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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bit of a long rambled post, but would appreciate any thoughts

57 replies

IOnceWasMe · 02/08/2010 15:53

I am not sure what to make of my marriage. It has always been a bit strained, in my opinion, however DH has always thought we have a good marriage.

There are so many petty little things I could mention as examples of why I am unhappy, but just to focus on one thing, here is a recent discussion we had.

I initiated the conversation because I was upset. Earlier that day I had felt a bit overwhelmed by things (prob because I had only had about 4 hours of broken sleep due to ds waking, and I am also doing my master's dissertation so I am quite stressed in general). I was feeling a bit sorry for myself and having one of those moments when I felt like I couldn't cope and I suppose I just wanted a hug and a bit of support in a 'you're doing well, you can do it' sort of way. Sounds selfish writing it down, but well, that's what I was looking for rightly or wrongly. I tried to tell dh this and he ignored me. We had arranged to go to the park with the dc's. So once we were back home and the time seemed right, I tried again to discuss why I was upset at him ignoring me being upset. The conversation went a bit like this (I have started keeping a diary to try and work out my thoughts and feelings):

I asked why he didn't want to comfort me when I was upset and asked for it.

He replied he didn't want to touch me because he was scared of me and what my reaction would be.

I asked why? He replied it was because apparently a few weeks ago he tried to kiss me goodbye on the bus and I rejected him which made him feel awful in public. I don't remember this at all, he didn't confront me about it at the time, or at any time in the past few weeks to talk about it. If I had done this and understandably hurt him, I would like to know - why couldn't he tell me and then we could have patched things up instead of just assuming that he should then not touch me at all? (if the shoe had been on the other foot, I'd have been texting him as soon as getting off the bus, asking why he wouldn't kiss me!)

When I asked him this he replied 'You must admit you've been stressed this year' and then went on that it was because I do too much and he wouldn't do half of what I do. (For the record, along with my uni work, I do laundry, looking after children, feeding them and very basic cleaning - so the bare minimum really). He then said that it was understandable that I had so much stress and that is just the price the whole family have to pay for me doing my MA.

I agreed that I have been very stressed and I do feel bad about the effect on the family and I am sorry for that.

He then went on about me being blinkered about life (basically we moved last year and I feel very isolated and lonely here so I want to move back to where we were for support network reasons and also financial reasons. There is a long back story here in terms of discussions but the upshot is that we are moving back once I am finished in a month or so) and how I hate where are living now and see the other place as paradise and perfect and I am not open and able to see what the rest of the world has to offer.

I repeated my reasons for wanting to move (just to be clear, his work has an office in both places and he is free to work in either place. I have told him that if it is important for him to stay here, then we could work something out with him working here and coming home at weekends).

He then replied with 'and you always go on about your perfect au pair family and the perfect dad there.' (I was an au pair about 6 years before I met him. About 2 weeks ago he mentioned about someone sweeping the floor everyday saying 'isn't that excessive?' and I told him that when I was an au pair, the dad and I swept under the table every day when we cleaned up after supper).

And then he went on to talk about how he feels awful because I am always miserable around him and never happy, and only happy when I am watching telly, talking to someone else on the phone, reading stuff online etc. It's true - I am more serious around him and I am unhappy in our marriage. I have tried to talk about this but somehow we are bad at communicating and the conversation always goes the wrong way (another reason I have started a diary, to work out what our communication problems are so we can try to resolve them).

He then went on to say that I am a control freak because of a washing up incident. Another back story here! - a few days previously he said he would do the washing up to help me. I had run the dc's bath and was waiting for them to finish watching their cartoon before the bath. It was literally a few plates etc (we had leftovers) so I thought I may as well do it as it would only take 10 minutes max and then it would be done (he was on his laptop so not about to do it). Often when he offers to do the washing up he leaves it for several days and I didn't think it would be an issue if I did it (I honestly was not trying to control him and would have left it if I realised it would offend him if I had done it).

He finished up by telling me that I am aggressive and I shout at the children and he doesn't like it.

I replied to this that it's true, and I feel bad about that and I will try not to because I know it's not fair.

It is true I have been raising my voice with the children recently. It's definitely something I am not proud of and I know it is because I am stressed and over-tired. Whenever I have raised my voice it has been to say things like 'come on' or calling their names (if they are don't respond after me calling them several times) or to break up a fight (as in 'hey stop that'). I have never called them any names when raising my voice as I feel it's important to focus and criticise behaviour rather than the person and if I have raised my voice I have always apologised afterwards and explained it was wrong of me to shout at them and that I am just a bit tired etc. But, I know I need to work on that, and I haven't raised my voice since (my dad used to shout when we were children, so I am trying hard not to repeat that on my children and make it up if I do slip).

