Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Narcisstic Personality Disorder

39 replies

Mobby · 20/07/2010 16:41

I believe my SIL has this. I've believed it for many years.

My problem is that I see her several times a week.

Please, help.
How do I deal with my emotions after she has left. She leaves me drained, annoyed, angry, irritated.
She has just been here for 2 hours. She popped in for a cup of tea and to see my children. This means she basked in the childrens supposed love for her for 1 minute (ie, asked him if they had missed her and made them hug her) then talked about herself for 1 hour 59 minutes.

Its not even worth me trying to participate in the conversation.

To top it all, the one time the conversation was turned around to something in my life was when DD said "do you like mummy's new hair colour" and she LAUGHED. Yet, when she has her hair done she says "my hair is stunning ISN'T IT?" and being the polite person I am I nod along and know I'll be forever quoted as saying how stunning her hair is.

I could give so many examples of her behaviour.

But the problem is me, I should somehow switch off, not allow her to drain my energy?

The option of telling her fuck off is not realistic. She's in my life and if there was an argument between her manipulation would then cause me further problems.

For weeks now I've been decreasing her visits. But its still too much.

I know there has been a thread in the past on NPD so if I'm posting in the wrong place can someone point me to the correct/current thread. Many thanks.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 23/07/2010 11:04

Feeling positive,

I would also echo what Gettingagrip has written here.

My N BIL has not talked to any of us for nearly three years now because he thinks that he has been "slighted".

I look at his family and they are all Ns in one form of another - the three of them co-exist together in very their dysfunctional ways. You cannot have any meaningful, what am I saying, well infact ANY sort of relationship with a N because they will drive you to distraction.

Nordana · 23/07/2010 11:05

ItsGraceActually - thanks so much for what you wrote - it really helps. The awful thing is, I used to feel just like him too (just like you describe about you) - and I can feel his pain just like I used to feel it at his age. But he doesn't want to hear any of that stuff like 'oh I do understand, I used to feel like that'. So I wonder if he is not able to empathise? I ask myself all the time if I was too caring, too warm a mum, too supportive, too praising, and now the world is a harder place because of that, like he needs a tougher shell and I didn't help him get one.
I've just had him on the phone, he felt he couldn't cope with going out today, he had a bad experience with some people saying stuff about how he looked the other day and its knocked him back yet again. He's waiting for an appt to see his counsellor so I asked him if she'd ever mentioned working on the inner child and he said she had - so maybe he'll ask about that again. So thanks so much for your suggestion.
Gettingagrip - thanks too very much for your helpful ideas. I know he knows he has got a problem and he longs for help, but he says he's confused by how people treat him. He does business on the phone and people are fine with him, he says, and then he goes to a meeting with them for the first time and he feels they take one look at him and he can sense at once that their attitude changes. They start to look away, talk to him like he's stupid, etc. He says my generation don't understand how much it matters to his about how you look, and therefore whether you are accepted or not. I honestly don't think he is ugly, but I do think if HE feels he's ugly, he comes across as wary and rejected and nervous and people pick up on that. (One or two people have said he looks like Ronan Keating - so quite a sensitive looking face - I'd agree with that). I've said that so many times but he keeps chipping away at me to say he is ugly and I can't because it would be a lie.
I was feeling really down about it this morning after his call, then I read what you both wrote and it really helped. Then he rang again and said he'd talked to his girlfriend too (and she'd obviously helped) and he was going to eat something and lose himself in a DVD. Lucky he now runs his own company and can take the odd day out like this! By the end of the day maybe he'll be a bit more together and ready to face tomorrow.
Thanks so much anyway both of you - you've helped me a lot and prob him as well at the same time

feelingpositivemum · 23/07/2010 11:49

Thank you everyone for replying, I know that I have to move away and remove him from my life, as much as possible. I admire my DD for being brave enough to do what I should have done a long time ago! It's a shame she has had to do what she has done to get there though.

Gettingagrip - I love your empty heads description, that so true. The changing minds, denying he said it, always talking and behaving as if he's some super dad whilst driving us all mad. I can see how some people feel like suicide, I sometimes drive past large solid walls and think, I could just put my foot down and end this hideousness now. All over in a bang... but obviously wouldn't for my DC's sake.

