Do we expect too much of our marriages?

[DeathandTaxes]

I have had another thread on here lately about how I am finding it increasingly difficult to feel loving towards my dh because I find him selfish and thoughtless in the extreme, and also quite indifferent to me at times.

A lot of posters gave me some great advice which I intend to use.

However, I wonder if I am expecting too much from my life and my marriage, becuase I have healthy children, great friends and a lovely home, as well as financial security...maybe its being totally unrealistic to the point of being greedy to expect a satisfying relationship with my husband on top of all that.

Surely nobody "has it all?"

I see many women who are married to plonkers for 20 or 30 years, so how do they do it, and if they can do it, why can't I? Problem is, I also know many women, who whilst they have big ups and downs with their dh, I still see great affection and friendship between them, and that always makes me feel very alone and very sad, because I know that my dh and I dont have that. I think that we did, once, but it has gone now, or at least at the moment.

Is it tempting fate to wish for this with my dh, when I have so much else to be thankful for?

It seems that deathandtaxes marriage is never going to be so bad she feels forced to leave; her dh isn't abusive. He also seems willing to remain with the status quo- maybe not exactly happy but not sufficiently unhappy either. This means the onus is entirely on deathandtaxes to instigate any change. Really difficult one. Only she can decide if the status quo is sufficient for her in the long term

You've got it in one Violethill. And therefore if I decide to separate from dh, i will be the one who has to explain it all to the kids, as it will be seen as "my" decision, I will be the bad guy in it all, the one who put herself first, even though if I do make that decision in the end, it will have been out of sheer desperation and despair.

I can understand your worry, but I don't think you should let that be the deal breaker between staying and going.

TBH, children are intuitive little things, and will become increasingly more so with age. They will pick up on the emotions around them, and basically, the role model they are being given is one where on the surface everything is happening 'normally' - their parents have a social life, even go away together for weekends etc, but underneath that veneer is no real connection or love. I think you need to be really honest with yourself here. Your marriage is the most significant relationship your children are growing up with - it's what will influence their decisions in later life about choosing a partner, and what they expect from marriage.

So, I don't think you are doing them any favours long term by feeling you have to remain in an unhappy marriage. Your children won't understand all the nuances of your marriage at the moment, but they won't stop loving you, or their dad, and as long as you work to keep things as amicable as possible, and time with you both is split, then they will cope. All children know other children from split families these days, so although it's sad, it's nothing out of the ordinary. It will be very hard when you split though, and I would get some professional advice on how to work through that, as your children may display all sorts of emotions.

There is also the issue of your family and his family, and how they will react - and yes, I can see that his family are likely to naturally side with him. But I just think you need to be honest, after all you have been for counselling and things haven't been right for a long time, so it;s not as though you haven't tried. You have said what you dearly want is to stay married but to feel loved and appreciated and that your DH wants to be with you, and that sums it up really. If he doesn't reciprocate, then you can't do it alone.

I am not someone who would normally suggest splitting up, unless it's a violent situation, because I think there is a tendency these days for people to throw in the towel too quickly, or react to a specific problem rather than work to resolve it. But in your situation, if your DH really will not engage with you and work at improving things, I can't see much alternative.

Best of luck anyway. I still think that you need one last ditch attempt to show him how close to leaving you are, and maybe this will be a wake up call to him.

Thank you Violethill for the wise and kind words.

DH is willing to engage in counselling,and as long as he is trying (even if his efforts have not worked to date) to sort this out with me, I am prepared to stay, but I will make it clear that I do not intend to stay in the long term if we cannot get out of this destructive cycle.

I want to feel I have given us every chance to stay together.

Someone gave me some very sound advice once - ask yourself "am I coming out as a net winner or loser from this relationship?"

I think people do have unrealistic expectations of marriage, especially after a number of years have passed, and nothing is ever perfect.

But you need to decide yourself what the tipping point is - are you a net loser, and if you are, what could you both do to redress the balance?

If you can't do anything to come out as a "net winner" then perhaps it is time to move out - but that should be a last resort and after counselling has been exhausted.

D&T all the things you mention are ones which are present in my marriage although my dh has done worse things and refuses point blank to go to counselling. For a long time I thought I was to blame as I had very low self esteem.

I know what you mean about being lonely and them living to their requirements. We only have sex or physical affection when he wants it otherwise he is 'too tired, 'too full' or 'too hot'. I have become sick of this and still can't see a way out until the children are older.

This last year has seen my dh turn a new leaf but sadly I can't get excited because there is too much hurt and anger from the past. He is probably confused why I am not waiting for him with arms open wide. I feel so angry that he was the one who badgered me and asked me to marry him only to then turn really weird on me causing severe depression and years of unhappiness.

There does seem to be a lot of things worth fighting for in your marriage and I believe that a lot of people have issues in their marriages which they eventually work through or learn to live with especially when there are children to consider.