We had this discussion after supper, and while the dc's were watching cartoons, so by this time their programme had finished and I needed to do the whole bathtime / bedtime routine. While I was settling the children, dh went to bed himself so I didn't speak to him anymore that evening.

The next day he acted as if nothing had happened and was back to being sweet and caring.

I suppose I am just asking for an outsider's opinion on this sort of conversation, bearing in mind of course that this is just my side of the story. We do seem to have these sorts of conversations a lot, so I am trying hard to look at our relationship and its dynamics as a starting point to try and resolve why I am unhappy about it.

OP posts:
IOnceWasMe · 03/08/2010 10:28

Yes, I agree as I would be the same with my cousins that I never really knew - I just found it strange in his case because his family are very family-minded. They live in Latin America and it's a bit like a stereotype in a 'big fat Greek wedding' sort of way. Family comes first there and all the aunts and uncles and cousins etc are always visiting each other. Dh always goes on about the importance of family and how he finds it weird that I don't see much of my aunts and uncles and cousins. I suppose that's why I found it weird although you're right, maybe I was projecting. I found it sad about his cousin - we didn't talk much due to language barriers, but I spoke a lot with her sons (they are only a few years younger than me, and one of them has the same interest / hobby as me). So I didn't know her well, and I wasn't howling, but I still felt sad at the thought of her death and also how her sons must be feeling suddenly losing their mum just before Christmas.

I'm doing that thing again though, aren't I? Like with my reaction to him not telling me I had hurt him when I didn't kiss him on the bus. Interpreting his reaction based on what my reactions would have been if I were in his shoes.

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 03/08/2010 10:35

He's Latin American? Then he has been raised to think that women are second-class human beings and his constant sabotaging of you and refusal to back you up is because he might on the surface say (and even think) that he wants an independent, educated partner, deep down he wants a house serf, dependent on him, obedient and sexually available all the time.
SO he's isolating you, stopping you applying for jobs, telling you you're doing too much BUT NOT HELPING YOU WITH THE DOMESTIC WORK... You think it will get better when your dissertation is finished? I doubt it. If he doesn't fuck it up so that you have to abandon it, he will manage to find some way of stopping you getting a decent job.

Anniegetyourgun · 03/08/2010 12:03

Oh yes, I'm sure we are all capable of being manipulative at times; it's part of how civilisation works, negotiating/cajoling to get what we want rather than hitting people over the head with a big club. It's a question of degree and fairness though, and to what extent one should need to manipulate rather than negotiate in a life partnership.

There's also the question (and here my own bitterness seeps through again, I give you fair warning) of whether it is true. That thing where you're supposed to have avoided kissing him on the bus, for example. You don't remember it at all, but he said it was hurtful. Maybe you forgot because it didn't seem significant, maybe you didn't see him go to kiss you, or maybe he had only thought of doing so but not yet made the gesture, so the rejection was all in his head. Or, just conceivably, it was entirely made up. On the other hand, if he is truly afraid of you rejecting him forever on the basis of one misunderstanding on the bus (assuming it really happened), you're not the only one who's over-sensitive.

violethill · 03/08/2010 12:14

Very good post there Annie, it sums up very well that human behaviour is a spectrum, which includes all sorts of subtleties and shades of grey.

To pigeonhole the husband on the basis of his ethnicity is really quite shocking in this day and age!: " deep down he wants a house serf, dependent on him, obedient and sexually available all the time." Simply because he's Latin American If people operate on this basis, then it just becomes an excuse for any unreasonable behaviour - 'Oh that's my culture, it's how I was raised' blah blah blah.
Human beings are all capable of behaving in a huge range of ways -indeed, the OP intelligently points out that we are hearing her perspective, and acknowledges that her DH will have a different one.

mummytime · 03/08/2010 12:33

I think you need to get some relationship counselling, the pair of you. You didn't have time to learn to communicate before kids and still don't seem to be doing it clearly now.

You do seem controlling a bit, deciding where you live, why it would be better and how it would all work out. You haven't said why you've moved or why your DH might not want to move.

My DH says things to me sometimes which I mis-interpret as criticism. Maybe that is what happened in the story about sweeping?

Do please get some help to learn to talk to each other clearly, and listen.

IOnceWasMe · 03/08/2010 17:40

This thread has turned into a reflection of how my thoughts are in terms of all the different thoughts and interpretations!

