Narcisstic Personality Disorder

[Mobby]

I believe my SIL has this. I've believed it for many years.

My problem is that I see her several times a week.

Please, help.
How do I deal with my emotions after she has left. She leaves me drained, annoyed, angry, irritated.
She has just been here for 2 hours. She popped in for a cup of tea and to see my children. This means she basked in the childrens supposed love for her for 1 minute (ie, asked him if they had missed her and made them hug her) then talked about herself for 1 hour 59 minutes.

Its not even worth me trying to participate in the conversation.

To top it all, the one time the conversation was turned around to something in my life was when DD said "do you like mummy's new hair colour" and she LAUGHED. Yet, when she has her hair done she says "my hair is stunning ISN'T IT?" and being the polite person I am I nod along and know I'll be forever quoted as saying how stunning her hair is.

I could give so many examples of her behaviour.

But the problem is me, I should somehow switch off, not allow her to drain my energy?

The option of telling her fuck off is not realistic. She's in my life and if there was an argument between her manipulation would then cause me further problems.

For weeks now I've been decreasing her visits. But its still too much.

I know there has been a thread in the past on NPD so if I'm posting in the wrong place can someone point me to the correct/current thread. Many thanks.

Oh dear, poor you.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you the only way to deal with a Narcissist is to get them the fuck out of your life. However, you say this isn't an option so you'll need all your Zen-like calming strategies!

First and foremost, remember you are not dealing with a sane, rational human being here. Wave a sad farewell to any hopes of a healthy, reciprocal relationship with her. You don't exist in any real fashion for her (neither does anybody else), so get used to the idea. You're a mirror for her own self-fantasy. To make her visits tolerable, be that mirror.

You probably have a good idea of what she needs from you - admiration is a given, but for what? Her appearance, obviously. Anything else? Competence at work, spirituality (laughably, my sister has that need), popularity, creativity? Lavish her with compliments as soon as you see her (this will 'feed' her so she doesn't go into rant mode). Ask for an update on something, that will allow her to tell you how great she is. Don't offer any of your own info; she doesn't care about you or anyone else. If she remembers to ask, just say "fine thanks".

It's about making yourself an 'empty vessel' for her own brilliance. If, by any chance, it goes wrong (and anything can make it go wrong!) and she rants/rages/cries, make yourself even more empty - the trick is to become a sort of ghostly statue, remember that NOTHING she says or does is about you, and wait quietly for it to finish.

I know. It's a bugger! There's a lot of them about, so you may as well acquire the relevant skills ... and be thankful you don't have to see her more often

I'm seeing the whole set of Narc relatives this weekend, so will be thinking of you!

Here you go: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/923303-Narcissitic-Personality-Disorder-Part-2

Thank you for your response. Its a comfort to know someone knows exactly where I'm coming from with this. Your description that I'm a mirror for her self-fantasy is spot-on. The only time she's interested in something is if it reflects good on her.

I have probably already adopted the empty vessel you suggest, I haven't told her anything about myself in yonks. I've never tried actually complimenting her but I'm going to try that now, it might give a different spin on her visits.

I wish I could switch off completely though, and not listen to her. Her conversation today was mainly around the latest married man she's sleeping and how he is going to counselling with his wife yet telling her how wonderful she is. Its very hard to listen when she's repeatedly shitting on people's lives, but believing there is nothing wrong as she is deserving.

You have a whole set of NPD relatives? Oh gosh, I don't know what to say except you have my sympathies.

Thank you for the link. I will take a look at that thread.

Cheers for the sympathy, I'm going to need it!!

I wish I'd known about this stuff when I was working for a Narc boss AND married to one (at least it wasn't the same guy, but that's very cold comfort). If you're right about her - and it sounds as if you are - 'feeding' her as soon as you see her should help a lot

I really do sympathise. May I remind you, you deserve a VERY GOOD TREAT after each successful visit?

Could you try watching her as if she is a TV programme (a comedy?) Or as if you are a psychologist making notes on a patient? Or a journalist interviewing a seriously deluded celebrity? Or secretly compete with yourself to give the most surreal response possible to what she says?

