a charm bracelet with a new charm for Christmas and Birthdays? Over the years the value tends to improve and when they are adults it would be a lovely gift to receive whilst proving to the children that you thought about them often.

I am sure that you could think of something along similar lines for boys as well.

Good luck with it!

If they think the presents should be given in person then they need to make amends and you all need to apologise and start afresh.

If they throw presents back on your face what would they do if you sent money?

I think the idea of putting some thing away for them, in a CTF or National Savings etc is a great idea. Then you can send a card, or the certificate or whatever, and when the kids question what happened later on, you can explain that you did care and you made an effort and let them make their own minds up as to why their parents were weird freaks

Well that should have been struck through. Never mind. The gist is there

They sound really strange! I've never heard of anyone being in a temper because someone's given their child a present!

Do they ever give you presents for your birthday or for Christmas? I'm guessing they don't, but just wondered.

It does sound as though they are both as mad as each other. It must be incredibly hard for your parents in particular to have to put up with this.

I don't think you are going to be able to have a normal relationship with the children - I don't think the parents will let you. I'd send a card each birthday, saying that you are unable to bring a present to the house and that you are putting some money (I would specify the amount in case they think they are going to be millionaires!) into an account for them for when they are 18. If the children know you care about them, they may contact you themselves when their parents fall out with them (this sounds inevitable, sadly.)

hi atswimtwolengths, thanks for your comments. I'm reluctant to say they're strange, of course I think they are but I'm sure they think they're being perfectly rational.

Thanks for considering my parents. my Mum has barely had a nights sleep for over 2 years for ruminating/worrying about the wider situation and my sister and I worry for her health. My Dad is more concerned about the upsetting effect its having on everyone else.

I think posting on here (and over on MSE, my more regular e-haunt) about this has helped me realise the point you make, that a normal relationship with the children is out of the question. Throughout, I've been careful to ensure there's not one tangible action or behaviour on my part that could be construed negatively by the children. Thats why I'm so keen to get this gift thing right.

Now its just a case of working out the best way to go about this - sending a card to the children? - a note to the parents?

I'd just send cards to the children for Christmas and birthday and say you'd put aside £20 or whatever into a bank account. If you add "as usual" onto the second card you send, then when they eventually see one of these cards, they'll realise that you've been doing it all along.

I didn't mean to insult you by calling them strange. It's just that their behaviour is so odd. I've never heard anything like that, that you can't give a present except in person. What's Royal Mail for!!

Sorry, I asked earlier... have they ever sent you a card or present? Do they give you anything at all?

Sorrento, I think if I sent money it would probably be returned in the same way in which my dad's cheques are.

They maintain that it just causes upset if the children receieve somethng from us and wonder why they've not seen us for ages. My SIL said "what am I supposed to say to them - that you can't be bothered to make the effort to bring them a present on their birthday??" I feel like saying no, tell them that their parents have alienated people to such an extent that they feel they cannot come to the house, but I just don't think its constructive to get into that kind of tit-for-tat

Do they ever go to visit anyone? Why should it be one-way?

oh no atswimtwolengths, you didn't insult me at all - they're mad as a box of frogs but I'm trying to remain objective here!

I'm desperately trying to remember if they sent me anything this year as I appreciate the nuance of this, thing is I was recovering from surgery at the time and we were having a kitchen fitted on the actual day so my world was mayhem then.

Moreover, shortly before my birthday I did undergo invasive surgery which involved a hospital stay and a months' bedrest, and did not hear a scrap from them throughout even though at that time we were supposedly "trying to make an effort to get along" and they were fully aware of my circumstances... I chose not to retaliate against this though even though I found it hurtful.

Remembering how much better things were with a mumsnetters in-laws after speaking her miond, I would say, yes, say it. Why should you be painted as the bad guys when they have been so unwelcoming?

OP - just on a practical note, it is now very hard to open an account in a child's name (money laundering rules I think) and you would probably need to involve the parents to do so. Each child should have their own Child trust fund, but that would have been opened by the parents, and although you can pay in you'd need to ask them the details. And you might find that even if that was allowed, when the child got the money when they turn 18 they wouldn't be told that you had contributed...

So it may be that you just need to open a separate savings account and pay in each bday and christmas, making notes of what you have promised each child, then a cheque on 18 or 21 birthdays.

Sorry for your situation though, it sounds stressful and difficult. You are lovely for trying so hard re the children. I suspect they will want to know you better in the future when they have more say over their lives.

Sorry Atswimtwolengths, I keep cross-posting you! they don't really visit, no. They used to before the 4th came along and back in the days when everyone was getting on better but maintain now that with 4 children they prefer people to come to them. The last big row we had after their DS4's birthday, when Mr. P had been ill, they said that I should make the effort to visit the children more, that I should just 'pop in' but I'm never passing their way, I'm not driving a 30 mile round trip on the off chance that they will be in and happy to receieve visitors. I explained we tend to organise visiting people in advance, but they say this is not acceptable to them, their plans often change at the last minute.

My SIL said that my brother couldn't care less if he never saw me again, it was the kids she was concerned about, to which I asked how they seriously expect me to just 'pop in' with the knowledge that he felt that way? lovely way to spend a rare afternoon off, I don't think!!

StewieGriffinsMom what a lovely thing to say. I think being nice is part of the problem though. They have expressed their anger about how I refuse to openly side with anyone throughout the whole affair, and get very irate when I refuse to be drawn into tit-for-tat arguments. They know they have done things that they would expect me to haul them over the coals for and I think it wrongfoots them that I refuse to be react. They're not very emotionally intelligent and I think they find me hugely disconcerting.

thanks FeelAwkward that's good advice