In my mind, I do swing between working out what I can change in my behaviour (as obviously only he can change his!), trying to discuss with him to get his perspective to work out why I feel the way I do, thinking that we just have different expectations and aren't compatible, thinking that maybe I should just try to relax or make more of an effort, thinking that he is a lazy sod (and general feelings of resentment) and so on. I realise that makes me sound like I'm losing the plot but my thoughts just keep going off in all directions.

Concerning cultural differences - I see what SGB is saying. His family are very patriarchal and in my experience a lot of the older generation in his culture are although it is changing slowly. We've talked about this, and he agrees with me about men and women being equal and sharing responsibilities in conversation. I think his actions show otherwise but he disagrees when challenged on this and says that he tries to help me as much he can (but that he can never please me as my standards are too high). I have no idea who is 'right' - it's different perceptions and values I guess.

I do think though that culture can sometimes be a red herring in the form of a scapegoat (we did this a lot with each other in the first few years) and yes, an excuse. I suppose thinking about it, it's a question of personal values and determining whether (or how much) cultural 'traditions' cross the boundaries of the other person as to what can be accepted or not and how to compromise? Something else to think about!

Mummytime - I agree it does look controlling of me to insist on moving back. Here's the backstory with my reasons:

Financial - staying where we are now, a budget where we each contribute 50% to household expenses and the extra needed for me to pay off my debts would mean me needing to earn £3000 per month after tax (bearing in mind that I would be a recent grad in my 30's with very little experience). Moving back, I would need to earn £1700 per month after tax (and the minimum wage is quite high there so I would actually be able to earn that working full-time on minimum wage). The cost of childcare and rent are the biggest things affecting the budget.

Other - we moved here because of my degree. It was a 1 year plan (all our things are in storage over there) and dh really wanted to move (he really likes it here). We don't have any couple friends here, I have a few uni friends and as far as I know, dh doesn't have any other friends outside of the office (and he doesn't socialise with co-workers outside of client dinners). I think he likes the fast pace and liveliness. He has quite a few friends in the place we moved from, we also have mutual friends and I have my own friends and some family (who admittedly I am not super close to, we maybe meet up a couple of times a year). But most importantly I have a good support network, people that I can rely on should I need it and a few couples with children similar ages, so we can do babysitting swaps etc. This means so much and this past year I have really noticed how much. I can't rely on dh (when he promises things, sometimes he does it and sometimes he pulls out), so it is important for me to have people I can rely on in an emergency or just for times like now when I could do with a little bit of extra support.

Dh would like to stay here another year or two but not forever. His work are flexible as to which office he works in, but he believes that staying here would benefit his career the most. I have told him that if he feels he would be better staying here and commuting for family time then surely we could work something out? He ummed and ahhed about it for a few months, but the latest is, he wants to be with us, so he is moving back with us.

I think the location discussion is a big incompatibility that needs to be discussed though and a solution found because it worries me. Dh told me a few years ago that he has a 5-year 'rule' where he doesn't like to live in the same country for more than 5 years. He's not sure where he would like to settle, there are 2 countries he keeps coming back to in these discussions (I typically bring it up maybe twice a year because it feels like a bit of a timebomb ticking in the background), one of which he has connections with, the other neither he nor I have connections with. He has also mentioned a few other countries. I have told him I would consider an international move providing that he has a job organised to go to etc (as we both have debts and of 2 children and no savings, so financial responsibility outside of ourselves). He is more of a 'wing-it' type of person and would happily move abroad without having anything lined up. He has mentioned a few jobs now and then in other countries and I have told him to apply and see what comes up but he hasn't applied for any of them. But ultimately, especially since having children, I have felt a strong need to have some sort of stability whereas he is more of an adventurer who wants to explore. When we met, I was an adventurer too, but one who always wanted to come home at the end of a trip. Having children has changed my outlook though.

OP posts:
IOnceWasMe · 03/08/2010 17:45

Annie - I assumed it was because I hadn't seen him, it hadn't occurred to me that he might have made it up (what would be the point in that?)

Is that gaslighting? I posted briefly on another thread and NicknameTaken gave me some links about gaslighting. I can't think of any situations where I have 'caught' dh lying about things (although I have with his mum and it rang a few bells there ).

The idea of manipulation is still a bit of a headspin for me though. You're so right about grey areas and a spectrum rather than black and white - that's what makes it so difficult to pinpoint.