Although he seems to be telling people that DD won't talk to him, why? Isn't he embarrassed? He has told mutual friends that this is hard for him and the unit have said that it may be something to do with his past behaviour. He has acknowledged that he is and has been controlling, but I don't think he gets the enormity of it at all.

Anyway, he's gone off today to visit SIL and BIL for lunch, even though only a few days ago my SIL had said she's had enough and wasn't coming to stay with him on Sunday as first planned as she couldn't handle him anymore. His confidence/ obliviousness is mind blowing.

Gettingagrip · 23/07/2010 12:48

Feelingpositive...no of course he is not embarrassed. He has no FEELINGS. Everything that comes out of his mouth is a complete load of B***ks.

He says that he is wonderful to everyone else becuase he has to support his false self.

He will manipulate the professionals so that he looks like the good guy.

If you now say to your self every time you have to have any contact with him, or every time you hear what he has been saying...he cannot see you and your children as separate beings ...you ARE him to all intents and purposes for him...AND you have dared to leave..this is the cardinal sin for an N.

He doesn't get the enormity of it because to him there is nothing wrong with his behaviour.

you have to get your head around the fact that all that matters is HIM.

You cannot ever understand what is in his head...so just stop trying.

I am sorry you feel like the driving into the wall thing...I had that and am now in psychotherapy.

Have a look at some sites about NPD. To save yourself and your children you MUST disengage from him. Leave your SIL to deal with him as she wants....her dealings with him are her business.

No-one believed me about my ex's carry on until he revealed himself in court, as he was so arrogant he thought he was god's gift. They are very stupid, and he will slip up at some point. Arrogance and stupidity make for careless talk.

I hope you can get away for your and your children's sakes.

feelingpositivemum · 23/07/2010 14:00

I know, I know you are absolutely right and I am getting there.

Reading these NPD threads is very useful and help me to focus on staying away. And if only the housing market would pick up.....

Miggsie · 23/07/2010 14:13

feelingpositive...having dealt with an N granny and later, a friend married an NPD man, I can only say, you can't worry about why they do or say things...becuase they are effectively so cut off from "normal" they don't have ANY of the kind of thoughts you have. They don't even question themselves or worry about others, they can't do it. For all intents and purposes they are blocks of wood, simulations of poeple who copy others but ultimately have no empathy or any "normal" personality traits.

Thus an N will not bat an eyelid telling their 6 yo grand child that their parents are horrible, they think telling the world their wife is a lesbian which broke up their marriage is fine. Even though nornal people would not say these things as they are untrue and malicious. N's can't see that, they really can't. Other poeple are like toys they pick up and throw away, there is no relationship at all, they are not capable.

It is a very painful process to find someone you are clse to is like this, you have to mentally disengage to save your own sanity.

As getagrip says, eventualy N's slip up, as they don't have normal feelings of restraint or embarassment, my friend's husband made a complete mess of his divorce hearing as he started ranting about how his wives had been lesbians, all women were unreliable....he had no concept of how not normal he was, while the court just sat there in shocked embarassment.

Right now, you need to oncentrate on your own mental health. He won't change, so you need to rebuild your self confidence and get yourself away.

feelingpositivemum · 23/07/2010 14:39

Thank you Miggsie, I do need to do that and will. I will continue trying to sell my house and help my DD get better. Thank you all for your wise and experienced words.

toomanystuffedbears · 23/07/2010 17:45

Hi Mobby,
My sister is N and I have not seen her since Christmas '07. (Sounds like an introduction to an AA meeting, doesn't it? )

I will try hard to not get started on anectdotes because it is so hard to stop...

I can not find the post that recommended trying to give compliments as a way of dealing with a N. I would say only try this tactic if your contact is maximum a few hours, once or twice a year (like holidays).

The danger here is that compliments will build her already over developed sense of superiority. Like one drop of water giving life to 10 million mosquitoes, instantly.

Helping her self-esteem is not so bad in itself (and is generally a nice thing to do for our friends), but it is not the complete picture. And that is the tricky part about Narcissism-you must keep the entire perspective clearly in view...If you build up her superioriy, the rest of the perspective is based on the now irrefutable fact that you are subordinate and inferior to her. She is a queen holding court.

