Do we expect too much of our marriages?

[DeathandTaxes]

I have had another thread on here lately about how I am finding it increasingly difficult to feel loving towards my dh because I find him selfish and thoughtless in the extreme, and also quite indifferent to me at times.

A lot of posters gave me some great advice which I intend to use.

However, I wonder if I am expecting too much from my life and my marriage, becuase I have healthy children, great friends and a lovely home, as well as financial security...maybe its being totally unrealistic to the point of being greedy to expect a satisfying relationship with my husband on top of all that.

Surely nobody "has it all?"

I see many women who are married to plonkers for 20 or 30 years, so how do they do it, and if they can do it, why can't I? Problem is, I also know many women, who whilst they have big ups and downs with their dh, I still see great affection and friendship between them, and that always makes me feel very alone and very sad, because I know that my dh and I dont have that. I think that we did, once, but it has gone now, or at least at the moment.

Is it tempting fate to wish for this with my dh, when I have so much else to be thankful for?

No, you are not asking "too much" to have a good relationship with your husband - far too many women (and men) settle for sub standard marriages where only one person puts in any effort.
I don't claim to have it all ( a huge lottery win would be needed for that ) but I do have the best relationship I could possibly wish for with my husband of 25 years and our 20 year old DD, - that is down to respect and thinking as much about his needs as my own, and vice versa.

No you are not asking too much.

My parents 'have it all' as you say - a loving relationship, respect for each other, a beautiful home, financial stability, a grandson, healthy children and great friends.

They have what I hope DH and I will have in 25-30 years - I certainly think we are well on our way.

No you are now expecting too much. No one has it all although many would have you think they do. I felt like you aged 33 and splitting up from husband 8 yrs older than me. I am now in v happy marriage second time around. Nothing is perfect but it is all a darn sight better that before. I have learnt so much and 'grown as a person' from going through the whole splitting up process and benefited from being a single parent too. i am much more confident and know what is important to me now.
if your 'little voice' says time to change things- it probably is.

Oh dear. I was hoping you were all going to tell me that actually if you had all the other stuff, then you shouldnt look for more.

As the child of a broken marriage I always swore to myself that I would not ever EVER leave a marriage unless in cases of domestic violence or serial adultery.

Now I find myself contemplating divorce, because of seemingly (in the greater scheme of things) trivial things. At least they seem trivial when I say them, his short temperedness, lack of sympathy when I am ill, his constant putting himself and his own needs before mine, his ability to be so friendly and convivial when we are out with friends, then when we get home the tv is switched on and I am ignored, the fact that he has never once in 10 years told me I am beautiful, the fact that though he knows our sex life is unsatisfactory he has never made any concerted effort to address it, the fact that he did not buy me anything for our 10th wedding anniversary, etc etc, it goes on...

Fuck it. I know I am not perfect either, but I have tried, really hard, and now I am just tired of trying. And if he is unable or unwilling to change then I think we need to talk about splitting up.

personally I don't think they sound like good enough reasons to split up.

Certainly good enough reasons to have a good old shake up - lots of talking, maybe a weekend away or even some counselling - but not split up.

Certainly good enough reasons to tell him to shape up or ship out!

My grandmother is very bitter and twisted in her old age that she "put up with stuff" for years and years, because that was what you did. She wasn't abused - my DGD is a lovely bloke - he always provided, but they fell out of love about 50 years ago as their expectations were so different. I have always sworn i would never end up like this!

Googie - The problem is that we have been to Relate for two separate sets of sessions over the last two years, we have been having problems now for 5 years, and I have been quite unhappy for most of that time. We have had the counselling, we have had the talking, we have had the weekends away, (most of which were a disaster) and yet we are still stuck in the same place.

And after 5 years now, I am beginning to think that it is time to start considering the alternatives, as the children are beginning to notice the discord between us.

He has never told you you are beautiful? What about before you were married? :(
I'm not sure I could have married a man who didn't think I was beautiful.

(I am not btw, but DH thinks I am which is what is important)

I think the modern media bombard us with images of "perfect lives" (including perfect marriages) - that advert from John Lewis was an example - so there is a tendancy to expect too much (and to think that everyone else is living a wonderful happy life all the time

But real ife is never like that. Marriage is not always perfect(at least not mine). However with communication, committment and compromise from both partners it works well. But if all the effort is from one partner, it must be very hard to find a reason to stay in the marriage.