OP posts:
Anniegetyourgun · 04/08/2010 09:35

If he did make it up, or exaggerated it, then yes, that's gaslighting. The point would be to put you on the back foot, so that when you tried to discuss his unkind behaviour it became your fault, not his. He has a ready-made excuse for behaving like an arse, excuse me, unsupportively, ie that you hurt him first, that you are the one who needs to apologise, that you, basically, are the one with the problem. And, kindly and self-analytical soul that you are, you dig inside yourself to try to understand either what you did wrong, or why he believes you did wrong, and how to sort it out between you. Meanwhile he has achieved a beneficial result to himself: he got away with it, with the added bonus that you are now even more apologetic and therefore likely to cut him some slack next time. Because you know you're busy and distracted and a wee bit snappish yourself, you'll beat yourself up instead of calling him on bad behaviour.

I don't know your H. But I do know people who behave like this. And I think I do know you, because you are me (only with more energy and patience). Difficult to pinpoint, my word yes - it took me over two decades.

IOnceWasMe · 04/08/2010 12:14

God, yes, now I understand the concept of gaslighting a bit more. When I originally googled, it seemed much more extreme (i.e. blatant lying) but I certainly recognise the exaggeration. It's just hard to believe a grown adult could behave like that - it's so childish!

There's no way to prove what actually happened on the bus though, so impossible to say if that's the case here. But how do you recognise if someone is gaslighting? How can you know for sure, when there is no way to go in back in time and see what actually happened? How can you be vigilant and watch out for it, when it could in instances that you don't even notice at the time?

Like in the bus example, could I then say to him something like 'Really sorry about the bus incident, was truly not my intention to reject you in public and I honestly don't remember at all you going to kiss me and me not kissing you back (I actually did say this to him at the time when he brought it up). I guess I didn't see you but i don't know what happened. But if I do something like this again, will you please point it out at the time to make sure I know what is happening because I wouldn't like to hurt you like this again?'

Would that help?

Can I ask you (feel free to tell me I'm a nosy bugger and to mind my own business!) how it went in your relationship and how your thought processes were? I have been unhappy for a while (several years on and off actually) but it is only these past few months where I have reached the stage of trying to work out what is going on deep down, within me and between us, and my thoughts are making me start to distance myself from the relationship, whereas before, I was very much in the relationship and looking for concrete solutions to fix the 'now' or the latest incident. Now it's the first time I am trying to get a big, overall picture and it's so bloody difficult. I keep getting clear glimpses of different pictures, if that makes sense? It's like being in a hall of mirrors!

OP posts:
Anniegetyourgun · 04/08/2010 14:32

No, there's usually no way of telling, as you say. Unless you very clearly remember an incident for some reason, or have witnesses, and his description of it is quite different. Even then there's no way to be certain whether he is deliberately distorting things or just misremembers.

What you propose to say is an excellent response (some might suggest you leave out the "sorry" or change it to "Really sorry if you were upset about..." - . It will only make any difference, though, if he's on the level.

My relationship... it would be a major saga. There are so many aspects to it. It's amazing how often I read threads on MN and go "Hey, XH used to do/say that exact thing". So what's relevant, let's see...

I believe in communication, or to be more accurate I'm a hopeless motormouth, whereas he's more what you might call the strong silent type or, to be harsh, a moody bugger. I would always try to talk things over, explain, clarify. He'd assume I knew what he was thinking and had done something different on purpose. The first I'd know I'd done something wrong was the bear-with-sore-head impression, and it would take several days of digging to get him to tell me what it was all about (much of that playground nonsense like "you know, of course you know" when obviously if I'd known I'd have either apologised for it or explained it). Eventually I'd dissolve into tears - or in later years when I'd had just about enough of it, get quite angry. Then it would come out, and it would be some really stupid thing. Like one time we'd been watching Mastermind and one contestant's specialist subject was the football world cup. XH was quite scathing on this as a subject, and I agreed but added that I thought it was quite clever how the researchers managed to make challenging questions on it. Just then one of the DCs started a conversation on the side with me (happened a lot! no quiet telly time in our house!) about our various roles in the family. I said something like well your daddy is extremely good at fixing things. A bit later he had That Expression on and did the silent treatment for two days. I eventually dug out of him that he assumed I fancied the bloke on Mastermind and thought he was terribly clever for answering questions on stupid football, whereas all he (XH) was good for was fixing things - the latter said in a high whine that was supposed to be an impression of me. I explained that it was two quite different conversations and I certainly didn't fancy the Mastermind bloke one bit, and that I was extremely admiring of his fixin' ability, but he didn't seem mollified. I said look, we really aren't communicating here, I think we need a course of couples counselling. He said in wolfish tones "This marriage is over the moment you set foot in one of those places". I said "It's over if we don't". I must have looked as if I really meant it, because next thing he was terribly sorry and I should have realised he was joking and we could sort everything out between us and I was the love of his etc. The next day it felt like we'd come to a new understanding, marriage revitalised; he said he would never have a go at me like that again, took me on a rare shopping trip and offered to buy me an eternity ring. It was overpriced and would have come off my credit card anyway, so I passed on that.