If you really can't escape, it might help to play mental games with yourself to make it as bearable as possible. And I like Grace's idea of giving yourself a treat afterwards!

GettingAGrip probably has some useful things to add to Grace's excellent post. Hopefully she will see this.

And Grace is right in the sad fact that you have to wave goodbye to any hope of a healthy, loving, reciprocal sisterly relationship.

Don't set yourself up for frustration and resentment by trying to tell her anything about you or your life or desires or problems because she just aint interested. And if she feigns 'interest' for a nano second the advice you get back will only be critical or belittling.

If she starts causing serious grief - say, she starts criticising or picking on your children as they get older and more fiesty - or you feel you just don't want to see her, then just cut her out and don't feel guilty about it. Hard to do when it seems alien and makes you feel cruel (because you have normal human feelings!) but honestly, these people suck the life out of you and make you feel rubbish. Why let them?

They are essentially incredibly boring non-people who lead destructive lives and feed on knocking others down to make themselves feel better. They are angry toddlers in adult bodies.

The idea of a treat is super. I'm already thinking Lindor chocolate.

I could look at her as a comedy or something along those lines, that might work. I do see the humour in it and I have a few friends who piss themselves laughing when I relay the stories she tells me.

I have also thought about keeping a book and writing down her nonsense after each visit. To write it down might get it out of my head IYKWIM. No intentions of ever reading it back, unless she ends up in court for something and it can be used in evidence against her.

She has fallen out with my children on a few occassions. Sadly she's let them down too - promised stuff that didn't materialise. She also does stuff like not talk to the children if they reject her attention for example.

But I have fantasised that she does something major to upset the children. Not because I want them upset of course but because I want an excuse to have her out of our lives.

Also, is alcoholism common with NPD? Its quite clear she drinks too much but I don't know if she's an alcoholic because I'm not with her enough and can't believe anything she tells me.

I have a narcissist in my life. I can't do the compliments thing as it makes me feel ill. I just try and switch off and take myself to a different place whilst singing la la la la in my head. I never bother disagreeing with anything though, it's pointless.

Actually just finding out about narcissism was a huge help. Before then I'd tried to make things right and couldn't understand why it always went wrong or what I could do to make things right. Understanding about NPD just made everything fall into place - I knew it wasn't me, and I stopped trying to fix the unfixable.

saintly you have a point regarding finding out about NPD. When I first met my SIL I'd never heard of NPD - I read about it one day in the paper rushed straight home and googled. And there it was, the answer I'd been looking for - she ticked all the boxes. Every now and then I have a read up on the subject and its a reminder/reassurance that I'm not alone and I didn't make her up! (There are times when I doubt my own mind KWIM!)

oh i know exactly what you mean. You end up feeling like you're going mad.

Argh I feel for you, my BiL deffo is one! He says things like 'look at you..looking at me' to girlfriends. I hate him, he even stopped talking to DP for 2 months after DP dId well professionally speaking.
Also, when he was in hospital abroad his mum went over to pay hospital bills/take care of him for a month,spent thhooooousands he didn't even send her a birthday card (or mothers day,. Xmas..)
You really do have to learn to laugh and have absolutely minimal contact.
Or get her to move abroad?

My SIL also thinks people are looking at her. She walked into a restuarant recently to meet someone and relayed the story to me later that a table of people near the door looked at her as she walked in. She said 'its nice to know people are looking at me and appreciating what they see'. A normal person would wonder if they had loo paper stuck to their shoe or something.

Another thing, is it normal for a NPD to NOT boast about things that are actually true. She has done a couple of interesting things in her life and met some famous people - in fact was on first name terms at one point (through her job) with someone who is ridiculously famous and admired. But never mentions it. Has never told me this. I've heard these stories through my DH.

Is she more comfortable in the fantasy world I wonder? Is this a normal trait?

Sorry to go on, its actually the first time I've really talked about it (other than to my mum who I is my usual person to sound off to!)!

Oh I feel your pain too, my mother is has NPD, i only realised it when someone on here pointed me in the right direction when I had been ranting about her.