SugarMousePink - Wish I knew the answer to that. I am beginning to feel that we are unfixable, and that is not a nice realisation to come to.

my aunt and uncle had it all, the house (massive with loads of land) 4 lovely kids all privately educated, both had successful careers, money etc etc, but what they never had right from the beginning was a relationship based on friendship and love, it was lust for them, and so it went on for 20 years but they were unhappy, and spiteful to one another and down right miserable to eveyone else, they plowed on but in the end they split, it turned out he had about 6 affairs, they are both now much happier apart but unfortunately the kids have been BADLY affected after years of watching back biting and sneering etc from parents, so i suppose my point is dont just stay together for the children, if you have done everything possible to make it work, (and by that i mean be happy together not just gritting your teeth and getting on with it,) then at the end of the day maybe just maybe its better to be apart,

Thank you susiedaisy - that is a very salutary example and fairly pertinent to me. I have always been of the just grit your teeth and get on with it school of thought, for the sake of the kids..but now I am beginning to think that I cannot face a lifetime of that, and that if we cannot be at least good friends to each other, then, well what is the point?

I think you're almost looking at it the wrong way round. I don't think I'd feel I had the 'perfect' life, lovely home, social life, friends, children if I didn't have a relationship based on real solid love and mutual respect with my DH. I find it hard to separate the two things in my mind. The life we've got - children, our home, our social life, friends, are built on that foundation of the relationship, not kind of bolt-on. I know everyone has aspects of their life which are separate - friends etc - but all the really important central things are surely built with the person you love?

I posted on your other thread, and I really hope you can find a way forward.

I also agree that we are constantly bombarded through the media with this image of a perfect life, which of course is unrealistic, and I think any long term relationship needs working at. But both partners have got to want to put the work in, and sadly if your DH doesn't see the need for that, you can't make up for his lack of interest just by working doubly hard yourself. I think in reality most couples have disagreements, off days, phases when life's a struggle etc but when you know deep down that you want to spend your life with your partner, you just accept the difficult patches. If one partner isn't really engaged in the process then I don't know how you ride the tough times.

Yes, thanks Violethill, you have given good advice to me on the other thread which I intend to follow.

I suppose as you said, its the feeling that you are working at your marraige alone that makes the difference. I have read countless books on marriage relationships etc in an effort to understand and make things better. My DH has seen these books lying around from time to time and has just laughed at them.

Would never occur to him to read them, or even ask me whether I found them helpful and what was in them.

I think you're taking all this on as your responsibility, and feeling that if you work enough for the two of you, you can save the marriage.

I really feel for you. But you can't do it alone. I still think (as I said on the other thread) you need to spell out for him how bad it is. Tell him there is no point in considering further counselling, or reading self help books, because he doesn't seem to want to make the marriage happier. I am assuming that he can't be completely happy with how things are either, but perhaps he finds it easier to focus on other things, you mentioned his busy work life, which means he can avoid confronting the uncomfortable issue of marriage?

I don't think you are expecting too much - we all deserve to have happiness in our lives and if for you happiness includes a loving and mutually respectful relationship then of course you deserve one.

However, I do think that people are very quick on here in general to say 'leave him' at the slightest provocation (this has been something I have observed here and in AIBU) when for some people that is very much a kneejerk reaction to a solveable problem.

There was an interesting article in a magazine I read a few weeks ago about a sample of 5 women who had left their husbands mainly because they felt they deserved better (more exciting life, more equal sharing of responsibilities around the house, more treats and romance etc.) and none of them were happier or better off single and in fact ended up bitterly regretting their decision. I don't mean to say a bad relationship is better than none, I don't think that's true at all, but I do think that some people see leaving as the solution when in fact it is often the start of a whole new kind of heartache.

You do have to work at relationships and none of us are perfect. I think in a way literature and the media tend to over-egg the happy ever after thing, or the divorce thing, but don't say much about the vast spectrum of in betweeners.

I guess this doesn't really relate directly to the OP, so sorry for railroading, but I have genuinely been quite shocked since I joined mn a couple of months ago at how easily people seem to shout 'leave him' and 'dump him' for what in my book would be fairly minor or easily resolved things.

Sorry you're feeling like this OP, and hope you find resolution which is right for you, whatever you decide.

D

My grandparents have precisely that attitude. They believe that I should worship the ground my DH walks on because he is well off and able to provide for me better than any other couple in my family, and I have a house, kids, can be a SAHM, etc. This means that I should do everything that he wants and never ever contradict him, out of sheer gratitidue...