Or the sex thing. Any time he was up for it but I wasn't, I'd be terribly polite and apologetic but he'd still sulk for days. He would call my period "the convenient time", because he said it gave me an excuse not to be available . One time when I said not tonight please, I'm awfully tired, he told me that that was it, he was never initiating it again and if I ever wanted it I'd have to take the lead. This appalled me, as I'm sure was the intention, as for one thing I'm not that great at rejection either, and I've never been very confident in the bedroom department (he was my first and only lover, I wonder if that had anything to do with it?). Fortunately, or in hindsight unfortunately, he didn't mean it.

I used to work up in town. He'd drop me at the station in the morning and pick me up in the evening so he would have use of the car. In fact even when we lived 10 minutes walk from the station he'd insist on doing this, even though I was looking forward to the extra bit of exercise and not dragging him out with the DCs at ungodly hours. He said the area was dangerous. (It really wasn't.) When we moved further away we got another car, but somehow he still nearly always needed to drive me (he'd be doing some major works on one car which would somehow drag out for weeks, or it would have some mysterious ailment that he couldn't diagnose but which would be ever so unwise for me to drive). And he'd start off from home ridiculously early to meet me from the station. I'd call home to say the trains were up the spout and I was going to be late, or could he meet me at a different station; the DCs would say it's too late, he's gone already. Or sometimes he'd bring the tribe along, and I'd finally limp off the train all knackered to find WW3 taking place in the back of the car, and XH sitting in the front with That Expression on again. When I forced a mobile phone on him, he forgot to switch it on. So I got the DCs mobile phones too, so he stopped taking them with him to the station. Sometimes my train would be cancelled. He would say that it couldn't have been, because one came in at the same time it always does and the same people got off it, except, of course, me. I wwas bewildered by this, as obviously I'd been at the station the other end and the train was ever so cancelled, and the usual bods were all grumbling with me on the platform! I wondered if he'd been confused by a train coming in from a different line. It was only after we were divorced that it suddenly struck me that in fact it might not have been true at all. He had no problem with telling bare-faced lies on occasion (eg the smoking issue, which I've grumbled about at length more than once on MN; suffice it to say I never told him he had to give up, and explained till I was blue in the face that honesty was a lot more important to me than not smoking, but he would still swear he had given up (again) even when there was a still-smoking stub by his foot and he reeked of it. The stub was "old" and the smell was my imagination).

OK, these small snapshots are a saga already, but there's a few more... When we'd been out to friends, he'd hiss at me afterwards "Do you know what you said to Aunt X?" I thought we were getting on fine, she didn't take any offence as far as I could tell. But apparently I'd said something truly awful and insulting. Actually once or twice I have said something awful or insulting, purely by mistake, and was devastated when it was pointed out to me afterwards. I suppose he must have found this entertaining because he'd make up things I was supposed to have said, or put a very strange twist on what I did say. Say, the petite woman who asked me to reach something down from a high shelf in the supermarket, saying self-deprecatingly what a pain it was being short; I complied, then indicated my very pregnant tum and said I might need her help getting things off the bottom shelf. "Do you know what you said...". Well I can only say, she didn't appear to take it as an insult. But she was only being polite. Of course. Then again, maybe it was an awful thing to say...

There were the aches and pains. Every winter he'd be afflicted with terrible discomfort. It was unbearable and one day he'd "go off a high place" (ie end it all), unless it turned out to be a fatal illness which would save him the trouble. I kept saying go to the doctor, it's probably rheumatism, it isn't life-threatening but there may be something that can help you live with it. No, no, I should just make sure he was well insured. After I'd told him we were definitely divorcing he went to the GP for a check-up, and came back all full of himself. Said several times in a row "I'm fit as a fiddle". What about the aches and pains, I asked? "What aches and pains?" he said. I said the ones you get every winter. He didn't know what I was talking about.