I havent got any good advice, my mum is 3 hours away so I see her as little as possible and limit phone calls, she makes constant comments about it last weeks was 'well when I die at least you wont miss the phone calls we have, because they are so few and far between'

sadly now I just view her as a sad lady, someone with no interest in anything other than herself, she cuts people out who dont toe the line of being 100% interested in her.

I also think she would love to be ill, i mean really ill, how sad is that. ZShe is forever ringing me with headaches (brain tumour) bad stomach (cancer), pain in legs (cancer) etc etc.

I'm not sure if my problem is the same kind of thing, but I have a son who is in his 20's and feels, having been bullied for his supposed weird appearance at school and uni, that even now, people 'look at him funny' and don't treat him like they treat attractive people, for instance when he is in a meeting or doing a presentation. I know he has suffered a lot in his life, but so have we as parents - lots of therapy later, he still seems to be obsessed that ugly people are not rated, and because he's been told so often he is ugly, he believes it. I try to keep reasoning things through and explaining that personality, smiling and confidence is what attracts people, but I am feeling totally worn down by this, as well as feeling I will never get through to him, but I can't not keep trying because I love him and he is a very decent man but the situation is just so so sad. Do any other mums have this going on in their lives too and if so, how do they deal with it and does it ever come right?

Sorry I think I've messed up the thread here - I think there is prob an element of NPD with my son, but there MUST be parents of grown up kids who are also feeling desperate cos these kids did not manage to handle harsh remarks at school and they've got left feeling its all their fault cos they've been told endlessly they are so unattractive etc. My son is not in the least ugly but prob should have reacted strongly when this began, when he was 5. He was just shocked and didn't understand at that time.
I've spoken to at least 2 other mums who are despairing cos their sons feel scared that they don't look good enough to fit into society, having had similar stuff said to them at school/work etc. These lads ask us for advice now and again - I just wish I knew what to say to really make a difference - apart from 'grow up' which isn't really effective - I know cos I've tried it.

Nordana, Personality Disorders are serious psychiatric conditions in which the sufferer has no real sense of identity. There is a strong school of thought that they may be triggered off by childhood bullying, neglect, exclusion and other forms of abuse - but an unhappy childhood does not mean the person will grow up to be psychiatrically disturbed.

Your son seems to have quite distressing issues with his self-esteem, but I don't know whether his problems go even deeper. Feeling ugly in early life is certainly very upsetting, and can leave permanent damage. Telling him to perk up won't help, as you've found out. He could probably do with some counselling, and maybe a course of antidepressants to help him to feel better about life.

Your first port of call would be your GP, I think. Try to be gentle on him, and compliment him on areas where he is fantastic!

Sorry, I missed the part where you said he's had lots of therapy. Does he not feel it helped him at all? Does he, in fact, feel superior to more 'attractive' people?

Thanks so much for this. He's had years of therapy, (still having it) anti-depressants for a while but they don't seem to help. Its more like Post Traumatic Stress with flashbacks - at school some awful stuff happened to him and he didn't tell us at the time cos he didn't want to worry us and he felt it was his fault anyway! (It wasn't... ). EMDR makes him feel worse - mentally re-living the horrors apparently doesn't get rid of them. He is a really good, caring, kind guy, and he's built a brilliant business, but he just can't seem to beat the feeling that people find him ugly and this makes him very nervous in social situations. Its like Catch 22. He's joined a self help group, and he's trying hard, but we've watched him struggle with this for years, making progress but oh so slowly.
I don't think he feels superior to other people, he says he just wants to feel normal and accepted, to see girls eyeing him up in supermarkets and not turning away. (I don't know if he imagines this rejection or not). He loves women, he's funny and sexy and thoughtful, has had a girlfriend for years who he likes and who he's helped a lot with her own shyness issues and her studies.

I guess its just that I'm writing this as a Mum whose heart sinks with weariness when he rings sometimes sounding low, because nothing I say ever works, indeed he usually talks and doesn't listen anyway. The GP said 'all you can do is just be there for him' and of course I am and will be, but I've been getting so downhearted recently with the lack of progress. However, on the bright side, some days are good and the self esteem is there (when work goes well or someone pays him a compliment) but he is so easily knocked down again that its frightening. I'll do more of the complimenting and being gentle you suggest.