The advice from the others-Grace, Attila, GaGrip, Unlikely...(sorry if I left anyone out) is excellent. It reveals the truth of the circumstances: to a narcissist other people simply do not exist. Other people are not competent, intelligent, or relevant, and do not have feelings.

Long ago on another thread the N's relationship was described as "Teddy Bear Love"... people are an inanimate object to use as a prop in the N's life. When the tea party is over and you are kicked under the bed and forgotten for 8 months
you just have no say in the matter, no venue for protest.

If you do protest,or simply participate in the conversation, expect any number of the varieties of disrespect-dismissiveness, ridicule, one-up-manship, last word, a dissertation of proof otherwise...you get the picture.

Sorry this is so long, Moddy. If your sil is talking just about herself, that is probably a bearable situation. Knod, 'um-humm', 'oh really' your way through it.

You need to have a boundary in place in your mind when to severly diminish contact:
Does she inspect your home?
Does she sniff your children to see if they are clean?
Does she say, when she is leaving, "It looks like you have everything under control, so I will leave you to it."?

When you became pg, did she apply for maternity leave to take care of your baby?
Did she tell your teenage dd that if she/dd had an unwanted pg, she/dd was to come to her first?

Does she spend a lot of money on gifts/tickets/Christmas for you/your dc to create a sense of obligation-when "thank you" is not enough grovelling gratitude?

You didn't mention gifts, but that was one of my sister's main mechanisms. Such generosity (!) but it was really buying a license to put us in the role of subordinate because we 'owed' her.

Same for "she would do anything for anyone"-those favors/rescues create a social debt of being owed. She thrives on it so much she brokers the favors so her balance sheet is never quite paid up.

Sorry so long ...I'm still recovering .

Mobby · 27/09/2010 08:23

Sorry its taken me a while to get back to this thread I started.

I just wanted to thank everyone who responded - it really does help to talk it through with people who understand and can give me new insights.

I think the idea that I'm dealing with a toddler really, really helps. I now see how her behaviour is so immature at times. For example, I suffer with a bad back at times - if my back is playing me up I'll walk a bit wonky. I've noticed if ever this happens she'll start limping. It is so ridiculous I have to laugh!

Also to answer the questions about gifts - yes, yes, yes - she showers us and the kids with gifts and its all so we feel obliged to 'owe' her. She feels the world owes her anyway.

And the maternity leave thing - she booked to come and see us for a week when my DD was due. Apparently it was the only week she could get off work. My DD went overdue so she missed her completely ha ha ha. But I think she fully intened to 'save the day' and do everything for the newborn.

Anyway, I've come to some sort of conclusion over her visits. DH has started working from home 2 days a week. I'm making sure I'm only available for her to pop in on the days he is around. And I make sure he joins us for a cup of tea. It usually ends in friction because he argues everything she says - but its better than me being on my own with her each time.

And it means that on occassions when it just me and her it becomes more bearable.

Thanks again.

OP posts:
tb · 30/09/2010 15:08

For anyone that has to deal with anyone with npd there is absolutely no point in trying to rationalise why they do the things that they do.

A very kind counsellor once told me that I would go literally mad trying to work out why my npd-m behaved the way she did. She probably has borderline personality disorder, too!

mathanxiety · 30/09/2010 18:14

Joining the party a little late here, but anyhow:

Mobby -- Yes, alcoholism and other addictions are frequently found in Ns.

wrt not boasting or mentioning the famous acquaintance -- maybe this is something she is saving up for the right moment? When you've gone to tea with the Queen, she will swamp you with stories of whatever famous person she knows and you will manage to get two or three words in about the corgis and how funny Prince Philip was...

Feelingpositivemum: I also have a DD who refuses to talk to her N father. She cut him off when she was 15 and I have supported her in her decision. My exH tells people about the situation as a way of garnering sympathy, painting me and DD as a pair of vindictive hags, and contrasting himself as the ever loving blah blah blah. Of course, he does not mention what sparked the decision of DDs (horrible physical mistreatment of DD, bullying, raging at her over the years, threatening to destroy homework she had spent hours doing one particular day when the whole mess boiled over). Since he sees no difference between the children and other adults as far as how he treats people, I think he honestly doesn't understand that others will not judge DD as brutally as he wants them to in this situation. Everyone else has expectations of behaviour of teens and of adults that are distinct: adults are expected to be adults, while teens are allowed a little indulgence in most people's minds. ExH's calculations on this score also fall apart because DD was an exceptional student and nice person who never put a foot wrong in school -- his attempts to place any blame on her for the development of the standoff are very see-through to everyone who knows anything about DD1, and those who don't know her don't matter to me or to her.