Gosh D+T it does sound as though your partner doesn't make much effort. I am lurking here as I am finding myself in my own midlifecrisis. The difference is I get on well with partner but as a friend. Just don't want to have him as a lover any more. This seems to be a selfish reason to end an otherwise good relationship and split up a family so I just plod along thinking there must be loads of people who don't really fancy their spouses that much.

Someone I have known a long time recently announced that she and her husband of 20+ years are splitting up because they are no longer compatible in the bedroom department. They are good friends and it is amicable, and they have 4 children, so it can be done.

Don't know what to suggest but it sounds as though you have more to complain about than me, and I know how frustrated I feel sometimes and yet on face value I have the "perfect" husband - truly, he would be snapped up. Even I would recommend him and no doubt I will end up kicking myself if it all goes tits up and he walks off with someone else.

But what to do when the spark has gone? Like you I have tried everything. I wish this was a midlife crisis but they tend not to last for 10+ years. And it's not that I am bored before someone tells me to take up a hobby - I work, have loads of friends and interests.

Midlifecrises - I do sympathise with your situation, becuase whatever the circumstances, feeling like you are with the wrong person is a very lonely place to be in a marriage.

I dont even expect the spark anymore, I would be happy with having a friend, I really could settle for that.

Problem is my dh is not my friend. I am not looking to him to make me happy, just want him to stop making me unhappy iykwim.

Oh D&T

"Problem is my dh is not my friend. I am not looking to him to make me happy, just want him to stop making me unhappy iykwim."

That says it all to me... I really feel for you... I never usually post on relationships, but I lurk a lot, and this time I just couldn't not reply.

I don't think you're expecting too much at all. Your husband has to be your friend. I cannot see how a marriage can survive without that, at minimum. He has to be someone who you enjoy spending time with, and who makes you feel good. Not necessarily all the time, but certainly the majority!

That, combined with your earlier posts where you mention that councilling hasn't been fruitful (i.e. the impression is that he cannot be who you need him to be, but is not a bad person at all - just that you're incompatible) and the fact that you'd be happy with less material things if the relationship was better, makes it quite clear to me that you have tried, but have come to the realisation that your life will never be truly happy with your husband. :(

I'm wary of writing the next bit because I don't want to be seen as smug, complacent, or rubbing anyone else's noses in it, or whatever...but I do believe that you can "have it all"...

We're not loaded, but we are comfortably enough off. We live in a picture-postcard location (purely down to a succession of fortunately timed house moves and what turned out to be a great gamble of moving to Canada; taking advantage of a good exchange rate and low property prices) but most importantly, we are both crazy about each other. I would happily give up our comfortable lifestyle and live in a bed-sit with him (and our 2 kids!) if that was what the future held for us and it was what we had to do to be together... I look at him and definitely still think "phwoarrrr!" and he says the same about me (and I suppose one of these days I should actually believe him!)

YOU deserve to be adored and fancied.

I know it's easy to say from the outside, and maybe my viewpoint would be different if I was living your life, but I'm sure that I would rather be single than be with someone I felt didn't appreciate me...and as long as every effort was made to keep any split as amicable and friendly as possible, I'm sure the DCs would understand, given time, and be much better off in the long run to know that it is not (hesitate to use the word) "normal" for couples to merely co-exist in an atmosphere of tension and sadness...

I don't have a lot to add to this as I'm no expert, but I just wanted to say that if you're planning to stay until the kids have left home, and then leave, that could affect them just as badly as leaving now. This happened to a friend of mine when we were at uni and I know she felt a lot of guilt that her mother had been very unhappy but had stuck with it for her sake (whether or not this was really the case, she perceived it as such because of the timing). I think she would have preferred a sensitively handled split as a child over the emotional burdens placed on her by them both as a very young adult.

Lazydog - I felt like crying when I read your post. Your marriage is obviously so, so different to mine, you are so very lucky.

Thanks for posting and your advice. Its nice to know that it is possible to have such a great relationship. I think my dh were friends once, many moons ago, but a lot of the affection, respect and trust was ruined for me when he abused alcohol during the first 7 years of our marriage.

He has kept it under control for the last 2 years, but I sometimes think the strain of that is what makes him so full of resentment and it is directed at me.

Your last paragraph i totally agree with, and am bearing in mind as we face into our 3rd, (and to my mind) final set of counselling sessions before we decied where to go from here.

Intergalactic - That is food for thought indeed and strangely encouraging too.

if you don't expect much...you always get less than what you expect!

Just want to say some really good posts on this topic i am finding they are helping me think about my situation, (which i have posted about) and what i have to do next, some very wise people on here.

SusieDaisy - I agree, that's why i find MN so compelling, there is such a lot of shared and collective wisdom out there, and all you have to do is post and its there for you. Its like having fantasticly supportive female friends who are always there for you!