And don't get me started on infidelity. Just... don't. I thought for years that he was insecure. It only occurred to me when we were well on in the divorce process that he probably knew bloody well I hadn't done anything of the sort. He just knew I would launch into defending myself, explaining away the incidents he thought looked like flirting, and assuring him (as I bet my last breath he knows damned well to this day) that I am an honest person, and if I fancied someone I would tell him. All the times I cried and pleaded and assured, until eventually he kindly forgave me for something I hadn't even had the pleasure of doing! The last straw was when he told the DCs that he had heard me arranging to meet a man I'd met over the internet. What he had heard, in fact, was me chatting to a group of friends with whom I was playing an online computer game, about the game. Absolutely nothing that could be construed as arranging a meeting, however you twisted it. But the DCs didn't know who to believe, and the youngest one (9) cried.

Oh, there was that time I said we seriously had to talk about mortgaging the house. He said look, I've bought you some birdseed, and waved it in my face. I just stared at him helplessly, then went and locked myself in my room and howled for hours. I vaguely considered suicide, but we'd run out of pills. (It was the wrong sort of birdseed too.)

Long? Oh, but there's more, much, much more... some 28 years' worth of more. A (very strange) year dating, 23 years trying to make the marriage work, another 2 living together while divorcing, and the odd few things, or the few odd things, he's done in the couple of years since. One of several very liberating moments was the day I realised that it didn't matter any more what he believed, or claimed to believe. Nor did it matter whether he was doing any of this on purpose, though it would be interesting to know. I don't have to live with him any more. It may take a few more years to reclaim my sanity, but I expect to get there eventually. I twisted my brain every which way, trying to make sense of what he said, when all the time what he said in fact made no sense. Trying to understand why he felt that way about something, when either he didn't really feel it or a sane person would not. Now I have to untwist my brain and re-engage with Planet Earth.

Anyone still awake? Have I crashed the website? Did any of that make any sense? I'm not surprised if it doesn't. It doesn't to me, and I was living in it.

swallowedAfly · 04/08/2010 23:02

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ItsGraceActually · 04/08/2010 23:50

Hi, ioncewasme. I'm glad you've started writing these things down. Your first few posts gave a creeping chill, as this is very much how my 'marriage' developed. I am relieved to see others have pointed out the likelihood of deliberate manipulation happening here.

Please focus on your dissertation for now - step over piles of filthy nappies if you have to! Keep writing things down. Once your work's complete (with extension if you need it), you can invest your emotional & intellectual efforts in figuring out your marriage.

I re-read my diss a while back - couldn't believe it was written by yours truly! How did I do THAT???!!
You'll be impressed by yours, too, I promise!

IOnceWasMe · 05/08/2010 12:50

Grace - thank you! It's funny but even since the short time in starting this thread and even starting writing in a diary, I have come on a lot in my dissertation. I have done more in this week than I have done altogether in the month or so before. I spent a lot of time before thinking about things when alone instead of focussing on the job in front of me but now I have an outlet in my diary, and now this thread too, there's a lot less clutter in my mind and that's helping me to concentrate and do the work.

My parents offered to help a few months back, so the dc's and I will go to them for 2 weeks this weekend. I will then be able to work as much as I need to, and they (and my sister who lives nearby with her dc's) will be able to help with the children and I don't need to think about nursery runs, constant housework, cooking etc (obviously will do my fair share, but it will be split between more people so easier). They also have a garden which will be great as the dc's love being outdoors and running off energy and now they'll be able to do it without having to go out to the park all the time.

Annie - glad it's not just me who can write epic posts there is just so much to say though (I tried to start this thread several times before and each opening post was much, much longer than the one I eventually posted!)

I can see some parallels in what you say. The only reason he did go for couple's counselling last year (after me going on about it for the previous 2 years on and off) was because I said to him in exasperation 'Well at least counselling will be cheaper than a divorce.' It was a joke but there were was some sense of truth in it. (And I know it was mean and below the belt and I did apologise to him for it - we talked about it in the counselling sessions).

It's funny with the gifts too. Every now and then he is super sweet and appreciates me so much and brings home chocolates etc to show me that. In one discussion where I was trying to discuss our priorities, I said to him that I sometimes felt that he believes that if he does something wrong, he can buy me chocolates and that will make everything ok and he replied 'so you're angry because I buy you chocolate?' So yes, I hear you on the 'twisting'. I think this is why I have started to write down our conversations as neurotic as that sounds - I just need to work out what happens during them as I am always left feeling that I wanted to discuss X and we ended up discussing Y and I have no idea how we got there or what happened and who said what in answer to what and I'm always left feeling worse about the original issue than when we started, hence me going back for another conversation at a later date when I feel it's ok to discuss it again making me look and feel like a nag and a stuck record.