He had a very loving home life with us but his elder brother (ADHD)gave him an emotionally hard time, though we did our best to be balanced and fair for both of them all the way through.
I just wondered if he was suffering from NPD (which I hadn't read about before) cos he minds so massively much what people think of him, or might think of him.

Oh dear, I do feel for him - and you! He's fortunate that you understand what he's going through. It must have been awful for a small child to feel so helpless at that time; with your other DS needing so much attention, maybe he tried not to 'burden' you?

I was quite similar at his age. I thought of myself as fat, deformed, ugly, etc - which wasn't the case. I had a kind of dual vision of myself: the 'real me' was ugly but, with lashings of makeup, hair care, clothes and so on, I knew I looked all right. It must be harder for a man, who has fewer options for 'disguise' - though even that took its toll. I had a few psychotic episodes in my early twenties, which I now realise were expressions of this duality I (thought I) was living with.

It's ironic that I'm only now feeling good about myself - I'm 55 and really do look the way I used to think I did!

I've arrived at my better state through inner child work. It definitely does look very "woo" from the outside: basically, it's just one way of learning to love yourself and to be forgiving - of the world at large and of yourself. I really don't know whether this kind of approach would help your son, but it does look as though he needs a kinder form of therapy. Perhaps he's seeing the wrong person.

If he feels he might be suffering from a personality Disorder - from the little I know, it's unlikely to be NPD - he needs to ask for a specialist in that field. Diagnosis is complex. There are reasonably successful treatments for most of them (though not NPD) and, of course, self-knowledge is empowering in itself.

Good luck to both of you!

Nordana...there are several different kinds of personality disorder...google them as there are many helpful sites. Generally though, people do not have just one PD, but a combination of them, although having said that, they can fall into certain camps....eg antisocial, narcissistic, etc....

He sounds as though he needs some particular, expert help, not just 'counselling'. If he is aware that he has this problem then he is in a good place to change things.

The problem with NPD is that the person who is afflicted with this PD thinks that there is nothing wrong with them, so why would they need any help to get better? They are perfect already!

Moby...the only way you will get any relief from your N-SIL is to not see her. you cannot have a normal conversation with them as they have no idea how to be normal.

They are stuck at 2 years old, have no notion of anyone except themselves, and absolutely no self-awareness or empathy.

It was when my N sibling had a go at my daughter in my house on my daughter's birthday that I finally snapped after 50 years of putting up with their crap and threw them out of my house.

I am afraid that I have got very hard towards all my Ns in my old age. Both my parents, most of my extended family, my sibling and my ex-H and his family are all Ns of one kind or another. I see my mother still, but I have never told her anything at all, and am very neutral and vague when I do see her. She is very elderly now, so I will not have to see her for much longer I don't suppose, so can cope with her. I do my duty by her, but have no love for her.

your SIL has no interest in you as a person, she is using you for supply. Why do you have to see her so often? Why do you have to see her at all?

I just think now..life is too short to put up with crap.

Sorry just read my post back and it sounds very unhelpful!

The thing is ....you are not dealing with a normal human being here with all the normal human attributes...Ns have cognitive difficulties caused by the non-development of their brains as children. There is also the possibility that genetic causes are at work here too.

Ns cannot bear the reality of themselves so they construct another reality...it is impossible for them to face their real self in the real world, so they have to do everything in their power to keep the false constructed self alive.

This is usually because their reality as small children was not nice....abuse, smothering (as in helicopter parenting), spoiling, being ignored, just general bad parenting can all cause NPD and other PDs to emerge. Their real world is not good, so they construct another , perfect world.

Their cognitive difficulties mean that they miss the point spectacularly , and they can be very stupid.

They can throw horrendous tantrums, and use tears as weapons...just like a 2 year old will do.

There is no way you can have any kind of realationship with them, and indeed you will be dragged down and sent insane by them eventually....be careful about the access to your children...

They will store up your secrets and feelings and use them against you at a later date.

ItsGraceagain was spot on of course with her advice...but she was being light-hearted...actually they can drive you to suicide if you let them. They certainly mess with your mind.

my advice is to cut contact totally. your life will be improved by 100000 %.