I actually feel (strangely!) encouraged having read about the alcohol issue, which I think you didn't mention before.

Not making light of it at all, but simply that it is a SPECIFIC issue, rather than the feeling that maybe he just isn't the right person for you, and that you'll never connect IYSWIM? And if there is a specific issue, it maybe means a glimmer of hope that its something he can deal with, with the right professional support.

You say this happened for the first 7 years of marriage - was there a trigger? What led to him mananging to keep it under control?
I agree that the strain of doing that may be making him resent you. It seems that this alcohol abuse issue is the thing to focus on now. If he can come to terms with it, maybe that will be the spark to rekindle the relationship -because its clear that you totally believe at one point you were friends and connected.

Your posts have touched a lot of people on here, and we're all rooting for you, you deserve to be happy and I really hope you can find a way to revive your marriage.

"Problem is my dh is not my friend. I am not looking to him to make me happy, just want him to stop making me unhappy iykwim"

This is a very important point. For instance, being ill when you're on your own isn't much fun and can make you feel a bit lonely but being ill and having someone constantly ignore that, not help out, make you feel guilty for asking to be looked after- I think that makes you feel much worse.

You say your husband is contantly seeking his parents' approval. Maybe he is doing the same with you but just cannot believe that he would get this by being loving and caring and is convinced it would come from material success? Hence he feels he isn't getting your approval although he is trying, this links into the feelings of not getting his parents' approval so he ends up in a messy resentment of you? Have you looked at any of these possibly dynamics in your two rounds of counselling so far?

Separation isn't the end of the world but it does hurt children very often. If you are to separate I would say, try to stay living as close to each other as possible so that the children's lives aren't too disrupted and go to mediation to keep on good terms so that the children aren't made to feel guilty for siding with one parent, feel the need to hide a new partner from a more resentful parent etc..

Thanks Violethill, really appreciate that.

DH always loved his pints, when we got together we were both party animals, in our twenties, a bit immature probably, but we enjoyed our night life! Then we got married and as our family grew, I kept thinking and hoping that he would grow up and stop coming home plastered. It wasnt every night or anything, but often enough to impinge on family life. For exmaple, I can remember many sundays where he spent most of the day either in bed or on the couch nursing a hangover, while I looked after two toddlers.

Or at a friends wedding where I came home around 1am, and he staggered through our front gate at 7am having left the hotel at 4am and gone on drinking in the late pubs in our town. This is in a SMALL town, where everyone knows us, and he himself is a PHARMACIST FFS!

By the time we had dc4 he admitted that he had a serious weakness towards the drink, and vowed to go to a counsellor specialising in addiction. We went a couple of times, but the binges did not stop. I think now that he was only going to placate me.

Finally in desperation and pregnant with dc5, I went to his father and told him all. FIL was very sympathetic and supportive, he told me he had always suspected DH has a problem in that area but had hoped that it had calmed down, and told me he would speak to dh. He did, and also his brothers all spoke to him, he was very ashamed and vowed to change, but refused to go back to the counsellor saying that he didnt need anyone telling him his behaviour was wrong when he know that already and that it was up to him to stop it.

So, he has improved to a great extent, the binges happed rarely now, (maybe twice a year) and never as bad as before, and he can go out once a week for a few pints and 9 times out of 10 is home not drunk.

But he has still overdone it on occasion. I notice that he still finishes his drink before everyone else, and is always happy to have another one if someone offers. He would never say "No, I have had enough thanks" and indeed gets very angry with me when I tell him he has had enough.

Recently we were out with friends and he drank 8 pints and a whisky. When we got home at 1am ,he wanted to have another drink and when I told him he had had enough and we should go to bed he got very sneer and said well I wasnt counting my drinks actually.

I feel he resents me deeply for all this. For going to his father and shaming him, for forcing him to curb his behaviour, and for continuing to worry about his intake. He accuses me on not trusting him on this issue despite his improvements, but to my mind it is not about trust, he has a weakness inherent in him, and he should not even trust himself around booze and should drink with caution.

Sorry, should have really started a new thread around this but I do feel that is where a LOT of our problems spring from. He resents me for holding him back, and quite frankly I resent him for making me be his keeper, I am my DH's keeper, and I never wanted that.

Death and Taxes your last post rings so many bells for me i could of wrote it! and LeQueen you are so lucky, i know i know its not all a bed of roses for you, but to still feel that for your H after all these years is fantastic,

Lucky Lucky woman you are LeQueen.

I was deeply in love with dh when we got married, and did not marry him for financial security.

If I had been cold and clinical about it I would not have married someone who so obviously had a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol.

But I did, and he does, and it has damaged our marriage in ways that I am only beginning to recognise.

Nah, you are better off than most, what you and your dh have is pretty priceless.