I went to a therapist briefly a few years ago and he described it a "survival" mode of behaviour - that what is important is to have enough to exist and "living" life in any meaningful way, e.g. personal ambition, quality of relationship, was secondary. I think there's a lot of truth to that.

So it's a choice - do you want to survive or do you want to live?

I agree with that deliaskis.

I do sometimes think there's a kneejerk response, and often it's over a specific event, where with real communication and a willingness to move on, the couple should be able to resolve it.

The key though is the willingness. If deathandtax's DH really doesn't care enough to want to improve things (and given that they've had two lots of counselling together he must surely know things aren't right) then I don't think it's a case of being too quick to give up. It's more a case of deathandtaxes battling on for what could be the next 30 years, feeling unloved and unhappy.

That's really interesting squitten.

I wonder whether that applies to the OP. She mentioned on the other thread that her DH is very involved with running family businesses, so maybe the physical things, the outward signs of their successful life - house, social life etc - are all funded by him, and perhaps this makes the OP feel she has to be eternally grateful and just put up with the fact that there is a lack of personal ambition, and real connection with her DH? I've had a number of acquaintances who seem to have the marriage you describe squitten, where there is quite an imbalance of power, and the DH earns everything, and is able to provide the lifestyle, but the quality of the relationship is dubious.

I couldn't live with someone who provided the 'perfect lifestyle' if we didn't have a meaningful relationship, I really couldn't. Far better to make do with less 'outward stuff', but have a postive inner life.

Hi DeathandTaxes,

Sorry to hear about your position - I could have written it apart from the counselling - my DH would never go for that! Its a very lonely place to be. It is just surviving rather than living.

I do think we expect too much from marriage. Its not as blissful as portrayed in the media and I think people have a tendency to imagine everyone else's marriages are wonderful. I'm sure this is not often the case.

I think there are some good points other posters have made about people saying 'leave him' too easily though. At the moment I'm in the stay for the sake of the kids camp, but I do question it daily.

Violethill - Yes, two sets of counselling and waiting on the 3rd, i suppose at least my dh agrees to go, but what is the point of it if nothing really changes..

I would be happier in a smaller house with less money if my dh became the person I needed him to be, ie my friend, someone who cared for me and looked after me, (in the emotional sense as opposed to material). I am not a very material person anyway, I dont buy designer clothes, dont drive a fancy car, and dont go on foreign holidays, even though we could afford to do so. My husband could take his work down several gears and we would still be comfortable, but he is totally driven, and though he says it is all for me and the kids, I rather think it is all for him, to feed his own ego, and in constant search for the approval he never got or gets from his parents.

That is a whole other thread. The point is, I have tried, and he probably has too, or thinks he has by virtue of attending counselling..but he is who he is, and I cannot see him changing at this point.

So, I could stay for the kids and fill my life with other things. Or we could have a dignified and civilised break up which I know would be horrible for all concerned, especially the dc, but which might, just possibly, be better for all of us, in the very long run that is our lives.

I reallt do not know the answer unfortunately.

Reegee - I am doing what you are doing, and it is a lonely place. Do you think you can do this until they are all grown? Are you happy at all with your choice?

To answer the OP in more general terms I think marriage does entail compromises, realistically.

I think also that maybe we do expect too much if the husband has to provide all the emotional support, sympathy and friendship and so on to someone. Maybe in earlier times a woman would get a lot of that from her local extended family and local community. But now we tend to be far more isolated and need the DH to be able to provide all of that.

I'm just theorising really but I just feel that in previous eras the men and women had more separate lives and that that wasn't necessarily a bad or unhealthy thing. But although times are different now, many men still don't seem to have learned emotional literacy.

That's interesting Katisha about family support versus leaning on the DH more for all support emotional & friendship etc. I don't think it's too much to expect, but it is a harder job than it probably used to be and even in this day and age, is something that a lot of men (generally more men than women, depending on background and their own family) aren't particularly conditioned for. I used to have a boyfriend who had had a very traditional upbringing (military type father, quite distant relationships in immediate family, would never talk to family if upset or worried about something) and he really struggled with the whole emotional support thing. It wasn't that he was unwilling, but he didn't know what was needed.

I very soon after found myself a very cuddly and supportive chap who knows exactly what I need but it's not something that come naturally to everyone.

D