If you can show a pattern of your ex following you from place to place and moving in too close for comfort, can you get a restraining order of some kind, as this is a form of stalking? I would trust the professionals in the ED unit to make the correct judgement of your ex, but I would also be tempted to tell it like it is to them if you get a chance. The family dynamics involved when one member develops anorexia are complex but also fairly predictable. DD1 didn't develop anorexia, but she was very food-averse for many years, and oppositional when it came to eating, fwiw.

Nordana I feel you need to step back a lot from your DS and let him muddle through. I have the sense that his constant worrying about his appearance is really an inarticulate way of expressing some other insecurity, and really it's the job of his therapists to help him sort himself out, not yours. The trauma he experienced in school has clearly wounded him deeply and shook his self-esteem and confidence, and perhaps affected his relationship with you too, if he couldn't tell you what he was going through at the time. This is the work of therapists though, not you, as he is a grown man now. Have you experienced any counselling yourself to deal with the fact that he didn't confide with you at the time? Do you think your close involvement with him and his problems now is an attempt to compensate for being kept out of the loop when he was younger? Do you feel guilt you mention he may have been suffering at home with the older brother with ADHD?

Maybe he could be encouraged to try volunteering with people who are down on their luck, or mentoring children who are facing obstacles, just in order to get outside of himself for a bit, gain a sense of perspective, feel he is making a positive difference in the lives of people who are in difficulty?

I also think that trying to emphasise the things that he is good at, the good personality etc., when he brings up the problem he has with accepting his appearance can only have the effect of refocusing him on that one aspect of his life. It comes across as overcompensating and has the double negative effect of making the real positives less believable.

I would be inclined to ask him if he thinks he should have any particular kind of physical appearance (does he deserve something perfect?), and what exactly he wants to do about it to change things if he's that unhappy and he thinks change might be possible. There is the facial hair option for men, or even plastic surgery if he thinks that would do the trick.

I also think your comment on Ronan Keating was telling while RK isn't exactly my cup of tea, I do think he's good looking but I would not describe his features as 'sensitive', and I wonder if this is how in fact you see your DS, and if this has become a self-fulfilling prophecy that you have communicated to him that he is sensitive; sensitivity can have real drawbacks in the world of boys and men.

I suppose what I'm saying essentially is to shrug and say 'So what?' when your DS complains about his appearance or sees the glass half empty; a man who has his own business, a steady GF, suave, blond, boyish good looks like Ronan Keating (note, not 'sensitive face', you can reframe things), who comes out of a business meeting thinking people have not warmed to him because of his appearance might need behaviour therapy, just to change his thought patterns and examine his assumptions.

Oh yes, Mobby gifts and tying people to you with material things. money this was and is exMIL's M.O., also exH's... Watch out for the way your SIL treats your DCs. Children are defenseless and very vulnerable to N's in their lives, because of the highs and lows involved. They can really, really wound a child by a remark. Make sure you 'debrief' the children if they ever spend time with this SIL, and deal right there and then with any things she has said or done that have left the children or you (you seem to have excellent N-radar) feeling a bit upset.

gingerkirsty · 30/09/2010 18:27

Mobby you've had lots of good advice on here, I have nothing to add but your OP made me think of - have you seen it before?

Your SIL sounds like a comedy character, as NicknameTaken says - hope this video cheers you up and gives you something to smirk vindictively smile secretly about next time you have to endure see her. Grin

Mummiehunnie · 01/10/2010 13:03

If you want to see a narc in action, check out thread about jealous school mums...

easilybruised79 · 01/10/2010 15:24

Stay away from people like that.

She sounds like a vampire!!!

You are doing the right thing by decreasing the visits, hopefully she wil take the hint!!

New posts on this thread. Refresh page