Back later - need to pick up children...

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Anniegetyourgun · 05/08/2010 18:27

Yes, write them down. Make a note of the date too. It may sound sneaky but could be very useful.

Shortly before our divorce was through XH showed me a bundle of notes he'd been keeping on me - dating back 25 years! That kind of creeped me out, to be honest.

swallowedAfly · 05/08/2010 20:31

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IOnceWasMe · 07/08/2010 07:59

Sorry - haven't been back to this thread recently. I've been getting all my reading material etc together ready to go to my parents'.

Annie - 25 years of notes about you ?! Shock That's horrible - am not surprised it creeped you out - it's a creepy thing to do and would have freaked anyone out.

And some of the things you mentioned were awful. I recognise some of them, but thankfully not all (eg, we've never had any issues with unfaithfulness, neither him 'believing' I've been unfaithful - crap of your ex to drag your dc's into that as well by the way :( seriously bloody unfair - nor me having any reason to suspect him of being unfaithful). You say you may take longer reclaiming your sanity, but in your posts you come across as very sane, rational and incredibly strong. And I am really grateful you have taken the time to reply with your thoughts and experiences (I'm grateful to everyone actually for wading through all my posts!) I have no idea what my situation is now but I have been given a lot of food for thought (to pick through more thoroughly once my dissertation is handed in and we have moved and the dc's settled a bit).

I hadn't thought of my diary as for anyone other than me (and it's also quite general, so mainly about stuff between dh and myself, but also some other things in there like money worries etc) but can see what you mean.

swallowedAfly - that makes a bit more sense :) thank you. I am focussing on the end goal - and have an extra rocket up my bum in that if I don't finish this then a) I'll have 2 failed degrees behind me and b) I have to pay back the money awarded to me - so I have both a carrot and a whip :o

Actually - what I was also going to say before was about your exH having to drop you off and pick you up etc. We don't have a car, so DH doesn't do this, but he insists on doing everything together. So, for example, my friend came recently - she's getting married soon and dd is going to be a bridesmaid. She has bought the dress but wanted to buy the shoes. We thought it would be nice to go shopping the 3 of us and make it into a nice day out. Dh insisted on coming too because as he said to me 'you know ds doesn't like it when he's away from you and he gets upset' - so we all had to go out together. This happens every single time any shopping needs to be done - we all have to go together, meaning the children get frazzled and bored and I can't concentrate on anything because I'm trying to placate the children all the time.

And the mornings the children are at nursery - the amount of times I have got them ready, shoes on etc, and said to dh (who is generally in the shower or about to step into the shower by this point) 'we're off now, see you later and have a good day' and he has said 'if you just 5 minutes then we can all go together' and if we go anyway then he gets all offended (because apparently I don't want us to spend time together) and if we wait, we can wait for anything from 5 minutes to half an hour.

I always assumed this was because of his family. They have to do everything together and it's the same when we visit. If there's any clothes shopping etc to be done then we all have to go together and nobody is allowed to split up so you're there trying to look for something with everybody waiting patiently next to you (except the children who understandably get fed up!) It does my head - I want some time on my own and that's not saying I don't want family time - just that I'd prefer family time to be actually doing something together that is fun for all of us.

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IOnceWasMe · 07/08/2010 08:04

Lots of missing words in that post - sorry. (Was simultaneously having a conversation with dd about the mumsnet smileys!)

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Anniegetyourgun · 07/08/2010 09:30

SAF, you have wounded me deeply, I don't think we can ever get over this Sad

I think the main effect of seeing the notes, once I got over the "oo-er" moment, was to realise once and for all that he's mentally ill. He said he was going to use them as evidence in court of "what I'd been up to". Aside from the fact that I'd never been "up to" anything, a court of law is not going to accept a bundle of scruffy jottings by an aggrieved ex-husband as evidence of anything. And then they went missing and of course I got accused of destroying them. (Never touched 'em; actually had intended to have a proper read through out of morbid curiosity, but they vanished first.)

I don't feel very strong right now. I know I was. I had a heavy bout of depression and it does knock you for six. Still got a brain but energy and diligence have gone AWOL for the time being. Hence too much Mumsnetting!