Everytime I read these NPD threads I recognise me exH so clearly. Yet he continues to 'surprise' me at how emotionally damaging he can be.

I left him nearly a year ago, but only moved over the road as it was the easiest way to get away. Have shared custody up til now, but eldest DD has been diagnosed with anorexia and is in an ED unit seriously ill.

I moved with the understanding he would move in next couple of years further away, he has large family home, mine is smaller and so makes more sense he leaves huge house first. Have spent last year decorating and making my new house lovely.

DD has made it very clear she wants to get away, she is refusing to see her Dad and the unit know there is an issue there.

She asked me to have a final conversation with ExH about whether he was moving. He said not in forseeable future, despite knowing that both I and the oldest 2 DCs want some space between houses, and that his DD1 is seriously ill and refusing to see him, so surely he should be trying anything to help her!

Anyway, put my house on the market, I'm devastated as I've spent so much on it and its gorgeous but know I have to get away and give all the family some space from him.

All community are appalled that I'm moving again and angry at him for making me move again. He got sniff of this and wham, house is on market and he's looking to move. He only cares what the neighbours think, not what his DD does? I feel physically sick that this was his reaction.

Also, has been for first family therapy session at ED unit, on his own as DD wouldn't attend, and wept his way through it. They appear impressed that he's willing to work through the issues, again I feel sick as I've been there and done that soooo many times. But I can't accuse him of having NPD to them can I, they will just think I'm being vindictive.

Oh, I've highjacked thread and probably should post elsewhere, just feel so overwhelmingly lonely on how to deal with this man. He is destroying me and now his DD.

feelingpositivemum, I think you are doing the right thing by getting away. Don't wait for him to sell his house - he could mess you around over the sale for years. He sounds like an absolute horror. It is entirely unfair and unreasonable of him to keep hanging around your lives like this, but he needs you to validate him. You have to turn your back on him completely, and support your DD1 as she has obviously already decided this is the best course of action for her.

If you love your house, maybe you could rent it out for a while and with any luck he will leave the area at some point and you can return then.

feeling positive...this is exactly the modus operandi of a Narc.

They say the first thing that comes into their empty heads, and then change their minds down the line. All my Ns have done this. It drives you insane in the end.

They then deny they ever said they would do such a thing, and you are left feeling like murdering them.

My N mother does this, as does my ex-H. Even over trivial things.

You cannot engage with him about this. As I said upthread, there is no way you can have a normal conversation with them. They are not of this planet.

To get away you have to move yourself, sadly. your next house can be made lovely.

The Ns also are very concerned with what others think of them, so they will do anything to keep their reputations as wonderful people. My ex-HN would do anything for anyone in our small village. His family were thought of as wonderful, generous people. The reality was that they are vicious, nasty, small minded Narcs.

Another trait is that they cannot instigate anything by themselves, they are just incapable of it. They copy others , but often get it wrong as they just have no idea how to be a human being.

It's possible that your ex has realised that he is being seen as unreasonable, and so has put his house on the market to improve his reputation, and also to copy you.

On the other hand, this mind-changing and procrastination they do is also a control mechanism of course.

After their supply ups and leaves them they can get a Narc rage, which means they are going to be even more obstructive and nasty.

This is my ex-HN...he is the nastiest person along with his father. His true personality has come out since I left. When I was still there he was nasty, but not so overtly.

Keep posting....there are sadly many of us who have been through this. We are still here and kicking, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to know what you are dealing with. And you have to be realistic as to what you can expect from your ex...which , of course, is basically nothing.

feelingpositive...also I can guarantee that your daughter will improve if you get this N out of your lives.

My DD had all sorts of stomach problems ...this that and the other...since we left she has been fine...my son was turning into a mini version of my in-laws, and couldn't speak to me with out sneering...he is now a delight to be with and his school work which was dreadful has improved to the extent that he got three As and a B for his AS levels. He has always been totally dreadful at school.

The kids see something is wrong and it affects them. When you have escaped there is peace in the house, and this improves the kids' peace of mind, and everything else flows from that.