Funny about the family time, you see so many women complaining their husbands won't spend any time with them, refuse to come shopping etc. Sounds like yours errs too far the other way! Insisting on going shopping with one of your mates sounds a bit odd (do you get to see mates on your own very often?). OK, my brother likes shoe shopping, but it's fairly rare among blokes! Maybe, as you say, it's what he's used to, families superglued together when splitting up for a couple of hours is more practical. Or maybe it's a wee bit controlling. Sulking if you take the children to nursery without him (even if it makes you late) suggests the latter. It's nice, in theory, that he wants to come too, how can you complain about it? But presumably he knows when you're due to leave as it's routine, sees you getting ready, then he starts taking a shower and you all have to hang around till he's done. Control-freakery or thoughtlessness at the very least. My dad used to do something of the sort, but that's a whole other can of worms which I shall spare you at this time!

Then if you don't want to wait as long as it takes for the privilege of half an hour of his company, or go shopping with a bunch of fractious toddlers, it's all apocalyptic. It's not really that you don't see the need to wait half an hour for him to accompany you on a five minute journey, it's your hidden agenda of wanting to avoid spending time with him. If that ain't control it's paranoia. All behaviours that need nipping in the bud rather than pandering to, imo.

swallowedAfly · 07/08/2010 09:57

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Anniegetyourgun · 07/08/2010 10:04

Mistook me for Ioncewasme #sob#

I really should have put a Grin after the Sad, shouldn't I? So sorry to frighten you.

swallowedAfly · 07/08/2010 10:10

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IOnceWasMe · 07/08/2010 10:28

Phew - got worried there as well (as in worried that there was something else going on and there was some bad feeling somewhere, not worried because you used the wrong name!)

:o

Annie - I don't know much about depression but I hope you find you energy and 'zing' again. And I do appreciate your posts. (I love mn when I'm feeling crap - the light-hearted threads can be hilarious - some posters have a great writing style and can have me in stitches).

Regarding the shopping thing, it's funny because he follows me round like a shadow. If he were more of a Gok, then it would be fun, but he doesn't have any opinion on anything I show ('you decide, you're the boss'). Mainly though it's because of the children. They are 2 and 4 and it gets tiring trying to keep them entertained and stop them from running wild while at the same time looking around for things - I really dislike. It must be a personality thing, but I like shopping on my own, deciding how long I want to look at something for (I can sometimes spend ages deliberating about something, coming back to it etc - I don't like make snap decisions when shopping and of course it is boring for anyone who has to wait for me while I do this). When I used to go shopping on my own, I would even go back to the same shop several times between shops to look at the same item, while I was trying to decide (this could also possibly be because I've never been rich and always had to be careful with money and on a strict budget!) This is unthinkable in dh's eyes.

I don't really have many friends here - a big reason I want to move back. I have a few uni friends but they are younger and childfree so it's hard to meet up outside of uni time because I always have the children with me. My friend who came to visit lives a few hours away and I have only seen her 3 times since we moved here a year ago (this was the 3rd time). I have one other 'mum' friend who lives the other side of the city, but again, when we have met up (which isn't that often - perhaps every other month), dh comes along too. Other than that, I don't have any other social life (not that I want to go out all the time and lead a wild life, but I do really miss meeting up with friends for coffee etc). This is exactly how his family function so I think it is instilled in him somewhere. Again, it's a clash of how we like to do things.

Nipping in the bud - too right. I need to develop a thicker skin!

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swallowedAfly · 07/08/2010 10:39

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Anniegetyourgun · 07/08/2010 10:42

Mm, cake... Don't worry SAF, I love you as much as ever Smile. Nearly as much as I love coffee and chocolate cake, and that's saying something, believe me.

OP, of course I meant it's a bit odd for him to insist on going shopping with your mates, not that it's odd for you to want to - hope you got that. I notice that even though he isn't involved in the shopping decisions, you're the one who ends up running round after the children (including the one he was supposed to be at home looking after Hmm). This surely slows everything down?

IOnceWasMe · 07/08/2010 10:48

Well either he says it's to help me with the dc's on public transport or he'll do the whole hurt 'you don't want me there?' routine. Last time it happened was ridiculous - it was during the world cup and I arranged to go to my friend's so our children could splash in the paddling pool (she has a garden). Dh said he wanted to be back at 7pm to watch the football. I said to him 'why don't just the children and myself go and then you can have the afternoon to yourself to catch up with your things and be in time for watching the football?' but he got offended and said we just had to be back by 7pm or 7.30pm at the latest.

It's hard to know when I am putting my foot down as a 'right' and when I am being too controlling and dominant. This is why I want counselling on my own - as stupid as it sounds, I need someone else (a professional) to tell me what sort of person I am and what is normal and what isn't. I can't seem to figure it out myself :(

(excuse all my typos - I am trying to multi-task - apparently proofreading isn't one of those tasks though!)

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